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  #61  
10-12-2006, 06:20 PM
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Hoo boy, there's a lot going on here.

:
Nowhere in the bible, new or old testament, does it say that god hates gay people.
Leviticus 18:22"'You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman. That is an abomination"

:
Nowhere does it say that gay people can't marry
Well, it does specify that marriage is a contract berween a man and a woman.

:
and neither does it say that interspecie relations are bad for that matter.
Leviticus 18:23: "'You shall not lie with any animal to defile yourself with it; neither shall any woman give herself to an animal, to lie down with it: it is a perversion."

:
Also, where in the bible does it say that us humans are the judge jury and exocutioner of everything that is (supposedly) marked bad in the bible?
I don't have a direct quote on this one, but there is a verse in Deutoronomy where God says, effectively, that he has given His law and it is now owned and controlled by Man.

:
If my memory serves my right, the first rule on the 10 commandmends was: Thy shall not kill.
Sixth, but you're close.

:
Nowhere in my memory do I recall anything remotely close to: Thy shall throw hard solid rocks at a faggot untill he is five different kinds of dead.
Leviticus 20:13 "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

This post is not in support of religion. It is merely a post in detraction of people who talk out of their arses.
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Last edited by Nate; 10-13-2006 at 07:56 AM..
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  #62  
10-13-2006, 12:46 AM
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Okay fair enough. Still however... killing is against the rules. Then again the bible is one big book of contradictions, but come on.
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  #63  
10-13-2006, 01:22 AM
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Actually, the commandment is against murder. There was a death penalty, though the legal process was so strict that it was rarely performed.
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  #64  
10-13-2006, 05:07 AM
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It doesn't actually specify murder... unless it did in the original scripts, before translation. It says kill.
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  #65  
10-13-2006, 07:57 AM
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Eh, that's the problem with translations, you can lose some of the subtleties. Certainly, given what I said about the death penalty, the sixth commandment is directed at the individual rather than the judicial system.
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  #66  
10-13-2006, 08:01 AM
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Oh, god people.

Can't we all just settle 'round ye old bonfire and sacrifice virgins to Shub-Niggurath, The Black Goat Of A Thousand Young?

Hey, you atleast get a good deal on black cloaks with hoods.
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  #67  
10-13-2006, 08:25 AM
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"Angel of Disease! The one who shuns the light! (Whammy bar!) Shub- Nigurrath, Goat with...ONE THOUSAND YOUNG!"
I think its interesting how Jewish culture changed from warlike to more of a "Justice" based system and then was co-opted to satisfy people's needs for a more personal Messiah the religion follows that pattern. Culture making God instead of God making culture, you know?
The afterlife beliefs from the beginning of the OT to the NT are pretty interesting, too.
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  #68  
10-13-2006, 08:35 AM
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I like ol' Tsthusogga ( Spelling wrong) myself, he is a lazy git who hasn't moved fer ages. Whats not to like?
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  #69  
10-13-2006, 08:40 AM
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  #70  
10-13-2006, 08:54 AM
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Hmm, I like the Quake 1 depiction of Shub-Niggurath. We should all pray for Shamblers to come and protect us!
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  #71  
10-13-2006, 09:03 AM
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pfft, its not really Shub-Niggurath. More like a mere one of her young.
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  #72  
10-13-2006, 09:18 AM
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This thread got real stupid, real fast.
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  #73  
10-13-2006, 09:32 AM
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Might as well rename it:

" Exhultation and adoration of the Great Old Ones."
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10-13-2006, 09:49 AM
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  #75  
10-13-2006, 09:55 AM
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Fool! Once Formalhaut rises, Cthuga shall pour living fire upon the Works of Nyarlathrotep!
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  #76  
10-13-2006, 09:57 AM
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Ia Ia Cthulhu Ftagn!
Eh, more of a Azathoth or Nyarlathotep guy myself. How could you not love something called Seething Nuclear Chaos? Thats badass.
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  #77  
10-13-2006, 10:03 AM
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Foul worshipper of Nyarlathrotep! Don't make me summon Cthuga, who is a big ball of fire who burns Nyartlathroteps' stuff.
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  #78  
10-13-2006, 10:12 AM
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Back on topic, there are a few books making waves in religion. The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Its pretty good, he preaches to the choir in it quite a bit, though. If you're a fan of the older stuff check it out, but it isn't really a must buy. Another one is Tempting Faith. Its about how the right wing has been snowjobbing Christians and ought to be mandatory reading for the schmucks who voted for Bush and said things like "He's such a moral man" and "You know he'll do the Christian thing!"
I've said it before and I'm going to say it again: Everything about Bush is contrived, from the "Southern" twang, to his "Aw shucks, even though I'm a multimillionaire from a dynastic family I'm just like you!" schtick. He often does this wearing one set of clothes and shoes that costs more than Joe Average has spent on clothes in the last 2 decades. This "religion" is no different. He's just a vote whoring poseur and he never delivers.
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  #79  
10-13-2006, 10:20 AM
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I could tell you that. The 12 yr old rude idiot could tell you that.
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  #80  
10-13-2006, 02:41 PM
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Yes. Bush is no kind of example, and we should have found someone better.
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  #81  
10-13-2006, 03:05 PM
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That is the only thing religion is. An excuse so you can say that you understand what no-one CAN understand.
That is also Science. Science tries to take something we don't understand and make us understand it, and in the case of quantum mechanics or "advanced [blank] [blank] of [blank]" we never will understand it.

