The Paranormal, 'Odd Happenings' & Religion Thread -

MA · #61 01-20-2010, 04:45 AM

an old relative of mine used to work as a Home Help, visiting the elderly in their homes so they wouldn't have to move to an old peoples home. she visited one bloke, who was verging on the edge of senility, and he decided to try and give her something he 'wanted to get rid of'. she didn't even look at what it was and declined anyway, as she had to visit another house.

set her motorbike up, grabbed her back bag and got onto the road. came up to traffic lights, which were green, and sped across, almost getting hit my a lorry that decided to run a red light across the road. she braked and slid, and was helped by motorists.

only having a few scratches and with the lorry speeding off anyway, she continued to the next job, shaken up. got there, opened her bag and there was a fucking Ouija board in there. the old man that had slipped it into her bag died the next day.

that's what i was told. make of it what you will. i just think its an interesting story.

Wings of Fire · #62 01-20-2010, 05:15 AM

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All this is basically what we've been saying. What I was trying to say is that being a part of something, if the metaphysical is indeed a part of the universe, doesn't suggest that this metaphysical actually holds the universe together, as you put it. Being a part of something is, I think, quite different from having power or even any sort of influence over it.

Oh, so you're not an Idealist. My bad, I assumed etc etc. But my point was that at the moment the universe is held together by matter, not any stuff and if there does exist other stuff then matter (apparently) can't act on it whilst the other stuff can act on matter. Like The Force in Star Wars I suppose,

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As for the first question, I see no problem with Cartesian Dualism except:
1. It separates awareness/consciousness from the physical self (if my understanding is incorrect, I apologise).
2. How can awareness exist without thought or sensation? If you are self-aware, so to speak, that is supposing that you are capable of thought and sensation.
3. Thought is generated by the brain and sensation by the physical self.
4. Both the brain and the physical self are material things.

As for the second question, I really have no idea. :P

I am very dissatisfied with psychology's answer to explain away Dualism, it doesn't make the arguments for Dualism any better but it just feels like something is missing.

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Who says the things we attribute to be spirits, angels and demons didn't evolve on some other plane with the natural flow of the universe?

Always a possibility, but...

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I don't like the idea of throwing god into the gaps to explain them, Splat. It doesn't sit well with me.

A wizard/dragon/Big Bang/Mephistopheles/GN Particles did it.

I've just read my last post and I apologize, I was very tired and my argument meandered without really going anywhere.

ALSO on the original topic:

slig# 5719 · #63 01-20-2010, 05:24 AM

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Psychology is a science.

Thats true, I completly forgot about psychology (some how).

What I meant was that Religion has a conscious being controlling the universe while science believes the universe is run by automatic processes and coincidence (or something like that). Shove those aside and you have similar things; they're just using their own way to explain the universe.

I hope that came out right.

MA's story was interesting, that lorry driver seems completly immature. Ouija boards seem to be quite interesting objects.

abe619 · #64 01-20-2010, 05:34 AM

what i know , is that , a human is made of 3 parts , the soul which keeps that body alive (and no it can't be turned into a ghost) , A self which is contains emotions we feel and also contains our conciousness (i know i misspelled) , and finally the physical body.
from an islamic point of view , when anything dies it's soul goes to god and waits until judgment day to be judged on (how time feels depends on karma and final destiny also depends on karma) , so basically , when someone has enough bad karma , devils can then hardly appear to them in the forms of ppl who are dead , so that they may hate god or disbelief in him even more.
oh come on , look around , can coincidence create such a beautiful universe with such detail? also , unlike most ppl think , religion (or at least my religion) encourages science and learning even if it means instead of worshipping , someone at the time of the prophet Mohamed , called Omar Ibn Al-Khatabb , saw a man sitting in a mosque everyday , he always finds him there , he then talked to him , saying that god loves the worker and the learner who worship more than just a worshiper.
knowledge is only bad for religion when in certain fields , like the weapons of mass destruction , instead normal weapons used by normal soldiers in good deeds is good for religion , as long as it's not used on innocent ppl.

Wings of Fire · #65 01-20-2010, 05:36 AM

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Thats true, I completly forgot about psychology (some how).

