Intelligent Oddworld Conversation

[Volsung]

I believe I did get a little too long-winded there death, Sorry. The point about Hypocrisy I originally was making was that humans have a history of treating other humans as either intelligent beasts or soulless human constructs, making it ethically acceptable for them to take advantage of primitive cultures. Happened with the american indians and tribal peoples all over the world, including today. "Human life is precious, unless it doesn't have the same world-view we do. Then it isn't human." That's what I meant. I think this is a point oddworld makes quite nicely.

And I'll shorten the posts.

[Codek]

Well it's been a part of human history hasn't it? De-humanising people so that they feel better about killing them. It happens in cars, it happens in the military, and it happens in the media.

These days it is less acceptable to be so intolerant of others. Which is why Bush is getting such a bad run. And it's also why the majority of his supporters are sub-smart.

But some very good points there Volsung! I can't fault you on any of them.

[Esus]

PA, I'm sorry but I think you're wrong. I know technically mudokons and glukkons are different species, but I feel that see each other more as a different culture to a different species, much like westerners do to tribal africans. The reason is because that is what the two species represent. They are representing different human groups. The fact that they are genetically different species is quite irrelevant.

[Majic]

I'd only be reitterating if I also discouraged whatever PAs thoughts were about species difference and such.

But I have to agree with Death and disagree with the few others who've said humans aren't the most intelligent on earth. We're relatively new creatures in the scheme of things, being around for a far less period of time than others. Long ago, we were somewhat suited the harsh, uncivilized enviroment of the earth generations ago. Now, through the path of natural selection, we've lost many of our old characteristics that allowed survival in those harsh times.

What leaves us as the dominant race is intellectual capacity and ABILITY to carry out ideas. By being able to actually do create what we think allows advancement upon that, and thus the cycle repeats. In the past few centuries, our technological capabilities show an incredible exponential growth. Other species haven't done that, and certainly don't have previously recorded knowledge to ultimately build on.

Primitive traits and actions ma be able to justify calling us a species of lesser intelligence, but in reality those may as well be byproducts. Because of the culture and lifestyle differences explained so well by Volsung (who I now believe kicks total ass), you're going to have disagreements and such. But if you can't see, popular opinion is slowly turning more to that of prevention and improvement as a whole. In modern times, if someone tries to terrorize or rule with an iron fist, something is done about it. The realization about the world around us is growing; give it more time, and it'll develope into what current idealists pray for.

[Wil]

I love you Volsung.

About Glukkons and Mudokons being a different species, I only agree if we're not talking in metaphors. These creatures wouldn't be alien to each other, as they've actually evolved and developed alongside one another over millennia, and probably wouldn't be consumed by culture shock if they entered each others' settlements. Shocked and disturbed, likely, but not totally alienated. In that sense, I agree that species on Oddworld do indeed represent different sides of humans: broadly speaking, the natives and the industrials. Of course, there are subsets within them - the industrial world seems to be divided into families that dominate different factors of society (science, manufacturing, economics etc), which are a reflection of their development and individuality as species. However, Oddworld is a large place, as PA said, and species from opposite sides of the planet will indeed be alien to one another.

About intelligence, I haven't got anything remarkably deep to mention, but I reckon humans are the most intelligent species ont he planet, but only in terms of knowledge. When it comes down to knowing the planet, knowing nature, and knowing who we really are, we're more than likely in the lower echelons of intelligence. We grow so dependent on technology, but when civilisation is removed, we do actually forget about it. When the Romans had to abandon their empire to protect Rome, within 300 years the natives had resorted to tribal conflict, unindistrialised and totally uncivilized. Even in the ruins of Rome, farmers kept watch over the flocks with only the most obscure of myths to keep the memory of Rome alive. When money was reintroduced to Europe from the Arabic countries in the Tenth Century, it was considered a form of magic. Even today we haven't yet reached a single currency or language. This just goes to show how superfluous society really is.

I won't go into how I believe this may very likely happen again very soon. And when I say again, I'm not referring to Rome, I'm referring to whatever advanced pre-human culture constructed Nan Madol, Yonaguni, the Baalbek Trilithion and the Spynx.

EDIT: I'm going to split the thread and send the latest topic budding to Off-Topic.

[paramiteabe]

Mainly to put this into simplier terms is that earth possess many cultures as you all stated within one form of intelligent life and that is us Human beings.

