AEHD Suggestion Thread -

Nepsotic · #61 02-21-2016, 03:53 AM

Exactly, people suggesting shit on facebook don't know what they're talking about, they should be BURNED at the STAKE.

Manco · #62 02-21-2016, 04:04 AM

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According to NnT developers, it wasn't possible or was too hard. It was so stupid.

OK but seriously how do you make shadows work in 3D? Because the whole reason they changed it is that it’d be completely obvious that Abe was standing there from any perspective other than side-on. Sure, add in other concealment visuals that aren’t just smoke vents, but shadows as they were in the original game simply don’t make sense in 3D.

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Scrolling text signs that are black with color text like they were in the original, not orange with black text

Adding to this, less neon-lights-sci-fi aesthetic in general.

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For me, New N' Tasty is pretty good on a visual level and enjoyable to play, for the most part. But every time I pick it up, I feel so let down when I start a slog chase and just barely hear this

Oh that reminds me, the audio mix in NnT can be godawful sometimes. Sound effects are way too loud and completely drown out all the voice audio and music.

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AO had that joke too. At the end of the day dark, scary and realistic just isn't Oddworld. AO was dark and tense, but I wouldn't call it particularly scary, or realistic. Ever since then the tone set down has been really different, and that's just what the vision for Oddworld is now.

I don’t really agree with you there, there’s an army of people out there who will tell you that Oddworld games frightened them when they first played. As for realism, yeah a game featuring alien creatures in alien environments is never going to be realistic, but AO and AE definitely had a ‘grounded’ feel to them – the creatures had some well thought-out anatomy and backstory, all the environments had a natural or lived-in feel, and pretty much everything felt like it obeyed the laws of gravity and physics to a much more realistic degree than most other games.

Varrok · #63 02-21-2016, 04:07 AM

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OK but seriously how do you make shadows work in 3D? Because the whole reason they changed it is that it’d be completely obvious that Abe was standing there from any perspective other than side-on. Sure, add in other concealment visuals that aren’t just smoke vents, but shadows as they were in the original game simply don’t make sense in 3D.

Last time I checked NnT had a scripted camera that you couldn't rotate or move by yourself. Unless that changed, your comment on this makes little to no sense.

Vlam · #64 02-21-2016, 04:12 AM

Scrabaniac: one last thing. Read Phylum's post about AO's tone. Holy Sock, a long time ago, said something convincing: in Lanning's mind, the original game should have been NnT, not AO. So the darker tone you liked wasn't "intended". So a darker TzF isn't going to happen. I should make a thread about it.

Varrok · #65 02-21-2016, 04:17 AM

Lorne said something like that, but that might have been just a marketing speech. We do not know whether Lanning is really satisfied with the remake

Holy Sock · #66 02-21-2016, 04:23 AM

Would a grid system even really work right? I know the puzzles are originally designed around this system. If OWI are going to move forward with sidescrolling Abe they need to completely redesign how Abe moves with his envrionment and the type of puzzles you see in this new system.

But if they try and add the grid system will it not make Abe feel more stiff and awkward? If you're playing a sidescrolling platformer I imagine a lot of players will get frustrated with this limited movement - even though the originals were designed around it.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not sure.

Tone wise - eh, I don't see why Oddworld shouldn't have silly humour balance out it's serious themes. it stops the thing from being preachy - and it fits since we're dealing with exaggerated concepts and caricatures. Both AE and SW have a nice blend of humour and drama.

Also, I like how vlam is some sort of militant suggestion supervisor. Remember, OWI! Only consider suggestions with that vlam seal of approval!

Nepsotic · #67 02-21-2016, 04:25 AM

Who cares what's likely or not? Suggest whatever the fuck you want. Shut up, Vlam.

Vlam · #68 02-21-2016, 04:27 AM

Varrok, I don't believe it was a marketing speech. In fact, NnT's cutscenes, disliked by most of the fans (for being too cartoonish) are very close to the original material (the storyboards of 1997). It was an interesting debate between Holy Sock and Slog Bait.

Varrok · #69 02-21-2016, 04:31 AM

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Would a grid system even really work right? I know the puzzles are originally designed around this system. If OWI are going to move forward with sidescrolling Abe they need to completely redesign how Abe moves with his envrionment and the type of puzzles you see in this new system.

But if they try and add the grid system will it not make Abe feel more stiff and awkward? If you're playing a sidescrolling platformer I imagine a lot of players will get frustrated with this limited movement - even though the originals were designed around it.

1. Abe in NnT is stiff and awkward.
2. Of course it would work! It worked in AO an AE.
3. There are a lot of players that are frustrated with NnT's "little steps" and inaccuraties.

Also, I think you guys are too hard on vlam. He made some regrettable posts in the past, but I think he's trying to take it more maturely now. I'm serious.

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Varrok, I don't believe it was a marketing speech. In fact, NnT's cutscenes, disliked by most of the fans (for being too cartoonish) are very close to the original material (the storyboards of 1997). It was an interesting debate between Holy Sock and Slog Bait.

