Oddworld without Lorne Lanning?

[Phylum]

I actually agree that the quintology doesn't have much relevance today. I mean think about it. We have two games of wildly different quality and tone, and there's no money for a third instalment that we know of. It's an old idea floating in the wind.

Now why Vlam is so angry about it is another question.

But OD man.

You guys.


Damn.

[Crashpunk]

Oddworld and the Quintology to me has always felt over ambitious. But that's just made it all the more compelling. Just that hope that more stories within Oddworld are told.

So with that being said, I think The Quintology could still happen. However I think if they do, they'll be condensed versions. At least the games will be. We might see Munch's Exoddus to start off then later Squeek.

I've always thought Oddworld would be a perfect fit for comics and graphic novels. Why not expand on the original ideas of the Quintology in canon, novel forms? It makes so much sense to me.

[Vlam]

Phylum, I am not angry.

Crashpunk, did Lanning talk about comics and graphic novels ? I don't remember.

[kjjcarpenter]

The more I listen to vlam, the more I actually kind of understand what he's saying. He's right. The Quintology means very little, in the context of five core games at least. I've always said to turn it into a book series with purdy pictures to flesh out the world, but I'm in a minority on that.

I think vlam, like the rest of us, just wants to have the story completed, and isn't willing to wait for the next hundred years to see it because Lorne is chronically over-ambitious. I don't care how I get the story anymore, just give it to me. Christ, most of us foamed at the mouth when reading Nate's interview with Lorne, because those tidbits gave us an idea of what would happen; they were a glimpse of the journey that we've been forbidden to take.

[Nate]

Incidentally, I always got the impression that Lorne never actually intended to make all five installments of the quintology as games. I figured he was hoping to hit it big with the first five, then move on to doing the movies.

[Holy Sock]

Whatever way you slice it, though, this is apparently a five part story. If Lorne decides to produce graphic novels that's great! I'm all for seeing the end of the story. But since OWI are focused on video games right now I don't see why Lorne shouldn't strive to make Squeek's Oddysee and move onto 4 and 5 if they get the ball rolling. If he has the ideas why not use them? If we're going the vidweo game route, then, I don't see why ending the series with a Squeek's Oddysee is going to be better - like vlam suggested. We're just going to end up with a rushed, skin deep storyline that never really got interesting.

We're not getting the fleshed out stories anyway - if I remember correctly he'd hoped to release each quintology as a game then as a movie.

And I don't think Oddworld would work as a novel series. The characters seem to be developed for a film medium. So far they're pretty simple allegorical tales but I don't think 300+ pages exploring the mind and internal struggle of Abe is really going to be interesting.

[kjjcarpenter]

And I don't think Oddworld would work as a novel series. The characters seem to be developed for a film medium. So far they're pretty simple allegorical tales but I don't think 300+ pages exploring the mind and internal struggle of Abe is really going to be interesting.

You solve that issue by adopting an omniscient narrator, and you include multiple core perspectives, because it wouldn't be Abe's story, he's just one of the pieces on the chess board. You also obviously develop the characters to be more becoming of a novel, but there's nothing inherent with Oddworld that prohibits it from being an adept novelisation.

The characters, as they currently stand, are not worthy of anything other than a video game anyway. They're exaggerated stereotypes with no depth, save for out-of-universe content. Abe, after all, is just a proxy for the player.

It would take a good author to manage the feat, but it could be done. Probably wouldn't be read by a large audience though. Unfortunately, this is where I think vlam is correct, because most of the fandom cares very little for the larger story, and if it's presented in any form other than a video game, it won't find an audience.

[Holy Sock]

I don't think so. The series could have possibly succeeded as a film series and would get legs as a series of graphics novels - particularly if the art is gorgeous. Novelisations akin to the Gears of War series, not so much.

I can't imagine, even with a bit of development, the characters and stories are strong enough to carry a novel - without getting further away from what makes Oddworld interesting. I think it would add a false depth to some of these characters who don't really need it - or shouldn't be explored too deeply - just to fill pages. It definitely seems like s world built for visual storytelling. I just don't think you could really write something that impressive out of them. Maybe they'd make some light, fun reading like reading the novelisation of the Spider-Man movie but I feel like it would be the medium least suited to telling the definitive story.

