Let's Talk About Abe's Exoddus

[Connell]

What he said, but: chill, yo.

Apologies for all the swearz. Long day.

My point is: why aren't you talking about New 'n' Tasty (instead of AO)?

We were comparing Oddysee to Exoddus. New 'N' Tasty might be the new canon, but it doesn't mean the originals cease to exist as games in their own right.

[Varrok]

New N Tasty is like the first installment in the new Star Wars Trilogy, while AO, AE, MO represent the old trilogy

[Moot]

My point is: why aren't you talking about New 'n' Tasty (instead of AO)?

AO and AE are more comparable, imo. Maybe we could compare NnT and Soulstorm, once we have played Soulstorm that is (or even know what kind of game it is lol).

[Vlam]

Okay. Again, I blame the interviewers who never asked this question...

[Connell]

Okay. Again, I blame the interviewers who never asked this question...

Have you considered a career in journalism, Vlam?

[Manco]

the problem of “does Abe canonically know how to chant and save the Mudokons in Zulag 1?” still applies whether we’re discussing AO or NnT, so it’s irrelevant anyway.

[Vlam]

Have you considered a career in journalism, Vlam?

Seriously, I believe we could learn a lot more from Lanning (if you ask him the right questions). Don't you agree?

[Varrok]

I've always thought of it as an afterthought, especially looking at the previous variants of the first "Return to RF" game screens.

Also, seriously, who didn't figure out chanting and possessing in the first 5 minutes of the game? I did, and I was 5 y.o. who couldn't speak English.

[Moot]

Seriously, I believe we could learn a lot more from Lanning (if you ask him the right questions). Don't you agree?

No doubt. But a lot of the time, interviewers can't ask hard-hitting questions because it'll either ruin the flow of the interview, or dissuade the interviewee from taking interviews from said interviewer again.. wow that's a tongue-twister.

That's why interviewers tend to ask very tame, and lame questions. I think.. at least.

[Varrok]

TIL "interviewee" is a real word

[Connell]

Seriously, I believe we could learn a lot more from Lanning (if you ask him the right questions). Don't you agree?

I do agree. But these sorts of interviews don't really tend to go in depth unfortunately, as it's more about making the public aware this thing is happening. Lorne probably doesn't want to give too much away at the moment either to build up hype.

Lorne Lanning AMA anyone?

[Moot]

TIL "interviewee" is a real word

(;;;

I do agree. But these sorts of interviews don't really tend to go in depth unfortunately, as it's more about making the public aware this thing is happening. Lorne probably doesn't want to give too much away at the moment either to build up hype.

Lorne Lanning AMA anyone?

Also, I doubt there is a whole lot to talk about. During the Kindafunny twitch, he literally said a modeller was still working on the Abe render whilst they were trying to reach their Twitter goals. I have a feeling that Soulstorm is still being largely conceptualized.

[Vlam]

I do agree. But these sorts of interviews don't really tend to go in depth unfortunately, as it's more about making the public aware this thing is happening. Lorne probably doesn't want to give too much away at the moment either to build up hype.

Lorne Lanning AMA anyone?

Check out Lanning's interviews by Nate. Which means in-depth interviews are possible. Real Oddworld fans are rare. Public and critics don't really care about Oddworld (so everyone, except the fans, are pleased by the interviews).

[Connell]

Check out Lanning's interviews by Nate. Which means in-depth interviews are possible. Real Oddworld fans are rare. Public and critics don't really care about Oddworld (so everyone, except the fans, are pleased by the interviews).

I'm not saying in-depth interviews aren't possible. I'm saying right now that isn't the purpose of these interviews. The purpose is publicity. I think we're arguing the same point here, Vlam. Good interviews can be done, but these interviews are based around promoting the game, not finding out what intricate details of the story have changed.

[Vlam]

I'm not saying in-depth interviews aren't possible. I'm saying right now that isn't the purpose of these interviews. The purpose is publicity. I think we're arguing the same point here, Vlam. Good interviews can be done, but these interviews are based around promoting the game, not finding out what intricate details of the story have changed.

