puppets or CGI?

[paramiteabe]

I hate to tell you SS but CGI was never around during the time when Alains was filmed. James Cameron shot the film useing Miniatures, puppets, and special effects with smoke and mirrors and lighting. Every shot you see with the queen is a giant puppet much like what Jabba the Hutt was in "Return of the Jedi."

Eather that or there was a small modol of the queen they filmed in a miniature and they just use some cool hand tricks. But there was no CGI at all. If you seen CGI effects in Aleins it means you saw a special edition where nowadays they go back into the original film and twek it up with some CGI. But everything you see with the Alien curling his lip is all puppet work. You don't have believe me but thats what it is.

Alien 3 was the first to introduce a minor CGI effect and I am saying very minor CGI. Aliens was filmed during the 80's where CGI was never herd of at the time. And then Alien 3 was filmed in 1990 where CGI was starting to make its appearence for the first time in film. It wasn't much but it helped.

[Fez]

that is another reason why Aliens rules.

[Statikk HDM]

I like my film FX like I like my coffee: Mixed. Both of them have pros and cons but adding both is a very good touch. I thought Alien:Ressurrection(sp.) made the right call when it used aliens and puppets. And CGI quality is pretty good at times, look at the matrix movies. Once again, a good example of a movie using CGI and puppets/props to achieve the maximum effect.

[Codek]

I like movies that use CGI where it would look best, and puppets/props where it would look best.

As some of you may well be aware, I make model starships as props for clients in the movie and tv industry. I've been pondering over the uses of these models recently, and I've been wondering whether they are as popular for actual use in the filming as they were 5 years ago. Most of my clients seem to be more interested in the models to act as guides for the 3D modellers.

I beleive this is the case, because while 3D modellers might be quite talented when it comes to making things look real, often they are not very creative, and their works lack the "spark" that's needed to get original looks.

For instance, the movie Starship Troopers, made a great job of the model starships it used. Every single ship in that movie was a model. But when it came to those bug things, they used CGI, and made a good job of it too. Just another example of how the mixture of the two can do very well for itself.

The same goes for Oddworld. Most of their characters started out life as sculptures and drawings. The talented drawers and modellers made the characters, and then the 3D modellers translated that work into the computer world.

[paramiteabe]

Thats how it all of works out. Watching TV and watching movies is like looking at art that can move. But the basis of film and television is art. It all starts out in its raw form in art. You will never see a movie or a TV show without story boards and Illustraitions. Like 3D modeling in which you mention Death the guide for the director from the Illustraitors is mainly the Story board. Those story boards evolve into moveing scenes called anamatics and then turned into the scene which the animators do. Thats the basis of a film turning still artwork and makeing that art come alive and move.

That 3D modeling and minatures add to the effect of the realisem. They also act as guides to show things how they would move and look 3 demensionally.

Because a story board doesnt tell much. In a typical art studio you may have a thousand story boards all posted up on sheets of foam core that depict the scenes in the most quick and simpleist form which is a gesture or line drawing. The director would go through and select the shot he likes and sometimes the artist sits there and is shocked because your trying to think ok he wants that shot but theres hundreds of thousands of characters in that shot. You have to think how you are going to transition that story board into a completed Illustration to hand over to the modelers. And the modelers have to interpret the Illustrations from artists so they can make 3D models from and minatures and then hand that over to the animators to make that come alive. Its a very demanding type of job being artists and modelers and animators. You are constantly in the hot seat and on demand in short amount of times. Not only you have to have talent but you need to have a lot of craft
and you need to your talent as fast as possible and still withhold your great talent. It can at times be tedious and intimidateing. All areas are important and the area that I want to do which is the Illustraitor is the first step in makeing a movie.

[Codek]

Just a few pics of my work area, some ships that are still half built, and my work materials/tools.



This picture shows the half built Cargo Ship project. Next to it is a Gunboat for a race I designed myself. Next to that is a battleship miniature (fully painted). To the right of that is a very small winged frigate. And to the extreme right is a fully painted cruiser miniature.



