BREXIT

[Varrok]

What?

Your vote in EU matters less. While EU is responsible for the significant part of your country's laws, you can only vote for a small, insignificant portion of EU parliment, while the rest of the people are voted by people from countries with different interests, often clashing with interests of your country. While in EU, EU takes voting power away from you and your country.

[Connell]

I can't speak for everyone personally, or anyone on here at all, but no one I know really had an opinion about being in the EU this time last year, or even a few months ago. But now a lot of people seem to have formed this really strong opinion we should leave, when they didn't care before.

I didn't have a problem being in the EU before, and I feel it's a bit strange to begin caring and having this strong opinion we should leave like you've been crushed your entire life, when no one had a problem a year ago.

Again I must reiterate that is merely a personal observation I have made, and it 100% does not apply to everyone, nor anyone on here. People probably did have opinions about it beforehand, but just the majority of people I have spoken to seem to have had conjured this strong anti-EU stance in the last few months almost because they've been told to care.

[STM]

It's worth reiterating that a lot British people have this bizarre sense of cultural and political supremacy, based chiefly on an empire built upon slave trade, subjugation of foreign nations and military conquest.

We are, in 2016, a middling power with aspirations way above our capability. We can't even scale our economy to utilise the immigration into the country properly. The UK is the self indignant, moody cunt of Europe and it wouldn't surprise me if we sacrificed all the good of the EU to sate our ultra nationalist fears of sharing political power and staunching the flow of working immigrants.

[Vlam]

It's worth reiterating that a lot British people have this bizarre sense of cultural and political supremacy, based chiefly on an empire built upon slave trade, subjugation of foreign nations and military conquest.

But if that's who they are, then why do you want to change them? Furthermore, didn't you know that the UK has always been called the "reluctant European"?

[Connell]

But if that's who they are, then why do you want to change them?

I'd assume their change would be desired because it's quite an unhealthy mentality in a sense, and it doesn't really reflect the country that we live in today. It's sort a hangover from when we were a more powerful nation.

[Holy Sock]

I'll be damned if I have to have a passport handy every time I go down South.

Remain!!

[Nate]

Your vote in EU matters less. While EU is responsible for the significant part of your country's laws, you can only vote for a small, insignificant portion of EU parliment, while the rest of the people are voted by people from countries with different interests, often clashing with interests of your country. While in EU, EU takes voting power away from you and your country.

So why do you bother voting in your country's federal elections, when you can only vote for a small, insignificant portion of the Polish parliament? Perhaps your province should secede so that it can focus on local interests? Or, fuck that, let's go down to the level of medieval city-states!

[moxco]

So why do you bother voting in your country's federal elections, when you can only vote for a small, insignificant portion of the Polish parliament? Perhaps your province should secede so that it can focus on local interests? Or, fuck that, let's go down to the level of medieval city-states!

Because after a lot of bloody history Europeans realised that the nation-state was a good level of government. There's a reason the Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, and Yugoslavia no longer exist.

[Holy Sock]

Connel's got a point. I can't pretend to care or get indignant about EU control over some particular legislation. I can't pretend to get riled up about the flow of immigration when it's never worried me on a personal level previously.

I think a lot of people in the UK are the same. It's why we keep hearing about this large, relatively neutral base of voters that are a bit frustrated by the rhetoric on either side. They just want to be able to weigh the facts of one decision against the other. Unfortunately, the impression I get is that these facts are difficult to provide and the outcome of Brexit is difficult to predict. So we get a fair amount of sensationalism. I mean Cameron insinuating that war could come of Brexit or Boris Johnson comparing the grasp of the EU over Europe to Hitler's plans for the continent don't do either side any real favours.

Then these large financial organisations come out and say Brexit would be a very bad economic decision yet Brexit highlight where these institutions have been wrong in the past (as with Britain joining the Euro) and start throwing out their own statistics. You'd like to just go along with the IMF but maybe the Brexit side has a bit of a point? It's difficult to maneuver. And the closer you dig the more susceptible you become to parroting either sides' arguments.