Yes. But I think you're being way too nice with the interviewers. The fact I may be the only one who complain about it indicates that fans of Oddworld are very rare around the world.

[Manco]

But that’s always going to be the case with interviews for any type of media. Interviews are published for different audiences, and for most games journalists they’re writing for people who just want a brief summary of whatever’s going on in gaming. They’re going to be reading about a bunch of different gaming news, not just for one series.

Nate’s interviews with Lanning have a different audience in mind: they’re for dedicated fans of the series, who have an established interest in reading in-depth information about Oddworld. If you put that in front of an audience of a larger gaming news website you’d get very few people wanting to read it all, because that audience doesn’t have the same interest in the series as a dedicated fan site would.

[Vlam]

I agree with you, Manco. My point is: fans (and not likers) are really rare (sadly).

[Manco]

Yes, but what does that have to do with the topic? We were talking about Abe’s powers in Exoddus and how they relate to his powers in Oddysee.

[kjjcarpenter]

That's such a stupid way of looking at it. If the gameplay isn't canonical, then what the fuck is? I don't even really understand your point. Are you saying the game isn't canonical to itself? Besides, we're specifically analysing the integrity of the narrative and you're like "hurr durr or you could stop and realise it's just a game". These games strive to have a cohesive and engaging storyline.

The FMVs are canonical. That's it.

I'm not being "hurr durr". You don't need to be a dick, it's merely my interpretation. The gameplay, and what happens during the gameplay, is auxiliary to the actual story.

Some things within the gameplay are more canon than other things, but I don't consider Abe's chanting abilities before the Monsaic Lines as canon to the story. Similarly, I don't imagine he rescued any Mudokons before returning to RuptureFarms.

The gameplay is a representation of the story, not what actually happened. The only events that actually happened are the FMVs, unless otherwise stated. It's a video game, ergo, it's a different storytelling medium, and different rules apply.

Once again, my interpretation. You may believe whatever you want as well.

EDIT: I apologise if came across as rude before, I just don't believe everything within the game should be taken at face-value. It's a game, and there's going to be gameplay elements that don't make sense in a fully-functioning world, like the LED screens that offer Abe advice, or the bird portals conveniently floating around RuptureFarms during Abe's initial escape.

Also, seriously, who didn't figure out chanting and possessing in the first 5 minutes of the game? I did, and I was 5 y.o. who couldn't speak English.

I've mentioned this in a thread before, my uncle played through the game until Scrabania Nests without realising he could possess sligs; he thought that was just a neat way of making them explode.

[Connell]

The FMVs are canonical. That's it.

That is fair enough. I'd argue a 100% perfect runthrough of the game is the canon of the story, considering all 99 Mudokons (or now 300) are present in the final FMV of the game (never confirmed, but heavily implied). But as you say, we can each have our own interpretation of the canon. Apologies if I was rude earlier too, I came across waaaay more harsh than I meant to. Wonders of the web, eh.

[Moot]

I enjoy games best when their storytelling is within the game play, and the two aren't separate. Environmental and contextual storytelling included.

If there's a dissonance with storytelling and game play, it brings me out of the story the game is trying to involve me in. It takes me out briefly. And as before mentioned, video games is its own interactive medium, it doesn't benefit from the same strategies that films do.

Look at Undertale, look at Dark Souls. They're both examples of alternate forms of storytelling, which aren't possible via films. The concept of "game play and cut-scenes are seperate" rubs me the wrong way, a game (specifically story-focused games..) needs to be mechanically competent whilst telling an interesting story. If they can combine the two effectively to match one another, they have accomplished at making a good video game.

Edit: I'm fine with your opinion of "Abe knowing how to chant isn't a big deal", everyone's entitled to their opinion. But this debate is regarding the double standard of Abe being able to posses Scrabs and Para's in AE, but not AO.

[JayDee]

I've always considered Abe's possession abilities to be a combination of skill and his own spirituality. So here's my somewhat indepth reasoning behind it.