The definition of Intelligent life is any lifeform having the capacity for thought and reason especially to a high degree; Mainly any life that is like us is defined as intelligent life. So in other words we havent found anything beyond our world that is like us if we do we will label them intelligent wether they are primative or not.

A type of life that is able to build technology, great cities, creating a society. A type of life that has written and recorded its history is labeled as intelligent life.

Wild life is not intelligent because they don't possess our ability to record language or the ability to build great industrial societies, and native societies and technology and so forth and so on.

Wildlife does communicate but more on a survival and instinct type of scale and level but they are not as defined above intelligent like us.

Oddworld mirrors the cultures that all man kind possess through the many different intelligent life forms from native to Industrial and perhaps eventually a new type possably a common type like what a Khanzumer might be.

And also they live all on the same world which makes Oddworld a multi intelligent life world. Our world is a single intelligent life world. Thats the difference.

Paramiteabe...

[Wil]

As I said in my last post, perfectly intelligent creatures don't necessarily have to be able to write and record their history. After the collapse of the Roman empire, Europe fell back into a state of utter political chaos - no money, no transport, no science, no class divisions, only the most basic of buildings. It almost completely forgot the Romans existed, and certainly did not keep a record of history. Yet they were clearly what you have otherwise described as an intelligent species.

And about animals only communicating on an instinctive and survival level, I'd have to disagree there. Most animals' linguistic capabilities are limited only by the physical structure of their vocal regions. Cats simply do not have the muscles to alter the cavities of their mouth, nose and oesophagus necesarry for producing the wide variety of sounds necessary to build up a sophisticated language. But, on the other hand, cats actually have the most complex and advanced language of any species besides humans. Who's to say what they could achieve if they could only evolve the right body (I say that suspecting you don't believe in evolution PA, but correct me if I'm wrong).

Actually, there was the case of the parrot that could immitate human speech to the degree that it could construct its own unique sentences and string words together to try and refer to objects it did not know the name of. This is the same kind of behaviour children go through when learning to speak and understand others, so it's quite clear that in terms of mental language, humans are not necessarily the pinnacle of the animal kingdom.

[paramiteabe]

Yeah so you think the parrot actually understood what it was saying?

[Volsung]

PA certainly has a point about being the only intelligent species we know of, but allow me to post a few bulletins.

1. Humans are physically some of the weakest animals there are, incapable of surviving without tools or weapons in the wild. What then is our defense mechanism? No matter how you say it, the bottom line is that we are able to reason abstractly. We can put meaning into meaningless things, creating weapons, homes etc. Our defense strategy is culture. We are the only species to have that.

2. Unfortunately the ability for language is hindered without the ability for abstract thought. I don't know about the Cat example above, but many apes have predetermined soundsets for communication. This means that the same species ape in africa and europe could warn each other about a snake, but neither could make a sound to represent a plane. Humans again are the only animals known to have linguistic variety.

3.There's no way of knowing for sure what the parrot could understand. If it could speak knowledgeably in a human tongue there's no telling whether it's learned a format to speak in or whether it's truly gone a step higher on the evolutionary ladder. (By higher I simply mean more complicated or sophisticated) No matter which is the truth, it still implies that it is the physical limitations of the vocal chords that hinders human to animal communication.

4. No matter that all the above put humans at the top of an evolutionary list, it seems asinine to believe that other creatures can't reach the same pinnacle. Many animals have some of the characteristics (Raccoons-opposable thumbs; Bears can walk erect; parrots and ravens have similair vocal abilities) yet none have the ability to reason abstractly. Still, Time and evolution march on. It is inevitable that another species will emerge as a recognizable intelligent life form.

5. A final note: it's probable that animals can reason abstractly to a certain degree. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's evidence of such. (Would the sign-language gorilla indicate this? I'm not sure.) Anyway, No animal has all these characteristics combined. When I see a squirrel in a loincloth, I will know the evolution has come.

Or should this have been in off-topic?

Edit: Note that I said pinnacle in No. 4. This is wrong. There's no reason to believe humans are at the top of the evolutionary ladder. In fact, seeing a top to evolution seems counter-productive. That was pure egocentrism in regards to humans. Sorry.