I said that because Lorne said that before NnT was released. There's a general rule that you don't talk critically about your product after a looong time after release. Even if he thought it was dissapointing, he was forbidden to tell that in public. It'd be an economical suicide.

Holy Sock · #70 02-21-2016, 04:31 AM

The NnT cutscenes were pretty much exactly like the original. They were just brighter and glossy. Not cartoonish. Abe tripping, and his reaction to New 'n' Taty to a lesser degree, are about the only goofy things they actually added.

EDIT: Yeah, he feels awkward Varrok, but with analog movement I imagine players want a full range of movement. They should fine tune Abe's response but taking it back to the grid system might be frustrating. I wouldn't know though unless we obviously had an example.

Vlam · #71 02-21-2016, 04:35 AM

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The NnT cutscenes were pretty much exactly like the original. They were just brighter and glossy. Not cartoonish. Abe tripping, and his reaction to New 'n' Taty to a lesser degree, are about the only goofy things they actually added.

Which wasn't "added", just sticking to the original storyboard (AO made it less goofy).

Varrok · #72 02-21-2016, 04:36 AM

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The NnT cutscenes were pretty much exactly like the original. They were just brighter and glossy. Not cartoonish. Abe tripping, and his reaction to New 'n' Taty to a lesser degree, are about the only goofy things they actually added.

EDIT: Yeah, he feels awkward Varrok, but with analog movement I imagine players want a full range of movement. They should fine tune Abe's response but taking it back to the grid system might be frustrating. I wouldn't know though unless we obviously had an example.

They're overally similar, but these small segments feel significant because it was the only new thing about the cutscenes. They added scenes that are goofy. I don't think they added any scenes that aren't goofy.

Manco · #73 02-21-2016, 04:37 AM

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Last time I checked NnT had a scripted camera that you couldn't rotate or move by yourself. Unless that changed, your comment on this makes little to no sense.

There’s two key differences between the AO camera and the NnT camera:

In AO the camera angle is always completely perpendicular to the path Abe is travelling on, while in NnT the camera is often offset at slight angles.
In AO everything is rendered with 2D sprites from a completely flat perspective similar to orthographic projection, while NnT is rendered in true 3D with simulated perspective and depth.

What this means is that the environment in NnT has much more obvious depth and perspective to it, meaning that it would be much harder to trick the eye into believing that Abe is hidden by the shadow cast behind him – we would be able to see Abe’s form in 3D standing apart from the shadows, and this would make it seem absurd that the Sligs — who would be looking at Abe from the front or back and wouldn’t see any shadow behind him — couldn’t spot him.

Add to that the fact that NnT (and presumably AEHD) uses realtime lighting, and wouldn’t be able to make a totally-black shadow that Abe completely disappears in look good or realistic, and you have a seriously flawed visual. It’s better to remedy that by coming up with ways that Abe could realistically be hidden from all angles to achieve the same effect, rather than trying to slavishly stick to the original visual.

Does it always have to be smoke vents? Hell no. You could use thick plant coverage, thick bundles of hanging wires or pipework, masses of pipes protruding up from the floor; you could even have hollow 3D objects which are shadowy inside, like a half-pipe or alleyway, which would hide Abe from multiple perspectives. You could reverse it with poorly lit areas where enemies can only see you if you’re standing in the light (this could have worked well in the Free-Fire Zone). You could even mix it up by adding small piles of crates or rocks which Abe could hide among by crouching amongst.

Nepsotic · #74 02-21-2016, 04:39 AM

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Varrok, I don't believe it was a marketing speech. In fact, NnT's cutscenes, disliked by most of the fans (for being too cartoonish) are very close to the original material (the storyboards of 1997). It was an interesting debate between Holy Sock and Slog Bait.

I don't care what Lorne thought the original game should've been. It is what it is, and that's why we love it. Remember the Star Wars special editions? Yeah, that was what Lucas originally envisioned.

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Of course it would work! It worked in AO an AE.

It was also incorporated into the engines at a very early stage. It was also 1997.

Varrok · #75 02-21-2016, 04:40 AM

@Manco, Do you think the smoke worked in NnT? Were you unable to see characters in smoke?

Holy Sock · #76 02-21-2016, 04:41 AM

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They're overally similar, but these small segments feel significant because it was the only new thing about the cutscenes. They added scenes that are goofy. I don't think they added any scenes that aren't goofy.

They did. They took out that goofy scene of Abe hitting his head Looney tunes style and replaced it with the Scrab conveyor belt scene. Abe's reaction I can get behind. But Abe tripping over seems totally in line with Oddworld - even the tone of the original (which had slapstick humour and farting).

Honestly, I think people overblow how goofy NnT is though. Humourous idle chatter and ragdolls are about it.