Although maybe everyone else disagrees.

[kjjcarpenter]

I don't think so. The series could have possibly succeeded as a film series and would get legs as a series of graphics novels - particularly if the art is gorgeous. Novelisations akin to the Gears of War series, not so much.

I can't imagine, even with a bit of development, the characters and stories are strong enough to carry a novel - without getting further away from what makes Oddworld interesting. I think it would add a false depth to some of these characters who don't really need it - or shouldn't be explored too deeply - just to fill pages. It definitely seems like s world built for visual storytelling. I just don't think you could really write something that impressive out of them. Maybe they'd make some light, fun reading like reading the novelisation of the Spider-Man movie but I feel like it would be the medium least suited to telling the definitive story.

Although maybe everyone else disagrees.

In my opinion, Harry Potter has some of the weakest stereotypes in literature, and the world-building is remedial at best, yet it's one of the most popular series ever conceived.

Have you ever read The Dark Tower? It is truly a visual masterpiece portrayed with the power of words, The Gunslinger particularly. I'm biased about this, but the written word is far more poignant that any visual medium. Dune falls into the same category, because when you read that book, you truly feel that world. I always need to keep a cup of water beside me when I delve into those books.

You don't need to create false depth, you just tell the story, and there's more than enough to work with. What exactly prohibits the story from being fleshed out in a novel? I mean, at the end of the day it's going to be an objective opinion based upon preferences, but a novel isn't just characters.

When I read a novel, I break my enjoyment of it into five categories: Characters, Worldbuilding, Story, Style and Execution. As far as I'm concerned, anyone can spin a fine enough tale with just three of those categories, though the more developed each one is, the better the experience will be. Even if Oddworld failed with characters, the construction of the world wouldn't likely suffer, nor would the story arc, and the style would be completely dependent on the chosen author. The execution of the story would also depend on several factors, but it's definitely possible to forge a cohesive, entertaining narrative, regardless of the characters.

[Holy Sock]

I just don't think it's suited to the medium. Without a human element you really need to get readers invested in your story - and characters are a big part of this - particularly if you're telling a 5 part tale. Since there's no foundation of human relationships to build off of you have to sell the world to your audience. And is the message of Oddworld really enough to carry a novel by itself? If it was a one off commentary on the state of our world you could probably get away with the broad allegorical nature of it. Maybe a little like Animal Farm. Then I feel you're going to be peeling back layers on characters that are probably best left as broader caricatures. I think it would also be much easier to sell the balance of humour/dark themes in more visual mediums.

I just don't think a series of novels is going to be all that compelling. I don't think it's that type of story.

[kjjcarpenter]

But the themes alone wouldn't carry the story across a film or a series of novels either. Both would need to greatly expand the scope of the characters, the stories and the world to fit into either of those visual mediums and hold the audience for an hour plus. The only reason the video games got away with it, is because it's an interactive medium. For most people, that means the gameplay comes first, and you can disregard deep characters because you're constantly involved. Once again, Abe is a proxy.

I do appreciate what you're saying, and it would make a hell of a movie, I agree, but there is going to be more to the purely visual experience than "communism bad, nature good" and a blank slate of a main character.

[Holy Sock]

Ah but my point would be that you can create a story akin to the quality of a pixar animation with Oddworld. Reading that script map or whatever a while a go revealed that the plot for the Abe's Oddysee film was already a lot more complex. I just think novels require a demand that the Odworld quintology should probably just stay away from - because I think it would work better as an animation, movie, and (less so) a comic book.

[Alf Shall Rise]

I can't see Oddworld working as a novel series. It wouldn't stimulate the senses at all. Games have worked great in that regard because they offer visuals, sounds, music, etc. I'm sure there are people who'd disagree with this, but the atmosphere of something is always way more powerful if it's actually directly displayed to the audience, rather than just described in detail in a novel. Losing that aspect of Oddworld would kind of just...kill a lot of it, at least for me.

Movies would obviously be a much better alternative but that's more than just a little ambitious at this point, as is the quintology. Maybe eventually we'll get to that point but right now, it seems out of reach.