An above view, showing from left to right: Unfinished Cargo Ship, Gunboat, painted Battleship miniature, Frigate, painted Cruiser.



To the left in white (still unpainted) is the newest project. The center ship is the gunboat again. And on the right is the Battleship miniature again.



My work materials, consisting of polystyrene card (hard plastic) of various thickness and texture. (What all my ships start off as) This is then cut to the required shapes and glued to the model using liquid polystyrene cement.

[Codek]

Just going to bump this topic back up to the top to save it from dying.

*bump*

[paramiteabe]

Out of cerosity Death do you do your model work based off of your own Illustrations? You should see my work studio. Like a typical artist we are messy hehe But that is part of the job.

I have Air Brush equipment mounted next to my drawing tabel with the air brush ready to go just simply plug the compressor in. There is pieces of Illustraition board that are cut at different sizes laid out on the table. Plus all my art supplies and bins and small drawers are sitting on my table aswell that I wish I had a shelf for. with paper towels and varnish sprays and paints. Plus a folding Essel and my portfolio. And of course my fine brushes. Now I need to invest into a Mac computer and a shelf so I could develop some digital art work aswell and to keep my supplies off my table. I consider myself a professional freelance artist.

Honestly I am looking forward to the next month because I will be getting a bigger space for my studio and my equipment. It will definatly be nice for me. The bigger the space the better for me. Ive also decided I am starting my own small freelance business.

Anyway enough bragging about my work area back to topic.

[oddguy]

You kids are lucky! My art supplies consist of colored pencils and oil paints. Ta-Da! Well, I have made some clay sculptures of my creatures though, but that's it.

-oddguy

[Codek]

Out of cerosity Death do you do your model work based off of your own Illustrations? You should see my work studio. Like a typical artist we are messy hehe But that is part of the job.

Untidy? Those pictures are of my desk when it is tidy! When it's untidy you can't see the desk. It gets completely coated in model parts from my bits-box.

I'd really like a proper workshop. A shelf full of model kits so I have lots of spare parts, a nice big, open desk area, a set of rulers and set squares, and a display case for all the finished models. Oh and lots of storage space for the paints, glues, varnish and so on.

And yes, those models are made from my own illustrations. The first stage starts off in the sketch pad, then it moves up to accurate freehand drawing where the dimensions are decided, then it goes onto graph paper, and from there I make scale drawings of each part. The parts are then cut off from the sheet of plastic, trimmed, sanded, filed, and then glued on the model. Once the model is completed, I start to think about what kind of finish I want to give it in terms of textured plastic, and from there it moves on to a plastic coating that covers up any blemishes on the plastic work. Then the model gets put in a vacuform moulding machine, where an exact replica is made. The replica gets tested with one or two different paint schemes until I am happy with the look, then the replica gets sold and shipped to the customer.

[lindsey]

Im going with CG much more realistic looking and theres no limits.

[Fez]

wow! death can do everything! next he'll be saying he can snowboard!

[oddguy]

Quiet you! Maybe he can snowboard. Ya never know.

-oddguy

[Codek]

Quiet you! Maybe he can snowboard. Ya never know.

-oddguy

Yeah I can actually. I got lessons back in 2002.

I don't own a snowboard yet but I plan on getting one. But ferill, what exactly are you trying to imply?

[Fez]

i dont know alot of people apart from me and you who can snowboard. thats all. I didnt mean any offence.

[Codek]

i dont know alot of people apart from me and you who can snowboard. thats all. I didnt mean any offence.

Oh, cool. Where do you board? IE where is your nearest drypiste?

[paramiteabe]

Untidy? Those pictures are of my desk when it is tidy! When it's untidy you can't see the desk. It gets completely coated in model parts from my bits-box.

I'd really like a proper workshop. A shelf full of model kits so I have lots of spare parts, a nice big, open desk area, a set of rulers and set squares, and a display case for all the finished models. Oh and lots of storage space for the paints, glues, varnish and so on.