I don't have much faith in Psychology to solve the more abstract problems about the universe, only to deal with 'good enough' statements for interpersonal situations and how our mind works in relation to them. Of course I'd love to be proved wrong. I do want to be a psychologist after all.

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What I meant was that Religion has a conscious being controlling the universe while science believes the universe is run by automatic processes and coincidence (or something like that). Shove those aside and you have similar things; they're just using their own way to explain the universe.

It's a fair bit more complex than that, especially with these 'coincidences'. If there is an infinite number of universes then the vast vast majority of them cannot support any kind of life, so it's not by coincidence that we're here, it's by necessity. Because we simply couldn't be anywhere else.

EDIT: Not all religions believe in a conscious being controlling the universe, some believe in avatars of nature, nature itself or the whole universe as God.

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MA's story was interesting, that lorry driver seems completly immature. Ouija boards seem to be quite interesting objects.

My opinion of Ouija boards is the same as my opinion about tarot cards, that is, that you see only what you want to see.

EDIT 2:

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I see the idea of a link between omnipotence and impotence (if you can do anything, what is there to do? The ultimate bored child phenomena) but don't think it applies to the God I believe in. God is inspired to act through love. Sometimes that means doing nothing and sometimes that means doing anything.

That's not exactly what I mean, what I mean is closer to how the character of Dr. Manhattan is realized in Watchmen, that is that he is rendered absolutely inert and powerless by his own power. The power to change anything and the knowledge that goes with it means that you cannot in fact change anything. God cannot act because he already has, he is not a free will, he cannot make choices, he is, in fact, a force of nature.

Havoc · #66 01-20-2010, 05:50 AM

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There is so much that we don't know, and so much we completely fail to understand, and I wonder if in 50, 100, 200 years we'll still be looking for answers. Which makes me think that some things simply can't be explained without a faith in the supernatural.

You can't explain something by believing in something. By doing that you just come up with your own little story for it, not an actual feasible explanation.

Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean we should try to make something up to cover the gap. We don't understand how the universe works. Sure we've identified a lot of things, theorized about the stuff we found but we have no clue how it all goes together.

Coming along and saying: "You don't understand that, so it must be god." is what they did 2000 years ago when the bible was first written. There was a sky, a sun, a moon, light, darkness, good and evil and people had no idea where all those things came from, how they worked or how they could be manipulated.

Today we know that the sky is not the limit and that there is a whole universe behind that sky. We know the sun isn't a magical source of light, it's a very bright star/planet just like our own. Darkness is the absence of light and good and evil are simply a person's nature, possibly in someone's genes.

I don't understand why you would want to patch up a gap in our knowledge with god. Is it not much better to say; "we do not understand this but we are going to find out."? At least that way we keep discovering new things. Placing god in every gap we don't understand will keep us stationary and dumb, because we assume we already have an explanation for everything. It's not the way to go.

The video actually makes some very good points in my opinion.

abe619 · #67 01-20-2010, 05:52 AM

no , god is one and can infact do any and everything , he isn't limited by anything including physics which he created and the knowledge which he gave us and our bodies , our minds , all of those he created for us and he loves us, we aren't he is slaves , we worship him willingly , and the proof is that if we were really slaves , do u think that he would have gave us emotions or will or even senses?

Wings of Fire · #68 01-20-2010, 05:56 AM

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no , god is one and can infact do any and everything , he isn't limited by anything including physics which he created and the knowledge which he gave us and our bodies , our minds , all of those he created for us and he loves us, we aren't he is slaves , we worship him willingly , and the proof is that if we were really slaves , do u think that he would have gave us emotions or will or even senses?

I don't think this is the thread for that sort of statement, and I really don't want to get into an argument about that.

Havoc · #69 01-20-2010, 06:01 AM

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and the proof is that if we were really slaves , do u think that he would have gave us emotions or will or even senses?

Who said anything about slaves in this topic? But if you insist.

You say you're not slaves? Well define a slave. A slave is someone who is forced into a particular activity in fear of what will happen to them if they don't follow the rules or do their job correctly.