[kjjcarpenter]

Ah but my point would be that you can create a story akin to the quality of a pixar animation with Oddworld. Reading that script map or whatever a while a go revealed that the plot for the Abe's Oddysee film was already a lot more complex. I just think novels require a demand that the Odworld quintology should probably just stay away from - because I think it would work better as an animation, movie, and (less so) a comic book.

I definitely agree that it would be fantastic as a movie, possibly better, after all it's a matter of taste, but given the option between having no continuation to the series or a novel series, I think the few people who care would opt for the novels. To me, it just seems like a cost-effective solution to appease the long-time fans. Not an easy solution, it would definitely take a writer of quality to do the atmosphere justice, but it could be done. There is definitely no loss of atmosphere when a writer has genuine skill; the trouble would be finding that particular writer of skill.

I'd argue for a graphic novel, possibly even more than a novel series though, simply because Lorne is an artist, and he'd be able to create a far better visual story that a literary one. I couldn't agree more on that front.

But, at the end of the day, we'll likely get neither movie, nor graphic novel, nor novel series.

[Varrok]

Don't we have an AE movie?

[Manco]

Personally I’ve always found books where all the characters are alien creatures to be very difficult to really enjoy. Since books lack the visual element it becomes a lot more difficult to describe unfamiliar creatures to the audience.

[Vlam]

Will Oddworld movies be worth it ? Do they have enough experience ? I mean, when you think about it, the cutscenes are fine because they are short. On the one hand, if Abe is as "superficial" as he is in the games, it could get boring. On the other, if he talks about his "feelings" (character development) then the whole movie might be cheesy and goofy. Munch, the "funny" sidekick, for example, has no depth ; how to make him interesting ? And what about the tone ? If it's the same one as Munch or NnT : it will be nothing more than a cartoon (also, the plot is pretty basic). It could explain why Lanning wanted to make Citizen Siege instead.

[Shade667]

Personally I’ve always found books where all the characters are alien creatures to be very difficult to really enjoy. Since books lack the visual element it becomes a lot more difficult to describe unfamiliar creatures to the audience.

Im the opposite. I love books with aliens and creatures as characters, lets my imagination do its thing.

I dont think Abe would work as a novel though.

[Nate]

Don't we have an AE movie?

Have you seen it? It's just the FMVs from AE with a half-arsed framing introductory scene, with no coherent flow or tone. It really doesn't work as a stand-alone film.

Will Oddworld movies be worth it ? Do they have enough experience ? I mean, when you think about it, the cutscenes are fine because they are short. On the one hand, if Abe is as "superficial" as he is in the games, it could get boring.

As Holy Sock pointed out, the plot (and characterisation) for the Abe movie was a lot more complex than in the game. Lorne's plans have changed at various times, but at some point Abe wasn't even a slave but rather a fisherman whose life was affected by pollution put out by Rupturefarms. Another version had him being really empathetic towards animals, and he worked to help the animals escape, which is what led to the Glukkons choosing to use Muds as a food source.

[kjjcarpenter]

Another version had him being really empathetic towards animals, and he worked to help the animals escape, which is what led to the Glukkons choosing to use Muds as a food source.

I didn't know about this version. Interesting!

Personally I’ve always found books where all the characters are alien creatures to be very difficult to really enjoy. Since books lack the visual element it becomes a lot more difficult to describe unfamiliar creatures to the audience.

I'm not a big reader of science fiction—I dabble in the genre, but it's more of a guilty pleasure than anything else—so I've yet to encounter a book that included a purely alien cast. There's been alien creatures, such as in Saga of the Seven Suns, and in Asher's Polity novels, but I don't ever recall a core alien character, at least from my library. Humans are usually the focus, and rightly so, but I have every faith that it could be done. If Dante could take us to hell, heaven and what comes between, and if Tolkien could whisk us away to the world on the other side of ours, there's nothing stopping a talented author from taking us to an odd world far away.

The lack of a visual element is hardly detrimental anyway. Authors are authors because they can express a vision via language, a fair portion of them anyway. A good author can describe the indescribable, and the reader's imagination fills in the blanks. Regardless, as I've already said, including auxiliary drawings of Oddworld's people, places and things—such as Brandon Sanderson included within The Stormlight Archive—would solve any issues of perceptibility.