At the moment I'll probably vote Remain because I've yet to hear a series of Brexit arguments that truly compel me the change the status quo - which might have some negative effects living in Northern Ireland and with the industry I'm trying to work in.

[Varrok]

So why do you bother voting in your country's federal elections, when you can only vote for a small, insignificant portion of the Polish parliament? Perhaps your province should secede so that it can focus on local interests? Or, fuck that, let's go down to the level of medieval city-states!

[STM]

Because after a lot of bloody history Europeans realised that the nation-state was a good level of government. There's a reason the Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, and Yugoslavia no longer exist.

The examples you give aren't related to what the modern EU is, though. The Ottoman Empire was, a super-state run by a minority ethnic elite that imposed harsh anti-reformist law upon its many sub-peoples. The OE existed at a time where ethnic lines ran far more deeply than today, and where primary cultures and accepted cultures fundamentally positioned one within society. A Hedjazi fisherman had little reason to pledge his allegiance to a Turkish Sultan who was, might I add, unelected.

Austria-Hungary was again, a nation that imposed very strict repressive policies based upon one's ethnic group. An Austro-Hungarian elite (one might actually say a South German elite, excluding Hungarians in all but name), presided over an empire constituting Serbs, Bosniaks, Turks, Albanians and Croatians to name a few.

Yugoslavia (a successor state of Austria-Hungary of course); another nation comprising other cultures that got on together very well under the fairly beneficent dictatorship of Tito. All fell apart when he died and far right minority fascists underwent a maniacal genocide.

There's a common trend here, and it's not "BIG GUV FALES".

Subjugation, inequality and repression are the evils.

[Nate]

There's a reason the Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, and Yugoslavia no longer exist.

A lack of democracy helped there.

(straw man)

I think perhaps you need to research what a straw man argument actually is. I didn't actually claim you were suggesting anything of the sort. I was just taking your argument to its logical conclusions. If you want to respond in a mature manner, you must either explain how I misunderstood your argument, or why it doesn't lead to the conclusion that I suggested.

[Varrok]

Most people voting for the local elections in UK have their own interests in mind. The elections have a huge influence on the UK.

Most people voting for the EU elections *don't* have the interests of British people in mind. The EU elections have a huge influence on the UK.

I pointed that out before so that my previous post in no way leads to the conclusion you gave me.

[Manco]

Most people voting for the local elections in UK have their own interests in mind. The elections have a huge influence on the UK.

Most people voting for the EU elections *don't* have the interests of British people in mind. The EU elections have a huge influence on the UK.

I pointed that out before so that my previous post in no way leads to the conclusion you gave me.

Most people voting for the local elections in London have their own interests in mind. The elections have a huge influence on London.

Most people voting for the UK elections *don't* have the interests of London people in mind. The UK elections have a huge influence on London.

[Varrok]

London is not a different country. It's an essential part of Britain.

[Manco]

London votes for representatives to the UK parliament, just as the UK votes for representatives to the EU parliament.

[Varrok]

Does London conspire against UK? Does it want to harm UK in an economical or other way?

Also,

Most people voting for the UK elections *don't* have the interests of London people in mind. The UK elections have a huge influence on London.

Most people voting for the UK elections *do* have the interest of London people in mind. They don't fucking want to destabilize their own capital city.

[Dixanadu]

I'll be damned if I have to have a passport handy every time I go down South.

You're not serious, are you? I live right on the border so it's bad enough that my phone erratically switches provider from O2-UK to O2-IRL whenever it wants.

I can't live down the idea of having to present my passport every time I want to go to a friend's. Bullshite, I say.

[Manco]

Does London conspire against UK? Does it want to harm UK in an economical or other way?

Also,


Most people voting for the UK elections *do* have the interest of London people in mind. They don't fucking want to destabilize their own capital city.

See, now you’re getting off-topic. I was trying to help you understand Nate’s point but you’re changing the goalposts to win the argument.

Also for your point to work, you first need to prove the EU is conspiring against the UK or vice-versa. Otherwise you’re just making up a scare-story to suit your argument.