[Wil]

Considering it was providing unprovoked descriptions of objects it hadn't seen before, yes I do, and so do most of the people and scientists who have met it. I'm sure a saved a link to the article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3430481.stm

[Volsung]

That's really impressive. Are there indications that other parrots are near this one's capacity? One can only wonder what the grandchildren would be like.

[Codek]

I think what PA is saying, is that our different cultures on earth, are represented on oddworld as being different species.

[Wil]

I thought that's what you were trying to say... Meaning we all seem to be arguing the same arguement.

[Volsung]

America doesn't take Iraqi people and force them to slave away in our factories, and kill them if they ask questions or don't do their job. But the Glukkons do that to Muds, and that's why Abe does what he does. It's about fighting slavery.

Very true. But American companies DO take away the livelihoods of self-sufficient peoples by buying land (with sources of wealth these people couldn't possibly have had access to) and then offering them 5 cents an hour working on land they once owned. Even if they aren't beaten or killed, they are forced to conform to a system which allows them only bottom-feeding rights, where they once were masters of their own fate. Surely this is considered taking away freedom?

And consider what happens if they don't do their job and are fired? Driven out of the only place they've known, and into the cities to find lower-paying jobs in even worse conditions. It's true that Oddworld emphasizes wrongs being done in the world beyond the true act. But these events are so under-estimated and trivialized that you rarely consider the actual harm being done. Even less does one consider (As a U.S. citizen) that it is american companies that do it.

Still, this is the way of capitalism. Especially capitalism post-globalisation.

Sorry if it's a little late to respond to this, but I kind of got caught up, as max says "arguing the same point."

[Codek]

Very true. But American companies DO take away the livelihoods of self-sufficient peoples by buying land (with sources of wealth these people couldn't possibly have had access to) and then offering them 5 cents an hour working on land they once owned. Even if they aren't beaten or killed, they are forced to conform to a system which allows them only bottom-feeding rights, where they once were masters of their own fate. Surely this is considered taking away freedom?

Sorry Volsung but that doesn't make any sense. Companies don't just "aquire" land then "force" the original owners to work on it. If anything, the original owners would be so wealthy from having sold their land, that they wouldn't have to work on it any more.

[Jacob]

Apparently, according to some of my resources, the war on Iraq was legal, because Saddam had breached some resolutions set by the UN...

And whilst we mingle on prairie land, i think animals rock...

[Wil]

Legal, maybe, but its conforming to the defining factors of being a just war are incredibly dubious, from many reasons. Firstly, the UN did not consent to the occupation, and the war was most definitely not a last resort. Considering no trace of WMDs have ever been found, it's conceivable the US Government, at some point in its hierarchy, falsified facts and just plain lied. Innocent civilians were indeed killed, by the hundreds, if not thousands. There are the typical Internet rumours of exotic alien weaponry being tested, buses condensing to the siz of a small car, with human bodies burning and shriveling to nothing, but that's an even less likely source of truth than Bush. There are huge question marks over the intent of the war and the reason behind it, too. The WMDs, as I said, were not found, and there's plenty to suggest America wanted access to Iraq's oil reserves, though I haven't heard anything about this in ages. Peace was defnitely not resumed after the conflict, either. Whoops, there goes every single definition of a just war. Gulf War II isn't even a sixth justified.

[Codek]

This is getting offtopic now guys.

[Nate]

1. Humans are physically some of the weakest animals there are, incapable of surviving without tools or weapons in the wild.

That's because instead of evolving muscles for strength we evolved brains to be able to use complex tools. You don't need to be able to rip apart wooly mammoths with your bare hands if you've invented the knife.

But getting back on topic to the whole terrorism debate:

I've always believed that "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" were flip sides of the same coin. It just depends on your perspective.

Try and find any freedom fighter in the whole of human history. It could be the Zapadistas (or whatever they're called), Judah Maccabee, Sheik Yassin, or even Jesus if you want. By the very fact that they are Freedom Fighters it means that they are fighting against someone. Now to that perspective they are terrorists.

YOU can say that Bin Laden is so bad that he can't be compared to anyone else but I'm sure that the Mexican government would have no problem saying that the Zapa's are worse than he is simply because they target them and Bin Laden has'nt given Mexico any trouble at all. And similarly Australia hates Jemaa Islamia, England hates the IRA and Spain hates ETA. But then to the Indonesian Mulsims, the nationalist Irish and ETA's supporters they are all freedom fighters and martyrs.

[Codek]

I must say Nate, some very good points there.