Here's what the bible says in a nutshell: You will love god and follow his rules. If you turn your back on god, worship another god and/or break the rules set out by your god, that's your own choice (free will) but non the less you will burn and be tortured in hell for ever and ever, until the end of time.

If that's not slavery, I don't know what is.

EDIT: And I agree with WoF. This thread is not meant for another religious discussion so I'll just leave it at this.

Splat · #70 01-20-2010, 06:05 AM

Um, so what you're saying is God can't make choices because he already made choices?

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so does that mean u believe in god splat? (i do BTW since ye all know i am a muslim)

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what i know , is that , a human is made of 3 parts , the soul which keeps that body alive (and no it can't be turned into a ghost) , A self which is contains emotions we feel and also contains our conciousness (i know i misspelled) , and finally the physical body.
from an islamic point of view , when anything dies it's soul goes to god and waits until judgment day to be judged on (how time feels depends on karma and final destiny also depends on karma) , so basically , when someone has enough bad karma , devils can then hardly appear to them in the forms of ppl who are dead , so that they may hate god or disbelief in him even more.
oh come on , look around , can coincidence create such a beautiful universe with such detail? also , unlike most ppl think , religion (or at least my religion) encourages science and learning even if it means instead of worshipping , someone at the time of the prophet Mohamed , called Omar Ibn Al-Khatabb , saw a man sitting in a mosque everyday , he always finds him there , he then talked to him , saying that god loves the worker and the learner who worship more than just a worshiper.
knowledge is only bad for religion when in certain fields , like the weapons of mass destruction , instead normal weapons used by normal soldiers in good deeds is good for religion , as long as it's not used on innocent ppl.

I'm a Christian

The Christian perspective is that we each have two parts, the body and the soul. The body is a part of the world; the soul is immortal and distinct from the world.
Christian view of the afterlife is that we are all inherently 'unclean'; from conception we're cut off from God, because of what mankind as a whole has done against him, and what we will do against him as soon as we're old enough to make our own decisions.
We can never make ourselves good enough for God. We can do good things, but we'll always mess up and we can never be good enough to win our way back to God.
Because we're rubbish, we'll have to face punishment, which will be total separation from God, cut off from him and from every good experience he gives (which is every good experience). We've got to be punished for what we've done; if someone robbed your house, you would want the thief to be punished.
God is our judge because it's his standards we have to live to. But he doesn't want to punish us because he loves us, so he sent Jesus and punished him instead. Jesus and God are the same being in a complicated way, so he effectively punished himself for what we do wrong. So if a person accepts that God is God, even though he's still going to do the things we're not supposed to do because we can't help it, he will take away our punishment and let us be with him forever (which is what Heaven basically is; being with God).

EDIT:
Havoc, I'm not saying that we shouldn't look for answers. I'm saying maybe God really is the answer to some of the questions.

So what the Bible says in a nutshell is:

You have messed up following God's rules and so deserve punishment.
God loves you so he doesn't want that, even though it's fair.
God let himself be punished instead of you.
If you accept that God is God, he will free you from the punishment you deserve.

Anyway, you're right. This isn't a topic of religion and those never end well here, so...

abe619 · #71 01-20-2010, 06:10 AM

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Who said anything about slaves in this topic? But if you insist.

You say you're not slaves? Well define a slave. A slave is someone who is forced into a particular activity in fear of what will happen to them if they don't follow the rules or do their job correctly.

Here's what the bible says in a nutshell: You will love god and follow his rules. If you turn your back on god, worship another god and/or break the rules set out by your god, that's your own choice (free will) but non the less you will burn and be tortured in hell for ever and ever, until the end of time.

If that's not slavery, I don't know what is.

EDIT: And I agree with WoF. This thread is not meant for another religious discussion so I'll just leave it at this.

samething in qura'an except , there is no end of time and what u said , that is choice not slavery.

as a muslim , i don't believe in the original sin , cause it's not fair and it's not ideal , each of us get punished or reward depending on ourselves , EX:- if someone was a very good person and suddenly he got mental illness and became insane and he began killing ppl , he will be judged on due to the last time he was totally aware of what he was doing.