The glossy and bright look of the game, the lack of tension, the lack of punch to character deaths contribute to a change in atmosphere. But as far as goofy humour there isn't really all that much added. You could tone it down in game - repetition of idle chatter is grating. But it's not like we saw the second coming of MO.

Nepsotic · #77 02-21-2016, 04:46 AM

It wasn't that far off, atmosphere-wise.

Also, let's remind people:

Manco · #78 02-21-2016, 04:47 AM

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@Manco, Do you think the smoke worked in NnT? Were you unable to see characters in smoke?

It’s still just possible to make out Abe through the smoke but it’s way more believable that he is concealed from view. The smoke could have been even thicker but then the player would completely lose sight of their character, which isn’t necessarily desirable.

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The glossy and bright look of the game, the lack of tension, the lack of punch to character deaths contribute to a change in atmosphere.

The pacing as well, it feels to me like cutscenes move at a much faster pace than before.

Varrok · #79 02-21-2016, 04:48 AM

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They did. They took out that goofy scene of Abe hitting his head Looney tunes style and replaced it with the Scrab conveyor belt scene. Abe's reaction I can get behind. But Abe tripping over seems totally in line with Oddworld - even the tone of the original (which had slapstick humour and farting).

Honestly, I think people overblow how goofy NnT is though. Humourous idle chatter and ragdolls are about it.

The glossy and bright look of the game, the lack of tension, the lack of punch to character deaths contribute to a change in atmosphere. But as far as goofy humour there isn't really all that much added. You could tone it down in game - repetition of idle chatter is grating. But it's not like we saw the second coming of MO.

I changed my mind. I think you're right. Maybe it's more about the gameplay.

Or maybe about music volume. I remember music was pretty silent in NnT and it plays a big role in atmosphere.

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It’s still just possible to make out Abe through the smoke but it’s way more believable that he is concealed from view. The smoke could have been even thicker but then the player would completely lose sight of their character, which isn’t necessarily desirable.

I really don't think it's believeable. Somehow I think that without the smoke Abe would be as visible as he was in.

Nepsotic · #80 02-21-2016, 04:57 AM

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It’s still just possible to make out Abe through the smoke but it’s way more believable that he is concealed from view. The smoke could have been even thicker but then the player would completely lose sight of their character, which isn’t necessarily desirable.

I like the idea that Slig visors are infrared and that Abe is concealed from view when he's in hot steam.

Manco · #81 02-21-2016, 04:58 AM

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I really don't think it's believeable. Somehow I think that without the smoke Abe would be as visible as he was in.

I disagree, I think it does a good job of concealing him, and it’s more realistic than a shadowed wall that only works from a single fixed camera angle.

But remember I’m not advocating for the continued use of smoke vents, at least not exclusively. They need to mix it up with more varied hiding places.

Holy Sock · #82 02-21-2016, 05:01 AM

Yeah, Varrok, like I always felt Slog chases packed no punch because the combination of music and sound effects never worked liked they did in the original. Sound design was really a major part of the original but it sort of became a cacophony in NnT.

I just assumed it would be more difficult for players to tell what was a Shadow Zone and what's a shadow created by real time lighting. I think it probably could be done - but perhaps it would take a lot more rethinking. In NnT it seems like they designed everything with shadow zones in mind but replaced it with steam late in development.

Varrok · #83 02-21-2016, 05:02 AM

But camera in NnT is almost as close to being fixed angle as can be. Especially in the hiding segments. It doesn't rotate much. The shadows would work. And it's not a first stealth game in 3D.

Many other, older games have succesfully created believable, hideable shadows. It's nothing more than an excuse because they didn't decide to put effort to details. Failed to create shadows? Let's replace every single one with a smoke particle generator.

Vlam · #84 02-21-2016, 05:16 AM

Nepsotic, I'm not talking about what you like or dislike: at the end, it's Lanning who decides. So AE's remake will not be less goofy than NnT. Sorry.

Jordan · #85 02-21-2016, 05:18 AM

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Nepsotic, I'm not talking about what you like or dislike: at the end, it's Lanning who decides. So AE's remake will not be less goofy than NnT. Sorry.

There. It's decided. No more discussion needed.

Nepsotic · #86 02-21-2016, 05:22 AM

Shut up, Vlam.

Anyway, like I said, it would make sense if the Slig visors were infrared. That explains why we can see them in steam when Sligs can't. I always thought it was dumb how Slig couldn't see Abe in shadows in AO. No shadow is that dark in a lit environment.

Vlam · #87 02-21-2016, 05:22 AM

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There. It's decided. No more discussion needed.

No, you are allowed to talk. I'm just warning you guys. After the release of AE's remake: "hey, that's not the game I wanted, why?".

Nepsotic · #88 02-21-2016, 05:42 AM

We already know it won't be the game we want. No game is perfect, except maybe Silent Hill 2.

Scrabaniac · #89 02-21-2016, 05:42 AM

No talking to fellow employees.

Varrok · #90 02-21-2016, 05:42 AM

Silent Hill 2 remake, you mean?