[Volsung]

Companies don't just "aquire" land then "force" the original owners to work on it. If anything, the original owners would be so wealthy from having sold their land, that they wouldn't have to work on it any more.

And in those situations I'm sure the original owners work out fine. The situations I'm talking about though are the ones in which a government de facto owns private land. This is generally the case in third world countries (and the U.S. too, when push comes to shove) and the companies buy land from the government, not the people we might say own it. If compensation comes, the more the better, but laws protecting human rights from the government aren't always in existence or even enforced. This is to say that the people are generally sent off with minimal compensation.

Another troubling instance is somewhere in India I believe, where Coca-cola for some reason owns all the wells. There's nothing particularly wrong with owning public wells, as long as they remain public, but its difficult to see how foreign powers controlling the water in any given area could be beneficial. Still, they might have those people's best interests at heart.

Sorry to run that argument ragged death, but if you'd like to discuss it further, I think it might better be suited in off-topic.

Good points on Freedom-fighting vs. Terrorism, Nate. Reminds me of trying to understand Pro-Life Abortion-clinic bombers.

[paramiteabe]

I think what PA is saying, is that our different cultures on earth, are represented on oddworld as being different species.

That is exactly what I am saying Death you got it right on the dot. Yay here some brew for you

Anyway the different cultures of the Human race represented in the many races of Oddworld is the very thing that makes Oddworld odd and disturbing.

Its as if its normal for the inhabitants to live like that and if something happened that would change that norm it could mean Oddworld would be doomed.

We are always hearing the term "for all the inhabitants live on Oddworld together and as the quintology unfolds characters that were over looked may proove to be real important in the big picture. For Oddworld is big that we have only begun to explore the true depths of the odd."

Now here is something that would make this very disturbing and very strange and very Oddworldish. What if all the things we are seeing is actually going to turn out to be a real bad thing for Oddworld? Like the heros of the quintology do all their saveing and stuff but in the end and in the big picture they would be the direct cause of this doomed world of dybolical danger's true demise.

For instance when we first saw Oddworld it was a pretty horrifying place. What if that was normal for Oddworld and everything was the way it was suppose to be? The enslavement of the Mudokons, the near extinction of the Gabbits. The torture and the horrific reality of Oddworld all together was not suppose to be changed for the good of Oddworld? And now that seems to be changeing for every game we see. What if that change is actually a bad thing to throw the inhabitants to its demise. Because they are so used to liveing in such conditions that all of a sudden these individuals change that way of life which can cause a sort of extinction throughout all races when actually keeping everything the way it was before wouldn't cause any harm even though it looked to be pretty nasty in the beginning?

That is desturbing. If you don't understand what I am saying, I am simply saying that what if everything we are seeing in the games that are good are actually bad for all of Oddworld? And everything we thought was bad is actually causeing no harm to life on Oddworld but more or less regulateing life on Oddworld?

That is very disturbing if you think about it because it would mean that the way of life on Oddworld in all species is actually a normal thing for them and when all of sudden that is changed it could mean disaster. The sick twisted way of life of industrials is actually normal? Won't that be a surprise!

[Esus]

Well, there was a time before the sick industries, remember? In Oddworld, creatures progress through evolution, and at one time they were not the same as they were today. Who's to say which point in time is the norm for Oddworld?
I find it very unlikely that the revolution will cause the destruction of Oddworld. perhaps it will cause the destruction of the Industrialists economy and life-style, but if cause the decadence of everything, then what would be the point the point that Lorne is trying to get across in his stories? Revolt against slavery and veryone will die? I don't think so...

[Scrubs]

Maybe we should have a monthly thread on a certain issue that Oddworld has in its games?

Hey Volsung nice to see another 19 year old on the forums, you raised some good points. You said that the difference between Abe and Osama is that Bin Laden set himself up to bomb while with Abe it was just dumb luck. Even so Abe still went ahead and killed! If you find a gun that does not mean that you have to use it!

I watched a show about a water company, buying up all the wells in mexico initially claiming it would help the local people.The compnay then charged prices that local poeple can't afford and they are dying from drinking dirty infected water, and we call ourselves a intelligent and civilised species . Big multinational companies(generally) don't give a damn.

But then maybe it is all down to us the consumers!! If we didn't buy these products then the companies wouldn't make profits. So maybe each one of us is responsible.

