The Fuck?

[kjjcarpenter]

I know this is a wee bit tongue-in-cheek but surely that's how it should always be Connell? Although creatives always know where they could have improved on a project the leads of any game should always be happy with the final product. They should make something they're proud of and hope people react positively.

Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. This isn't our world, we're being invited into it, and we have no right to say what should or shouldn't exist here.

[Connell]

You come on to a forum of fans that have waited 17 years for a decent game to be made, with endless discussions about every minor detail pertaining to the series, and you expect no one to think they know what's best? Whether this sense of self-entitlement is misplaced or not, it's there.

No one is claiming to have the definitive answer, it's just people care about these games, and they discuss what they think would be right. It's great Lorne has his product he wanted, but some people have the opinion that it's not great. Such is life.

Honestly this is just the same old discussion that's been had a thousand times since N'n'T was announced. It's the George Lucas scenario and there's no escaping. People have opinions. Shock horror.

This place seriously makes me laugh. I think JAW should step away from it if they do an AE remake and let themselves make the decisions they think are right. Either way, people will discuss, and other people will be angry that someone disagrees with the creators.

[Slog Bait]

Honestly, if JAW does the exact same thing they did with NNT to an AE remake it will be the most spot on thing possible and I can't even fathom anyone genuinely talking down on it unless they didn't like AE to begin with. I can see people discussing tone here and there, but since the tone Oddworld wants to hold is the exact tone AE gave us and NNT continued, those discussions will be much more short lived than the NNT vs AO ones that we keep having.

I'm pretty sure out of every Oddworld game, AO is going to be the only one that suffers from George Lucas syndrome.

But yeah JAW, run far far away.

[kjjcarpenter]

You come on to a forum of fans that have waited 17 years for a decent game to be made, with endless discussions about every minor detail pertaining to the series, and you expect no one to think they know what's best? Whether this sense of self-entitlement is misplaced or not, it's there.

Being overly critical of something limits the experience, but to invest oneself and have poetic faith while understanding the creator's vision helps to forge a genuine relationship, inevitably making us better critics. Coleridge called it "the willing suspension of disbelief", but Tolkien insisted it was a "Primary Belief" or, to put it simply, "Enchantment". This is Lorne's vision, his original vision, so, yes, I expect a little leniency and understanding toward the product presented to us—although, after visiting this forum for almost thirteen years, I have to admit my expectations were probably a little over-drawn.

Unfortunately, we now live in an age perpetuated by negative criticism, with all of these "quasi-popular" internet critics constantly accentuating the negative. It's eroded the experience for so many people, whereby something like a burping meat grinder, or an exterior advertisement, becomes unbearable. This is the problem. Opinions don't concern me, it's the childish banter. It's pathetic.

I can't remember who said it, but there comes a point when the creator loses control of their work and it becomes the property of the fandom. They create their own scenarios, forge answers to their own questions, and ultimately decide what belongs in the universe and what does not. Unfortunately, it's both a blessing and a curse, as it breathes unfound life into a static universe, but it also puts a lot of strain upon the creator—they can no longer pertain to their vision without the inevitable backlash.

Oddworld lost primary control the moment they shut down their company back in 2005, and the fandom began to hypothesise on the future of the series. They'll probably never get it back now, and I agree, if JAW continues to create Oddworld games, they should steer well-away from this forum.

[HOMINIX]

Kjj, in regards to the exterior ads comment: if New n Tasty had been a shitty remake, you wouldn't hear me go on about the exterior ads. It's the fact that it's a gorgeus, faithful remake that might've been perfect in my eyes without them. It just seemed like a stain on a beautiful game that could've completely vanished had they gone about it a different way, rather than removing the ads entirely.

[kjjcarpenter]

Kjj, in regards to the exterior ads comment: if New n Tasty had been a shitty remake, you wouldn't hear me go on about the exterior ads. It's the fact that it's a gorgeus, faithful remake that might've been perfect in my eyes without them. It just seemed like a stain on a beautiful game that could've completely vanished had they gone about it a different way, rather than removing the ads entirely.

Although I don't agree with the viewpoint, I respectful heed your opinion!