Splat · #72 01-20-2010, 06:13 AM

I am a slave to God, but not through fear. Because I'd rather be a slave in a palace than king of a wasteland. It's my choice, not one I was manipulated into. I know some Christians will try and use fear to manipulate people to convert but this couldn't be further from what God wants.

Wings of Fire · #73 01-20-2010, 06:17 AM

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Um, so what you're saying is God can't make choices because he already made choices?

Kind of. If he can't make choices he has no choices to make.

All he can do is well... be. I've heard contemporary scientists (Richard Dawkins is a huge offender) refer to nature the same way that theologians and religious figures refer to God. I think that if God does exist these two things are one and the same and with our limited knowledge about the part of the universe not controlled by what we can see and percieve as matter I think it's more than sufficient to use the word 'God' as a catch-all term for all of it, until we can differentiate between what everything is.

That's not to say we can ascribe any attibutes at all to this, just that it exists and it's the 'God' in everything.

THIS IS OF COURSE ONLY APPLICABLE IF THE METAPHYSICAL EXISTS WHICH I CANNOT SAY WITH ANY CERTAINTY AT ALL IF IT DOES OR NOT SO I WILL REMAIN SKEPTICAL OF IT.

Splat · #74 01-20-2010, 06:22 AM

The difference between God and a force of nature is that nature would be impersonal. God actually cares to people. He loves us, wants to be with us. And he is active in the universe. The Bible constantly shows him as active before Jesus came, and Jesus coming itself as an act of God.
The point I'm trying to make is God doesn't just observe, but he gets involved. He does talk to people, and listens.

Wings of Fire · #75 01-20-2010, 06:37 AM

Again, an argument I don't want to get into. You keep your belief in your heart and I'll ruthlessly challenge mine in mine. The end result in our conduct to others and the world is largely the same regardless.

slig# 5719 · #76 01-20-2010, 06:47 AM

The main problem I have with life theories is infinity.
Infinity has the annoying habit of destroying itself for example: "Can god create a stone he cannot lift?" if the answer is yes he doesn't have infinite power, if the answer is no he doesn't have infinite power.

But a lot of man made concepts are exactly the same.
I think religion itself is a man made concept born from curiosity and so will stay with us until that curiosity is filled which given the thousands of years it's taken us to get this far I won't hold my breath.

I myself do not believe in God or anything else of that kind, I believe in finding things out for myself and when I die i'll see if there's a God or not. I much prefer to find out for myself then go by what someone else tells me (that includes science, not just religion). This view is within reason of course, i'm not going to run into a giant rotating saw to see if it kills me.

My personal Philosophy is:
"if I spend my life wondering about death, i'll spend my death wondering about life"

OANST · #77 01-20-2010, 07:01 AM

You fuckers have the conversations that I may actually be interested when I'm away. Stupid fuckers, all of you.

Anyway, when I was a child I used to see a man walk in my bedroom door, stand in the corner, and stare at me. Sometimes there would be more than one, and some of them would do more than just stand there. There was one in particular who would all of a sudden start walking towards my bed. If I shut my eyes, and then opened them again it would be back where it started, but it would always start walking towards me again. I saw these things every night. Every single fucking night for years. If I went into my parents bedroom they would follow me in there. I did not sleep much as a child.

Of course, it's all bullshit. It was the product of the over-active imagination of a very lonely and terrified little boy. This is the gift that the church gave to me. In the process of stealing my childhood by convincing my mother that I should be shut away from the world to keep me from it's evils and temptations, it also convinced my young mind that supernatural forces wanted to destroy me. I will never forgive these people for their irresponsible behavior, and I intend to dance on their fucking graves some day.

Edit: It's nice that some of you are able to have faith. I get that it makes life easier to believe that there is a loving god waiting for you after death. But none of you live in the world that you believe in, not even you Splat. You like the stories, and you like the benefits, but you have never had to live the super-fundamentalist lifestyle, and I'm going to say something that most you will no doubt disagree with: If you aren't a fundamentalist, you aren't a Christian. You don't get to temper ancient texts with modern wisdom. IF MODERN WISDOM CHANGES YOUR FAITH THEN YOUR FAITH WAS INHERENTLY WRONG TO BEGIN WITH. Also, it isn't fair. It isn't fair that I had to live through what I did, and you don't. I know that's a stupid and shit argument, but I don't care. It isn't fucking fair.