And yes, those models are made from my own illustrations. The first stage starts off in the sketch pad, then it moves up to accurate freehand drawing where the dimensions are decided, then it goes onto graph paper, and from there I make scale drawings of each part. The parts are then cut off from the sheet of plastic, trimmed, sanded, filed, and then glued on the model. Once the model is completed, I start to think about what kind of finish I want to give it in terms of textured plastic, and from there it moves on to a plastic coating that covers up any blemishes on the plastic work. Then the model gets put in a vacuform moulding machine, where an exact replica is made. The replica gets tested with one or two different paint schemes until I am happy with the look, then the replica gets sold and shipped to the customer.

I ment untidy in the sense of haveing a lot of art stuff laid out and trying to find room to put this equipment. I have a similar problem I just need a shelf and I am set. Anyway thats cool that you snowboard. There are some cool slopes in my area probabaly nothing compared to where you are.

But they are decient. And Oddguy I wouldn't worry about haveing what you have because in time if you stick with what your doing you too will acumulate art stuff that will eventually grow into a mini studio.

When I started I dident even have an art table. I just had computer paper whatever I found and normal pencils. And then one year I got a drawing table the kind with the light and thats when I really got into it and now its become a mini studio. Trust me it will grow into a mini studio because thats what generally happens as you get more and more professional at what you do.

[Sekto Springs]

I hate to tell you SS but CGI was never around during the time when Alains was filmed. James Cameron shot the film useing Miniatures, puppets, and special effects with smoke and mirrors and lighting. Every shot you see with the queen is a giant puppet much like what Jabba the Hutt was in "Return of the Jedi.".

I know there was no CG then, I was merely using the queen as an example saying that the puppet (even an old one such as that) can outdo modern CG.

[Fez]

Oh, cool. Where do you board? IE where is your nearest drypiste?

their isnt any near me i used to snowboard when i was living in WA. Lots of snow and we went to the mountains alot.

[Codek]

their isnt any near me i used to snowboard when i was living in WA. Lots of snow and we went to the mountains alot.

Oh. Real snow is kinda different to dryslopes. Turning is a bit different, you gotta dig the front in as you push the back out. Weird.

Anywho, personally I think I like both CG as much as I like props. They are both as good as each other when done right.

[Sekto Springs]

Death, you have a nice collection of Citadel paints. Are you a Warhammer fanatic (I certainly am)?

[Codek]

Death, you have a nice collection of Citadel paints. Are you a Warhammer fanatic (I certainly am)?

I used to be. Those paints are leftovers. Still nice and fresh though, and their pretty darn good quality so I've kept hold of them.

I have a small imperial gaurd army, comprised of a basilisk, two leman russ tanks, a sentinel, and some stormtroopers. The models were painted to the greatest degree of accuracy possible, then left on a shelf. Since then the only warhammer model I've purchased has been the chaos defiler, which I bought shortly after its official release.

I find the actual game to be somewhat dull. Lacking in interest and depth. I do admire the modelling capabilities of one or two 'Eavy Metal team members, and stare in awe at Forge World, but it's not something I make a hobby out of.

[Fez]

i used to be, which reminds me. I might be selling all my Tau warhammer.

24 painted firewarriors
Aun'Shi unpainted
1 painted devilfish
1 unpainted hammerhead (with railgun)
3 painted pathfinders
3 unpainted pathfinders with rail rifles
8 painted gun drones
1 unpainted shield drone
3 unpainted Kroot hounds
1 unpainted pathfinder leader
2 painted XV8 crisis battlesuits (one with leader markings)
1 paint starter set. (9 paints, brush)
Fortress Grey paint
Shining Gold paint
1 custom made Tau "general"

the paintings kinda crappy, but you can always spreywhite them and start again.


thats over £80.00 worth of stuff there, but i wont be expecting to make nearly that much.

[Codek]

Well since we're moving on to this subject I might as well let you know about my stuff.