It's probably obvious that I prefer to adhere to Tolkien's ideologies, and allow myself to be enchanted by the universe without the need for overt criticism over seemingly meaningless things. My fiancé begs me to refrain from participating in online discussions, because I'm rather radical in my views, but I just can't help myself.

It also doesn't help that Lorne is one of my idols/major inspirations, so my scales are indefinitely tipped toward his favour 99% of the time. I just don't appreciate the unnecessary criticism (nitpicks) of a remake that has, quite faithfully, reintroduced us to Oddworld.

[Slog Bait]

I like strong opinions and harsh criticism positive or negative nitpicky or not because it makes conversation more interesting and debates more heated

IT'S FUN and always a learning experience except when someone completely brick walls their way through the conversation

[Xavier]

I think the guys at JAW understand that we are nitpicking, they are not going to be heartbroken about it.

Again it's worth to put things into perspective. If the main complaints the people of this forum have for the game is that there is some slight shift in the mood of the game and some minor 4th wall breaking with in game adds then I think JAW did some amazing ass kicking game.

Seriously the game is almost perfection itself. I played it end to end and loved every part of it.

JAW has a major green light from me from the bottom of my heart to do exactly the same with Abe's Exoddus.

[OWI_Alex]

if JAW continues to create Oddworld games, they should steer well-away from this forum.

Not really sure how to reply to this, if indeed a reply was intended, but - yeah - some of the comments aren't always helpful or useful to us.

That said, there's a reason OWF is in the credits, and for the most part it's at the very least an interesting experience reading some of the posts here.

We'll see how it pans out longer term.

[Varrok]

OWF is in the credits

It is? Nice.

I'd say wherever fans are involved in creating a game, there's gonna be a lot of unhelpful thoughts/advices. Just try not to be discouraged by them.

[HOMINIX]

There's a reason OWF is in the credits, and for the most part it's at the very least an interesting experience reading some of the posts here.

I'd say just always remember that all of these criticisms on the forums come from a deep love for the games. We're all supporting you 100%, and you can't completely please everyone. Above any of our criticisms, THANK YOU for bringing Oddworld back, and doing it with such respect.

[Varrok]

See? Like this one.

god i am horrible

[Slog Bait]

Not horrible enough

PUSH HARDER

[Varrok]

I'll MULL THAT OVER

[Holy Sock]

Connell, I was just saying that it was a little silly sarcatically saying "as long as Lorne is happy that's all that matters" - even though it was a little tongue in cheek - since that's obviously not the case.

The same happened with Lucas. He thought he was genuinely making the movies better. Whether or not he did then becomes a matter for audiences to decide. That's the way it goes with everything. But the creators of the property should be happy with the product themselves. But there's no point in Lorne pushing forward a product which he knows is inferior. Just as if it was a new Oddworld game. I mean do you think the guys at Valve would release Left 4 Dead 2 and think "ugh, we're not really digging this but maybe our fans will like it?"

You want to create the best game you can and hope audiences respond positively. You can take fan suggestions, as JAW have clearly done for NnT, but ultimately it's about the devs and Lorne creating the game they want, they love, that they're fans of and then giving it to the rest of the world. I mean, the only reason we even have NnT is because the fans demanded it. There's always going to be some disparity between what the devs think is best and what some of the fans want. But I don't think, for a second, the development of NnT became "I like this change even though I think the majority of our fans will hate it - so it stays".

[HOMINIX]

See? Like this one.

god i am horrible

Not horrible enough

PUSH HARDER

On second thought, I fucking hate Abe's glowing eyes in New n Tasty. They completely break immersion, and get in the way of good story telling. Thanks for shitting all over my favorite game, JAW. Don't expect me to buy this piece of trash. How could you betray us like this?

[Varrok]

I'd say Glukkons' eyes aren't glowing ENOUGH in NnT. At least in the intro lol

[Xavier]

Aaaaaand back to topic please.

[Varrok]

Yeah... burping grinders.

Well...

Grinders don't burp.