You all look at Westboro Baptist Church and have a good laugh. But I lived that shit. It isn't funny to me. There is very little difference between the church that I spent every day of my childhood in and those people. I can be quite callous, but my heart fucking breaks for those children.

abe619 · #78 01-20-2010, 11:31 AM

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In the process of stealing my childhood by convincing my mother that I should be shut away from the world to keep me from it's evils and temptations, it also convinced my young mind that supernatural forces wanted to destroy me. I will never forgive these people for their irresponsible behavior, and I intend to dance on their fucking graves some day.

dancing isn't enough , urinate on their graves and put dildos all over them!!!

OANST · #79 01-20-2010, 11:33 AM

Good thinking.

shaman · #80 01-20-2010, 11:37 AM

I saw a "Shadow figure" Outside my window before. My Dad was with me and he could see it too. At first we decided it was some joker in the front garden, but upon searching we found nothing; the road was empty, no people, no cars (This was very late at night mind you) and nobody was in the garden. I went back in, and the figure was still there.

Consider this thread re - railed.

OANST · #81 01-20-2010, 11:40 AM

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I saw a "Shadow figure" Outside my window before. My Dad was with me and he could see it too. At first we decided it was some joker in the front garden, but upon searching we found nothing; the road was empty, no people, no cars (This was very late at night mind you) and nobody was in the garden. I went back in, and the figure was still there.

Maybe it was Pan. He was preparing a great orgy for you as a "Welcome to the Faith" present, but you ruined the surprise so he just said "fuck it", and left.

shaman · #82 01-20-2010, 11:44 AM

No, no, no. I didn't see any horns, plus if it was a "Welcome to the faith" Present it was totally belated. I was the Wiccan Wonder of the West long before this.

OANST · #83 01-20-2010, 11:57 AM

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No, no, no. I didn't see any horns, plus if it was a "Welcome to the faith" Present it was totally belated. I was the Wiccan Wonder of the West long before this.

Do you think that your gods have nothing better to do than throw you parties? It just took them that long to get around to it.

shaman · #84 01-20-2010, 11:58 AM

Point taken...

MeechMunchie · #85 01-20-2010, 12:24 PM

DISCLAIMER: I THINK GHOSTS ARE BULLSHIT AND CAN BE EXPLAINED WITH SCIENTIFIC THEORIES AND A LITTLE COMMON SENSE

I've seen creepy stuff myself on occasion. Usually I dismiss it, but I always make a mental note of what happened and where, so I can keep a look out if anything screwy starts going on.

Most of it's in childhood, as with most people, since imagination is less suppressed back then. But I've seen a translucent horseman pace around my garden, spectral faces in curtains, and when I was really tiny, the headlights on my toy bus kept flashing on and off, and I could see tiny pupils in the centre. The problem was that the headlights had never had light bulbs in them, or mirrors. They were just matte plastic. I tapped it the following morning and nothing happened, but I never played with it again.

I also have a tendency to find symbols or messages in natural formations. Even today I saw a weeping pace in the snow, next to a pair of overlapping leaves resembling a broken heart.

Oh, and once I was sitting on the crapper, doing my buisness, and my entire perception of reality flickered. It was like when a cinema changes rolls of film, I saw a flicker of black, then a flicker of white. For a few seconds I couldn't remember where I was, who I was, or what was going on. It was a bit like The Matrix but with no green numbers. A few seconds later, normal service is resumed, and I go back to my shit in peace.

If ghosts did exist, I suspect they'd just be people. Nothing to be scared of, they're probably just trying to finish something they died halfway through. That gives the happy idea that you could have a friendly chat with your dead relatives.

I also suffer from horrendous deja vu, lucid dreams (Unparachuted basejumping. Wheee!) and that thing where you feel like you're falling.

Oddey · #86 01-20-2010, 12:24 PM

I had a friend who seemed a pretty strong believer in modern occult. Claimed that he had used a Wigi board that had actually worked. I never really found that believable.