[Varrok]

EU as a whole is not conspiring against UK.

But not all countries ever love UK and wish the best for UK.

[Nate]

Does London conspire against UK? Does it want to harm UK in an economical or other way?

Also,


Most people voting for the UK elections *do* have the interest of London people in mind. They don't fucking want to destabilize their own capital city.

The UK's a bad example because it's geographically small and quite interdependent. I'm from Australia, and you'd better be damned sure that people from Western Australia conspire against Victoria and vice versa.

[Manco]

Even so, you can bet that there are areas of the UK that don't especially like London either. And more broadly there will be parts of the UK that dislike other parts - it's a union of countries after all.

[STM]

Everyone fucking hates London, it may as well be a separate country in and of itself. Even I hate it and I work there.

[Holy Sock]

You're not serious, are you? I live right on the border so it's bad enough that my phone erratically switches provider from O2-UK to O2-IRL whenever it wants.

I can't live down the idea of having to present my passport every time I want to go to a friend's. Bullshite, I say.

I haven't looked into it too deeply but the Secretary of State Theresa Villiers says the border will be unaffected by Brexit but other politicians are saying this is ridiculous. How much of this is hysteria versus downplaying the issue is unclear. It would certainly be bad for the island if this was to occur.

[MalumInSe]

Here in Canada (I am British) the majority of refuges coming in are generally sponsored by government officials or people with wealth.
It doesn't make sense to me, how are they refuges?

I vote leave, we can follow examples of other countries that are doing fine without the EU.
However, and just my personal opinion, we will remain in the EU.

[Varrok]

The border control in EU is pretty weak, they let in people with no identification and the system is severly abused by african people from countries that aren't even at war, trying to disguise themselves as Syrian refugees. They just want freebie houses and privileges and hardly give a damn about even learning the language of the country they mass-invade. And they get what they want.

[Manco]

I haven't looked into it too deeply but the Secretary of State Theresa Villiers says the border will be unaffected by Brexit but other politicians are saying this is ridiculous. How much of this is hysteria versus downplaying the issue is unclear. It would certainly be bad for the island if this was to occur.

The UK is not a part of the Schengen Area, which is the thing that lets EU citizens travel freely without passports etc. So the UK still maintains its own border control, meaning exiting the EU would not affect immigration all that much.

Here in Canada (I am British) the majority of refuges coming in are generally sponsored by government officials or people with wealth.
It doesn't make sense to me, how are they refuges?

Because refugees are not necessarily poor people? They’re fleeing from war, that doesn’t mean they’re destitute.

[MalumInSe]

Whole situation is odd.

[Holy Sock]

The UK is not a part of the Schengen Area, which is the thing that lets EU citizens travel freely without passports etc. So the UK still maintains its own border control, meaning exiting the EU would not affect immigration all that much.

Well, no, the argument is that the UK cannot control its EU migrants due to EU regulations. It's not to do with free movement without a passport. We cannot, for example, adopt a point based system to deal with EU immigration like we can with non-EU migrants due to particular regulations. The thinking is that the UK would be able to make the decisions necessary to deal with the issue of immigration which they cannot currently. I mean there's going to be several arguments on either side debating this point. On the radio earlier someone was arguing that despite our apparent control over non-EU migrants the figures are slightly higher than EU migrants.

Also you don't need a passport to travel from Northern Ireland to the Republic because there literally is no physical border. There are no stops or checkpoints. You can simply drive South until you start seeing road signs in Gaeilge. The concern would be that Brexit would possibly lead to an actual physical border of sorts or disrupt the free movement between both countries.

[moxco]

Also you don't need a passport to travel from Northern Ireland to the Republic because there literally is no physical border. There are no stops or checkpoints. You can simply drive South until you start seeing road signs in Gaeilge. The concern would be that Brexit would possibly lead to an actual physical border of sorts or disrupt the free movement between both countries.

My understanding was that neither the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland are signatories of the Schengen Agreement and that the Common Travel Area (which was in force long before Schengen) would continue.