Ps the biggest threat to world peace is currently in the White House

[Jacob]

'and we call ourselves a intelligent'

Colour me wrong, but i'm sure buying up all the water in the area and then selling it to the locals is intelligent.

[Codek]

Each oddworld species seems straightforwardly hellbent on whatever it does. They are undiverse within themselves. And that's what makes the game so strong. Each species is so obviously interested in only one thing.

Glukkons want industry, Mudokons want peace, Gabbits want uh... more young, and Vykkers want science... and such.

So umm yea. I kinda don't know what my point is.

[Volsung]

You said that the difference between Abe and Osama is that Bin Laden set himself up to bomb while with Abe it was just dumb luck. Even so Abe still went ahead and killed! If you find a gun that does not mean that you have to use it!

You're absolutely right. Personally, I think any killing done should be completely personally, one on one. Although I also think that no one should feel they have the right to go through with it, so that's sort of a catch-22. But if you recall, OI was originally going to have a mode in MO where you got a special something if you went through the entire game and didn't kill ANYTHING. The killing in AO and AE they probably would like to be able to avoid, but didn't figure out a way in time, especially since they didn't manage to implement it in MO.

So yes killing is wrong, but I think that OI knows this and would like to offer alternatives. The problem we might have with Abe in his two games is essentially a question of gameplay.

Colour me wrong, but i'm sure buying up all the water in the area and then selling it to the locals is intelligent.

Economically intelligent but morally reprehensible.

Ps the biggest threat to world peace is currently in the White House

Amen. Unfortunately the two party system doesn't leave nearly enough room for alternative candidates.

And on a final note, much as I love the idea of consumer politics, there's only so much one can do to avoid giving money to these conglomerates. For instance: I hate Microsoft and Sony, but in order to play the games I liked (namely Oddworld) I had to sell out and buy an xbox. And beyond that, even if one can manage to avoid buying stuff from blatently evil companies, there's always the good company that's owned by another evil one. Case in point: Converse. Who owns them now? Nike or Reebok. I forget which.

[Codek]

Hmm, may I remind everyone that this is an oddworld discussion. As good as your points are, they should be made in another thread.

[Volsung]

Good Call, Death. Sorry.

PA's point about upsetting the natural balance, then. Wow. I'd never even once hoped to concieve such a completely twisted, excellent thought. How COULD the industrial side of Oddworld be considered in harmony with the life on oddworld? I imagine, Since they tend to destroy all the resources in any given area, that to make it work there would have to be an enormous fallow period, during which the industrials would have to move elsewhere. This is, I suppose, possible, Since Oddworlds so huge, but then the problem becomes population control.

On the other hand, that might not be too big a deal with species dependent upon their queens for reproduction. Wow. It's kind of difficult to think about the scale their operations would have to be on. There would almost have to be a lateral swath of industry down the planet which moved slowly around it. That way there might be a long enough period for resources to reform and animals to repopulate. But I guess that's supposing that the glukkons don't truly eradicate the species before they leave. Hmm.

Good Question PA. That would be a pretty intense twist, and as Death pointed out earlier, what with the species being so single-minded, there would have to be a huge sense of community. A community in which the mudokons forgot their place as slave labor.

On a similair point, would Mudokons have been bred to be dumber? They only do menial tasks, and they're right on the verge of becoming meat, anyway. Cows have gotten dumber, it just seems possible. Even likely.

[Codek]

Thing is Volsung, the way Glukkons operate their businesses, is to spread factories EVERYWHERE. They don't farm animals, they just rope them in. So the idea of Glukkons actually allowing the animals to repopulate is far fetched.

Oddworld is so huge that it doesn't suffer from the affects of pollution, and won't do until Glukkons start logging the countless thousands of hectares of rainforest on oddworld. So any pollution you get from oddworld is found only within the vicinity of factories.

Now, shutting down a factory to move operations to places with more resources would mean putting out the boilers, and once you do that you can't relight them, it just becomes uneconomical. So to move operations elsewhere, would require for the boilers to be kept fired - this would continue to pollute the area, thus killing off all harvestable wildlife.

To tackle this problem, Glukkons harvest everything in sight as quickly as possible. Oddworldians seem to loose interest in novelty meat products quite quickly anyway, so having a species become extinct and having to move on to another species in the end just keeps the customers happy. The customers get to see a change of scene in what they eat.