From the get go he is essentially blind to his race's culture but as Abe's Oddysee progresses he learns more and more of the Mudokon's past. I remember reading in an article Lorne explained something along the lines of Mudokons believed in a form of Shamanism (Obvious I know since they have Shamans) and that the non-sentient animals to be the most truly spiritual and connected to nature: Mudokons because of their sentience Mudokons would never be as truly in touch with nature as creatures such as Scrabs and Paramites were, but still strived to be.
Perhaps this is where the power of possession came from? In order to reach the minds of creatures who are more attuned to nature. This would also explain why initially Abe can only control sentient industrial creatures like Sligs, rather than the more "spiritual" animals such as Scrabs and Paramites, and why gaining his hand scars could potentially grant him the power to do so.

In terms of skill - with the exception of native species - Abe isn't able to "succesfully" leave a host until three games down the line where his possession ability has advanced to the roaming spooce orb we see in Munch's Oddysee. In both Abe's Oddysee and Exoddus, Abe essentially self destructs Sligs and Glukkons in order to get his own mind out. Though he does this in Munch's Oddysee with Sligs he doesn't seem to do it with Glukkons like Lulu so there's definitely a conscious choice with how he uses it.

But that's just a theory... An ABE Theory. Thanks for reading!
i hate myself

[kjjcarpenter]

That is fair enough. I'd argue a 100% perfect runthrough of the game is the canon of the story, considering all 99 Mudokons (or now 300) are present in the final FMV of the game (never confirmed, but heavily implied). But as you say, we can each have our own interpretation of the canon. Apologies if I was rude earlier too, I came across waaaay more harsh than I meant to. Wonders of the web, eh.

That's all good, brother. And I do appreciate the differing interpretations; it's always interesting to see how someone else interprets something that—in my mind—is set in stone.

[Bixer]

I'm with Nepsotic on this one, for sure.

Exoddus is to Oddysee what Reloaded/Revolutions was to the original Matrix. Bigger doesn't necessarily equal better.

EDIT: Around 31:30 in that video is exactly why I disliked Exoddus towards the end and could never be bothered to fully finish it. Until that point I'd been enjoying it somewhat, but that hub within a hub within a hub system towards the end completely ruined the whole experience.

He also has a very good video on gags in the Oddworld series and how they're perhaps becoming a bit too prominent a feature

[Nepsotic]

I was actually planning on making another thread about this video but I guess I don't have to now. That's a great video which illustrates exactly what went wrong with Oddworld and why it hasn't been the same since Oddysee.

[Bixer]

Feel free to make it! It's definitely another topic worth discussing separately, I won't begrudge you for making it because I 'mentioned it first', promise.

[Connell]

I'm confused. Is the wrong video embedded there?

[Nepsotic]

No?

[Connell]

Whoops. Thought the "31.30" comment was referring to the video he had embedded there, and it only goes to 29 minutes. Ignore me.

[Holy Sock]

I agree with the guy that Exoddus definitely has the best blend of humour and serious themes. I didn't have a problem with those 4th wall breaking moments like him, though.

The thing about Oddysee is that it's a parable. It injects some slapstick humour to keep things light without really hurting it's themes or atmosphere like Munch ended up doing.

However, Oddysee is still a basic fairytale parable with thinly drawn characters. I mean Molluck basically isn't a character. He's the grumbly, evil businessman. But it works since Oddysee is a parable told through narration. It's a basic story that adds context to the gameplay.

But if you want to dive deeper into Oddworld and craft an actual story with dialogue and arcs etc you need more. But, honestly, do you want Oddworld to be this very serious and dark story? I really do think Oddworld needs humour to stop it from becoming a badly written, preachy, melodramatic snore-fest. I think you need humour and levity to inject some heart into the world.

Unless you keep the parable format for the rest of the series you need more from your characters. As the guy said humour is a good way to inject some personality into these caricatures - but as long as it remains grounded.

So in Exoddus you can have humourous interplay between Mudokons and your low ranking antagonists and still keep things pretty dark. It's a blend and the two aren't mutually exclusive. The grubs in Stranger were definitely irritating but it's a black mark on an otherwise tonally consistent and enjoyable game.

Although what's wrong with the Brewmaster, man? That guy was nifty.