But he did say that he had woken up to the sound of typing, and realized that the computer was typing on it's own. Then, as if it wasn't creepy enough, he said that there were footsteps coming from the stairs.

I've never had any real expiriences with this who supernatural thing. Lots of Dejá Vu though. Almost once a month, I look at something at a certain angle and know I've seen this exact image somewhere else. I love remembering the feeling the next day, just not the feeling itself, because I can never remember where I've gotten it from. This does tend to needle at me for a few minutes, and can be become very irritating, until I decide to dismiss it as just me being paranoid.

EDIT: I just remembered a single incident that scared me to death. I used to sit outside with my family and look up at the stars in the evening. I would get bored very quickly, and once I went inside, I'd usually end going back outside, for the company. One time I chanced upon looking into the bathroom. Behind the curtains, was a humanlike shape, and moving. I freaked out and ran back outside and decided it was probrably better to wait out there than with whatever that was. To this day, I have no clue what it was, and I've long since moved out of that house. I still think that has to be one of the most creepy expiriences in my life.

OANST · #87 01-20-2010, 12:37 PM

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But he did say that he had woken up to the sound of typing, and realized that the computer was typing on it's own. Then, as if it wasn't creepy enough, he said that there were footsteps coming from the stairs.

PROTIP: He's full of shit.

Mac Sirloin · #88 01-20-2010, 01:13 PM

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You fuckers have the conversations that I may actually be interested when I'm away. Stupid fuckers, all of you.

Anyway, when I was a child I used to see a man walk in my bedroom door, stand in the corner, and stare at me. Sometimes there would be more than one, and some of them would do more than just stand there. There was one in particular who would all of a sudden start walking towards my bed. If I shut my eyes, and then opened them again it would be back where it started, but it would always start walking towards me again. I saw these things every night. Every single fucking night for years. If I went into my parents bedroom they would follow me in there. I did not sleep much as a child.

Of course, it's all bullshit. It was the product of the over-active imagination of a very lonely and terrified little boy. This is the gift that the church gave to me. In the process of stealing my childhood by convincing my mother that I should be shut away from the world to keep me from it's evils and temptations, it also convinced my young mind that supernatural forces wanted to destroy me. I will never forgive these people for their irresponsible behavior, and I intend to dance on their fucking graves some day.

Edit: It's nice that some of you are able to have faith. I get that it makes life easier to believe that there is a loving god waiting for you after death. But none of you live in the world that you believe in, not even you Splat. You like the stories, and you like the benefits, but you have never had to live the super-fundamentalist lifestyle, and I'm going to say something that most you will no doubt disagree with: If you aren't a fundamentalist, you aren't a Christian. You don't get to temper ancient texts with modern wisdom. IF MODERN WISDOM CHANGES YOUR FAITH THEN YOUR FAITH WAS INHERENTLY WRONG TO BEGIN WITH. Also, it isn't fair. It isn't fair that I had to live through what I did, and you don't. I know that's a stupid and shit argument, but I don't care. It isn't fucking fair.

You all look at Westboro Baptist Church and have a good laugh. But I lived that shit. It isn't funny to me. There is very little difference between the church that I spent every day of my childhood in and those people. I can be quite callous, but my heart fucking breaks for those children.

Who laughs at Westboro Baptist Church? Honest question. From my experience most people find them horrible bastards.

OANST · #89 01-20-2010, 01:20 PM

Well, yeah. They are horrible bastards, and I certainly didn't mean to make it sound like anyone is making light of a serious situation (especially as this is my specialty). My point was only that you can look at them in a removed sort of way. I actually know what it's like to live with that dogma.

Pilot · #90 01-20-2010, 01:20 PM

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A year ago my brother got married and so I met a bunch of his spiritualist friends. He was quite horrified to be told that, in several of their opinions, I was far more psychic than even him. Sadly, this seems to be localised specifically to episodes of The Simpsons....

We had an MSN discussion about this and I was impressed because the same thing happens to me. An episode would pop into my head, and usually within 48 hours it would come on. We also discussed the synchronicity of you happening to mention that to me.