As for ID vs. Evo.

...they're both theories. ID is a lot less scientificaly sound, but Evo hasn't {and possibly can't} be proven scientificaly {ID can almost be disproven scientificaly; that's how unsound it is}.
Now, there's also a subtle difference between "teaching ID" and "telling people God created everything". ID has a right to be in text-books. It does not have any right to be called "the truth" or "what happened". I don't know the fine detailes of what happened in the states, but from doing 1 year of biology I know that questions on the origion of life are always left open and any theory that is accepted can be given as an answer {whether it's lightning, a meteor, or probably ID.}

Last edited by Adder; 10-13-2006 at 03:08 PM..
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  #82  
10-13-2006, 03:38 PM
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That is also Science. Science tries to take something we don't understand and make us understand it, and in the case of quantum mechanics or "advanced [blank] [blank] of [blank]" we never will understand it.

As for ID vs. Evo.

...they're both theories. ID is a lot less scientificaly sound, but Evo hasn't {and possibly can't} be proven scientificaly {ID can almost be disproven scientificaly; that's how unsound it is}.
Now, there's also a subtle difference between "teaching ID" and "telling people God created everything". ID has a right to be in text-books. It does not have any right to be called "the truth" or "what happened". I don't know the fine detailes of what happened in the states, but from doing 1 year of biology I know that questions on the origion of life are always left open and any theory that is accepted can be given as an answer {whether it's lightning, a meteor, or probably ID.}
Oh dear. You are stepping in quicksand that won't let go. You have been taken in by classic misconceptions, and also basic flaws of educational systems everywhere, which is not your fault.

ID has the right ot be in textbooks. It does not have any right to be in science class or textbooks, as science has no room for supernatural "explainations". It is strictly evidence based. Of course, it is open for debate and changes with the evidence, so it is theoretically possible that God can become science should prove be found of His existance. However, by definition he can't, as God cannot be scientifically proved or disproved, proof denies faith ergo proof of God is proof against God yada yada yada.

One year of Biology is not going to give you any real insights or understanding of evolution (which, btw, does not include hypotheses on the origin of life, though many ideas are mutually dependant). New discoveries take so long to trickle into mainstream education, Biology in schools is now 30 years old, and while it provides the basic principles, it is now known that all the details taught in school are wrong.

:
"evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
Theory in the scientific meaning is is an attempt to identify and describe relationships between phenomena or things, and generates falsifiable predictions which can be tested through controlled experiments and empirical observation. The common usage is misleading, and comes closer to hypothesis

:
Speculative or conjectural explanations tend to be called hypotheses, and well tested explanations, theories. Fact tends to mean a datum, an observation, i.e., a fact is obtained by a fairly direct observation. However, a fact does not mean absolute certainty; in science, fact can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." A theory is obtained by inference from a body of facts. Fact and theory denote the epistemological status of knowledge; how the knowledge was obtained, what sort of knowledge it is.

In this scientific sense, "facts" are what theories attempt to explain. So, for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not stand in opposition, but rather exist in a reciprocal relationship; for example, it is a "fact" that an apple will fall to the ground if it becomes dislodged from a branch and the "theory" which explains this is the current theory of gravitation. In the same way, heritable variation, natural selection, and response to selection (e.g. in domesticated plants and animals) are "facts", and the generalization or extrapolation beyond these phenomena, and the explanation for them, is the "theory of evolution".
It is true that ID is on shakier ground than Tokyo city on a bad day, and this largely comes down to starting with an idea and trying to prove it, which is completely the oppostite way that science operates, and failing to find conclusive evidence, attempts to draw holes in the opposing theories (unfortunately for all involved, drawing attention to gaps long since patched up, and common misconceptions)

There is plenty of concrete evidence for the current conglomerate of theories, facts, priciples and explainations known commonly as Evolution, but it would take too many lifetimes now to learn it all (too many= >1)

When being educated in such ideas, people enter a phase in deveolpment when they are no longer receptive to new ideas, so trying to convince anyone towards a diffrent way of thinking is usually a fools errand.