They're mechanical and don't have a digestive system. Lorne/JAW thought it'd be funny if it burped. It wasn't. The same way that it wouldn't be funny if suddenly a wall started telling jokes to Abe. Even if the jokes weren't lame (They would be. This is a game, where the main source of humor is farting. And burping grinders.) the whole situation would feel stupid and awkward.

The topic is done. Can we go offtopic again now, please?

[Holy Sock]

The burp in the original wasn't subtle. Just a bit inaudible. JAW ain't taking Oddworld down the goofy gutter by making it more audible.

Then you get into OANST's reckoning that is these things adding fuel to the immersion breaking fire as a result of things like the 4th wall breaking ads in secret areas. Then you get into *that* conversation in order to establish whether is is throwing fuel onto the fire.

Then someone brings up George Lucas, Lorne's vision versus fan expectation, nitpicking, and then we're no longer talking about a burp but more about the deeper issues about why some members here have a big problem with it...

[Varrok]

The burp in the original wasn't subtle. Just a bit inaudible.

Type "subtle" in Google, please.
if you use Bing, don't speak to me again lol

[OWI_Alex]

The burp in the original wasn't subtle. Just a bit inaudible. JAW ain't taking Oddworld down the goofy gutter by making it more audible.

Yep, was definitely there in the original. Without going into too much detail about technicalities, all we did was make it more audible.

[Holy Sock]

Well Bing says, Varrok, nothing because it doesn't have a definition feature.

But subtle suggests there's a more clever or disguised intent. A subtle sound isn't going to be loud, yes, but "quieter" would be a better word. There's nothing about a less audible burping meat saw that's "(especially of a change or distinction) so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyse or describe" or "delicately complex and understated" or "arranged in an ingenious and elaborate way or "making use of clever and indirect methods to achieve something."

[Connell]

I really enjoyed playing New 'N' Tasty, but honestly, even if the little things being discussed are just little things, I think in the future I will definitely return to the original for play throughs. Not to discredit the work of JAW, but it's just so close to my heart. And dat atmosphere.

[HOMINIX]

I really enjoyed playing New 'N' Tasty, but honestly, even if the little things being discussed are just little things, I think in the future I will definitely return to the original for play throughs. Not to discredit the work of JAW, but it's just so close to my heart. And dat atmosphere.

Absolutely. They're two different games, and I don't plan on abandoning AO in favor of a tasty upgrade. The original is timeless. I'll still get enjoyment out of that game 17 years from now.

[Holy Sock]

I only really return to Exoddus so I may have a similar opinion with Twice the Flavour.

[kjjcarpenter]

That said, there's a reason OWF is in the credits, and for the most part it's at the very least an interesting experience reading some of the posts here.

The term "interesting experience" is thrown around a lot these days. Haha. It was a very nice touch to include us, nonetheless.

I just feel for creators as, being one myself, I know how deeply undue criticism can cut into the flesh. Stephen Spielberg says that he might read 20 good reviews of his movies, and be over the moon, then one person mentions a tiny gaff, or seemingly insignificant flaw, and he'll be miserable for weeks. It's really depressing.

I wouldn't want you guys at JAW, Lorne or any of the developers to fall into a state of melancholy because of some overly harsh criticism, which is why I mentioned steering clear of this forum. It's definitely not my solemn wish, but if Oddworld was my child, I know I wouldn't be here.

[Connell]

The term "interesting experience" is thrown around a lot these days. Haha. It was a very nice touch to include us, nonetheless.

I just feel for creators as, being one myself, I know how deeply undue criticism can cut into the flesh. Stephen Spielberg says that he might read 20 good reviews of his movies, and be over the moon, then one person mentions a tiny gaff, or seemingly insignificant flaw, and he'll be miserable for weeks. It's really depressing.

I wouldn't want you guys at JAW, Lorne or any of the developers to fall into a state of melancholy because of some overly harsh criticism, which is why I mentioned steering clear of this forum. It's definitely not my solemn wish, but if Oddworld was my child, I know I wouldn't be here.

You're a strange character, my friend.

[kjjcarpenter]

You're a strange character, my friend.

I prefer unique.

[MeechMunchie]

That uniqueness is strange. And that strangeness is uncommon.