My warhammer 40k stuff IS up for sale if there is anyone who wants to buy it. The painting is top quality, and as such the models would look nice on a shelf. If anyone is interested, feel free to let me know.

The basilisk and sentinel are completely painted. One of the Leman Russ tanks is partially painted, the other one is damaged ( a heavy box fell on it, crushing off the custom details) but the hull is still in tact.

I also have a fully painted highly detailed legion of the damned commander, and a highly detailed spacemarine soldier holding a scanner (the scanner has lots of nice detail on it). I've also got a custom made psyker, wearing a hood and cape, moulded from green-stuff. He's fully painted and well detailed.

One more thing, I also have a Defiler, the whole thing is painted black, but has some silver detail and is fully assembled. This model is difficult to construct from the kit, so I'd advise you look at getting this one before you go out and buy it from the shops.

The basilisk may be a problem, as there are small details such as arials that could snap off in transit, so packing may get a little expensive. The same goes for the sentinel, which has a highly detailed base.

EDIT: ferill how much do you want for the hammerhead?

[Fez]

i'll need to find out how much my mate got it for, then i'll see where my limits are. How much are you willing to pay?

[Al the Vykker]

At first when I saw those little minatures you have there, it looked like the small fighter was a Sith Fighter from Knights of the Old Republic.

Anyways, I really like the look of those.

[Codek]

At first when I saw those little minatures you have there, it looked like the small fighter was a Sith Fighter from Knights of the Old Republic.

Anyways, I really like the look of those.

Thanks. Are you talking about the really small winged one? Cause that one always reminds me of the Clingon Bird of Prey...

I've now painted that model, so I might just take another photo of it and post it here for you all to see.

Anyway, erm, ferill, it's ok I'm not really that interested in buying it, it was just a spur of the moment thing. You'd be best selling it to someone you wouldn't need to post it to.

[Sekto Springs]

I used to be. Those paints are leftovers. Still nice and fresh though, and their pretty darn good quality so I've kept hold of them.

I have a small imperial gaurd army, comprised of a basilisk, two leman russ tanks, a sentinel, and some stormtroopers. The models were painted to the greatest degree of accuracy possible, then left on a shelf. Since then the only warhammer model I've purchased has been the chaos defiler, which I bought shortly after its official release.

I find the actual game to be somewhat dull. Lacking in interest and depth. I do admire the modelling capabilities of one or two 'Eavy Metal team members, and stare in awe at Forge World, but it's not something I make a hobby out of.

yes, i agree with you on some levels
the mechanics of the game seem to get less interesting with age, but i never get tired of glueing orcs together and painting them, I do it for the element of fun of painting/modeling them.

40k has always interested me, i sort of forgot about warhammer for about a year or so, then when i saw the 40k live videogame in a magazine I sort of picked back up on it. Since then i've extended my collection to about 300 or so figures (which could be bigger if i didn't lose some of my figures )
My side for warhammer is Orcs, Goblins, Chaos lords and just about any other non-human creature, 40k i'm a space marine guy with just about 3 regiments of every team there is.

I know a friend of mine who would love to buy all of your WH, ferill
his name is Neil, i'll PM you his PH # and such, only problem is he pays in a american currency...hopefully one of you can have the money converted

[Lucipher]

Yeah I can actually. I got lessons back in 2002.

I don't own a snowboard yet but I plan on getting one. But ferill, what exactly are you trying to imply?

It sounds a bit funny that you can afford all your airsoft guns and all your warhammer, and are you sure that you just said you can snowboard just because ferill said it? you might just be trying to impress people.

[Esus]

I beleive this is the case, because while 3D modellers might be quite talented when it comes to making things look real, often they are not very creative, and their works lack the "spark" that's needed to get original looks.

I myself, amatuerly, 3D model incredibly often with maya and 3ds max, and I don't fell I am not creative. In fact, I personally think Im very creative. I also feel 3d modelling can be very complicated, and it is undoubtedly easier to 3d model if you already have a model or blueprints to help you. I often have these aids which i myself design on paper...