Quantum physics? Science was made to attempt to understand the way the universe works. It was began when it was beleive that the universe had an understandable order and purpose, and at first discoveries did just that. But in modern times we are learning that the universe is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine, and so the "understanding" (if such a word can still be applied) of it has grown incredibly complex, so no one can hope to grasp the Entire Concept of the Whole Sort of General Mish Mash we call the universe.

The best you can do is hope that you will some day understand the front line of your respective discipline.
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  #83  
10-13-2006, 03:38 PM
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Ugh.
Evo Theory has got plenty of evidence.

The Fossil record, carbon dating, the fact the species have been observed to evolve, all that stuff.

Do alittle digging, and its there.\

ID, however, has nothing except the bible. No other proof that doesn't also work for Evo theory.
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  #84  
10-13-2006, 04:10 PM
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Like Bullet Magnet explained, EVO would take too long to study and it is almost impossible to get the idea and exact steps perfectly right.
Also, as far as I know, ID does only have the bible. But things may not evolve into completely different things either. I personally think that they have the ability to adapt to certain changes, and then grow from there.
They would still be the same thing, but with different minor adaptions depending on what went on at the time of this adaption.
Another interesting thing to add is if we evolved from ape or monkeys, then why didn't they change as well?
but again, people can believe what they want to believe in depending on their view of things, but it's nearly impossible to completely prove one idea or the other.
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  #85  
10-13-2006, 05:01 PM
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They have changed. Into what we see today.

We didn't evelove from any of them, but we share a common ancestor. The fossil record (at least what we have found so far) isn't clear on what it loooked like, but suffice to say it would have been quite unlike both the ape species and the human species, base on extrapolation.

And "believing" in evolution undermines its cause. Science is not a matter of faith, it just comes down to which opposing scientific theories you take to be most accurate, based on the evidence available. The current theory of evolution (via Natural Selection and all that jazz... genes and such like) is the only currently available explaination for the diversity and origin of modern life (and evidence of past forms) based upon sound scientific data. And so it is.

Another common misconception is that science "proves" ideas and theories. Nothing is proven. That grass is green is not proven. But it is the best conclusion drawn from the evidence that we have accumulated. Evidence is found, and theories are drafted, tested, modified or retired as required.

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I don't like scientists on my committees. Give them some more data, and they change their minds!
Some people (especially politicians) wouldn't even realise this was a joke.
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  #86  
10-14-2006, 02:13 AM
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The core idea of ID as I know it {from not learning, but only hearing about it} is this: "Life's too complex to have begun spontaniously".
I know Evo doesn't deal with the origin of life, since it only deals with life changing and life does not come spontaniously from non-life. Evo doesn't deal with the start; it only kicks in when things get going. In the list of theories/hypotheses of how that proto-cell got together, ID is valid to some degree (assuming "the designer" made a very small bacterium, or a simple cell). It's actualy easier to believe than, say... "lightning causing molecules to bond togheter in the atmosphere, which then fell into the ocean and rolled around on the tidal shore for a while before becoming alive". It's also impossible to prove or find evidence of (which makes it very bad science).
The other ideas on the beginnings of life can be conceived through chemistry and biology, so they have a far better chance of being provable and accepted.
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10-14-2006, 03:30 AM
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Impossible to prove: perhaps. Especially since everything technically is. But reproducing possibilties in the laboratory goes some way to explaining it. But we don't know the exact chemistry of the Hadean/Archean world, and it is likely there were far more organic molecules around. Carbon can quite naturally form complex molecules (at least relative to most others, in terms of carbon we are talking about very simple structures), and once a self replicating one occurs, then evolution kicks in before life has truly begun.

Note: the following is not nesseccarily an accurate haypothsis, but it gives you a good idea. I'm sure you've all heard of phospholipids. The trigliceride with one of it's three fatty acid chains replaced by a phosphorus atom. Phospholipids have a hydrophillic (attracted to water) "head" and a hydrophobic (repelled by water) "tail". So in water they tend to form globules, with the heads on the outside and the tails on the inside. Now, with more lipids they might form a sheet, made from a double layer of lipids (like our own cell membranes). Now sheets would not last, thoey would very quickly fold over into closed spheres. If it happened to envelop a molecule of DNA, then you would have something not unlike a virus. Still not alive, but on it's way.

It is now suspected that the moon had a strong influence on the development of life. Mostly via the tides. (the moon would have been much closer to the Earth then, it has been spiralling away since it formed)
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  #88  
10-14-2006, 09:46 PM
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Ok, since this is my 1000thpost, I thought i'd do something serious. And by serious, I mean by pretending there are no posts at all before mine and give my take on the topic.