EDIT: I'd just like to emphasise that if you prefer a visual story to a literary one, that's fine, I'm not trying to attack anyone's preferences, merely trying to stress that a novel could definitely work with the right author and artist combination.

[Alf Shall Rise]

Have you seen it? It's just the FMVs from AE with a half-arsed framing introductory scene, with no coherent flow or tone. It really doesn't work as a stand-alone film.

Twelve year old me was so disappointed when he first saw this.

[Vlam]

Ok Nate, I didn't know. But the Abe you described is totally different from the games, so what about the canon ?

Varrok was fooling around.

[Varrok]

It's one of the rare cases when I was 100% serious. There's an AE movie. I watched it, yes. It wasn't good, yes. I wasn't dissapointed because I didn't know there's an AE movie till I stumbled upon it on the internet. I had no hype to lose.

[Vlam]

So are you saying that OWI couldn't make a good movie ?

[Manco]

I'm not a big reader of science fiction—I dabble in the genre, but it's more of a guilty pleasure than anything else—so I've yet to encounter a book that included a purely alien cast. There's been alien creatures, such as in Saga of the Seven Suns, and in Asher's Polity novels, but I don't ever recall a core alien character, at least from my library. Humans are usually the focus, and rightly so, but I have every faith that it could be done. If Dante could take us to hell, heaven and what comes between, and if Tolkien could whisk us away to the world on the other side of ours, there's nothing stopping a talented author from taking us to an odd world far away.

The lack of a visual element is hardly detrimental anyway. Authors are authors because they can express a vision via language, a fair portion of them anyway. A good author can describe the indescribable, and the reader's imagination fills in the blanks. Regardless, as I've already said, including auxiliary drawings of Oddworld's people, places and things—such as Brandon Sanderson included within The Stormlight Archive—would solve any issues of perceptibility.

The key point is that Dante had a human protagonist exploring Hell, and Tolkien had a variety of characters and cultures in his stories they were all very comparable to humans and human cultures. The least comparable creatures are always the antagonist, and aren’t explored thoroughly because their difference is what makes them effective antagonists.

If your story hinges on understanding an alien culture it makes more sense revealing that to your audience in ways that they find easier to process and understand. A short video clip of a living creature in motion conveys information about it far more effectively than a text summary.

EDIT: I'd just like to emphasise that if you prefer a visual story to a literary one, that's fine, I'm not trying to attack anyone's preferences, merely trying to stress that a novel could definitely work with the right author and artist combination.

I’d honestly prefer a visual story and I think that’s what Oddworld is best-suited to. The vast majority of the creatures and environments in any Oddworld story would be much better conveyed in visual form than in text. I’m not saying a novel couldn’t work, but it’s not the best way to convey those stories.

Ok Nate, I didn't know. But the Abe you described is totally different from the games, so what about the canon ?

Who says there needs to be one canon?

[Varrok]

So are you saying that OWI couldn't make a good movie ?

OWI is like a few people now, so I guess they can't without outsourcing most of the stuff.

And we know how good they're at outsourcing things, MO PC

[Vlam]

Who says there needs to be one canon?

I don't understand. I mean, isn't Oddworld supposed to be one cohesive universe ? Furthermore, it might confuse the people.

[Manco]

I don't understand. I mean, isn't Oddworld supposed to be one cohesive universe ? Furthermore, it might confuse the people.

Lord of the Rings has the books, and the movies based on the books. They are separate canons, based on the same universe.

Similarly, Oddworld could have a series of games and a series of movies, telling the same/similar stories based on the same universe but with different canons. No one has ever said that every piece of media based on Oddworld must conform to the same canon or universe.

[Vlam]

Well, about Lord of the Rings : the real canon are the books (the things who are made by Tolkien). You are talking about book's adaptation.

In Lanning's mind, I suppose the Oddworld movies could be the real canon (if Abe is more complex and totally different from the games).

[Manco]

There’s no such thing as a ‘real canon’, just the canon you as the audience prefer.