In my mind, religion has extremely gone overboard in some ways. But in others, it has absolutely gone overboard in the right way.

In the wrong way, I will start with Harry Potter attempted book bannings by the Christians and Catholics. Say what they will about 'teaching children the way of the devil and witchcraft', it does not make any sense to me. Harry Potter only teaches children about the devil and witchcraft if the Bible is teaching us to die for other people's mistakes. Harry Potter, at least to me, is not inciting me to run around, pointing polished sticks at people I don't like and screaming 'AVADA KEDAVRA'. It is not making me want to fall on my knees before the Devil, god forbid, either. In fact, Harry Potter has given me numerous inspiration for school papers on this very subject, as well as some short story ideas. If anything at all, Harry Potter has given me A's instead of 'All hail the great Gilvon, Daemon of Hell's.

Another bad point is the seemingly incredible amount of energy used trying to force people into converting to their religion. Take Christians and Catholics again. They go around, spouting nonsense that 'no book should be read but the Bible', and telling you to take the Lord's way anytime they can. Also, look at the Muslim religion. Some of them hate other religions so much they kill each other over it.

One more thing brings us back to Muslim religion. The religion makes some of them so brainwashed they kill themselves to 'get rid of the infindels'. Look at the total shitstorm the middle east is over it. Always fighting over it. It appals the average person. I'm not saying all muslims are like this, though. I happen to know a few muslims, and they are very kind and nice people. Same with some of today's buisnessmen. You don't see them pouring all of their funds into 'cleansing the earth of the infidels'.

There are good points for religions, as well. There are the Christian organizations that accept donations and supplies and send them all around the world. They help people who need help. All religions have, in some way or another, given hope or hapiness to the people involved in it. Religions band together when people need those things, and give it.

So, for better or worse, religions are here to say. Hurting, or healing. You decide. Me? I just calls em as I sees em.

Wow. That was a long 1k post. Oh yeah.

YEAH!!!111one11!!!! ONE THOUSAND POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TITLE, HERE I COME!
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  #89  
10-15-2006, 07:56 AM
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...And a very good long post. I agree with you on those topics. Especially about the part with Harry Potter being a book that "teaches children of the devil and witch craft." People need to stop taking things as attacks on their religion, and stop going overboard about the little things.
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  #90  
10-15-2006, 03:08 PM
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:
There are good points for religions, as well. There are the Christian organizations that accept donations and supplies and send them all around the world. They help people who need help. All religions have, in some way or another, given hope or hapiness to the people involved in it. Religions band together when people need those things, and give it.
Hm, I remember a story where an orginisation like that went to the disaster area after the tsunami, and offered food and water IF the inhabitants would convert their beliefs. Obviously, everyone said 'F*ck you hard in the ass' and the orginisation just took the food and water and took off again.

And while we are on the subject of cruelness. What kind of a cruel bastard is god anyway? Why would you want to worship someone that threats the entire world like a f*cking game of The Sims? You know, The Sims? Where we enjoy playing god by setting or characters on fire or putting them in a pool and taking away the ladder?
I always hear: God loves you! God Loves Your Soul!
Well... if he loves everyone so much, then explain to me this. Why does god create gay people and then says they should be killed? (I bet he's realy cracking up over that one, I know I would). Why does god give you the uncontrolable urge to have sex and then says: Sex is bad, you will burn in hell forever if you have sex. Is he some sadistic bastard that just enjoys watching people struggle with contradicting rules? Why would god create ME if loving animals... the way I do... is so extremely wrong? Maybe he is some sort of pervert himself and gets off on watching me get nifty with tigers. Yea thats probably it, the dirty old man.
When I die and there is a heaven and a hell, I demand that I can go up to heaven for a minute so I can give god some ideas on what to do to humanity next. Like... 'Thy shall not eat nacho's for nacho's are a sin and you shall burn in hell if you eat them...' Then I would just take away all the food in the world and flood the world with nacho's! That's what I would do if I sat in gods chair and I'd seriously laugh my ass off. And that's probably what he's doing, just laughing at all of the stupidity and hilarious situations.
'Gay's are bad! Here have some gays!'
'Sex is bad! Go f*ck your girlfriend!'

And don't tell me that god isn't sadistic. More people have died in the name of Jezus then people killed by Hitler, Stalin, Saddam and Bush combined! Even though technicaly the latter is also in the name of Jezus... Kindoff.
Conclusion: God is a sadistic bastard. And damn would I love to hear the counter arguments on this one.
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Last edited by Havoc; 10-15-2006 at 03:51 PM..
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