The Force Awakens (and Star Wars more generally) [SPOILERS, OBVIOUSLY]

[Varrok]

Luke is Darth Vader's father

[FrustratedAssassin]

https://archive.is/G4tqQ - "Star Wars: The Force Awakens: The Pre-Sexual Fantasies of a Broken Boy"

This is so horrible

[Varrok]

Some people just see what they want to see in this movie

[STM]

Okay so I'm a bit late to the party but I finally saw the film.

First of all can we all agree that Han Solo dying was heart breaking, if not slightly predictable from the moment Han walked onto that platform.

Secondly, I think what people are saying about the the First Order being as powerful of the Empire isn't true. I think the whole story is downscaled from the epic saga of the original three films. From what we know, the First Order is largely engaged at creeping around in the shadows, picking skirmishes with the Rebels and the 'Republic'. How they built super-mega Death Star 2.0, is lost on me however. Considering the Death Star took decades and much of the Empire's strength to build...that being said maybe DS 2.0 was already in the works back when the Empire was around.

Also what planet was destroyed halfway through the movie? What was the relevance and why should we care? Was it supposed to be an Alderaan-esque test of capabilities?

I'm interested to see the universe expanded upon. A lot of people complain J. J. Abrams has played it safe and scratched the surface of the world but I feel like this first film was just setting the stage for the real story.

[Varrok]

Okay so I'm a bit late to the party but I finally saw the film.

First of all can we all agree that Han Solo dying was heart breaking, if not slightly predictable from the moment Han walked onto that platform.

We can't. I saw it coming from the first scene of him in falcon. I didn't feel exactly anything special at that scene. It's been done so many times before in movies.

Secondly, I think what people are saying about the the First Order being as powerful of the Empire isn't true. I think the whole story is downscaled from the epic saga of the original three films. From what we know, the First Order is largely engaged at creeping around in the shadows, picking skirmishes with the Rebels and the 'Republic'. How they built super-mega Death Star 2.0, is lost on me however. Considering the Death Star took decades and much of the Empire's strength to build...that being said maybe DS 2.0 was already in the works back when the Empire was around.

I think First Order is not as powerful as Empire depite having a better weapon of planet destruction than Empire

Also what planet was destroyed halfway through the movie? What was the relevance and why should we care? Was it supposed to be an Alderaan-esque test of capabilities?

It was a republic city planet. It seems like a big deal to me.
Also, if you ask questions like "Why should we care?" about a movie, then the movie does something wrong.

I'm interested to see the universe expanded upon. A lot of people complain J. J. Abrams has played it safe and scratched the surface of the world but I feel like this first film was just setting the stage for the real story.

Except the first movies didn't have to. They showed you can have a full story in one movie.

Also, how exactly did they set up the stage, really? Through character development? There wasn't much of it there, really. The world? The world is pretty much established through 6 movies that came before. The enemies? They're basically space nazis, they don't need a set-up-the-stage movies.

[Crashpunk]

A lot of people complain J. J. Abrams has played it safe and scratched the surface of the world but I feel like this first film was just setting the stage for the real story.

This. And that's perfectly fine with me. He didn't have to play it safe and I think everyone has seen A New Hope. But I think it's a good way to revive the series. A reminder of the older fans and a way to some what tell the story to younger people who haven't seen Star Wars. That's just my take on it really.

Except the first movies didn't have to. They showed you can have a full story in one movie.

Also, how exactly did they set up the stage, really? Through character development? There wasn't much of it there, really. The world? The world is pretty much established through 6 movies that came before. The enemies? They're basically space nazis, they don't need a set-up-the-stage movies.

Yes that's true, but bare in mind A New Hope was made original as a single story.

To me, they set the stage for the future of the characters. Most importantly Rey and Ren. The starting point of this new story. You come away from the film asking lots of questions. What's Luke doing on that planet? Why is Rey so strong with the Force? What'll happen to Ren now he's been physically and mentally scared, Who's Snoke? SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THE NEW REPUBLIC! and so on...

[Varrok]

All of that, or at least a large portion of that, could be explained in one movie. It had many scenes that were made mostly for fx beauty, but could be shortened/revamped/cut, story-wise.

Also, I can explain to you why Rey has such strong force powers.

hint: it has something to do with her missing parents (lazy writing)

just kidding

............

it's because of midichlorians

[Phylum]

This is a spoiler thread now. No need to use tags.

Han Solo's death was sad because it was the death of Han Solo, the pop culture icon. It was sad because of what happened, but this actual movie didn't do much to make us care. They gave it a crack with him father-figuring Rey, but honestly with the intense pace of the movie that was grasping at straws from the start.

The criticism of not caring when the planets blew up is good. That was really dumb and a big off-putting moment for lots of people. I feel like that scene was just rushed in for extra drama and that it was never supposed to actually fire. Either that, or it was going to be a bigger part of the trilogy, which is what I called when I saw there was a new death start because I thought they would do more than rehash like that.

You can't excuse the holes in this movie because it's part of a trilogy. A good movie can leave you with questions, but this movie doesn't do it in a meaningful way. The conclusion did nothing for the development of the characters, and there's no reason for this movie to not have a good ending. Rey fighting Ren was an example of exactly the same problem as Han's death - when she pulls the lightsaber to herself we get excited because that's a Jedi thing. When she force mind controls that stormtrooper for no established reason it's exciting because that's what Jedi do! Both of those things could have had significance to her character, but they don't because they were lazy and just played what the audience knows and has seen before for excitement.

Now, I'm not saying that's a a bad thing in a movie with "Episode 7" in the title, but that's not a good excuse either. It just relies on everyone loving Star Wars too much.

[Mr. Bungle]

I saw. I enjoyed. I have no desire to watch it again.

Bring on Episode 8.

[Vexen]

So many things they could have improved on. I really think that the inclusion of Kylo Ren was pointless. He was the least interesting of all the characters and the whole "kylo is our son, Han" was an extremely stupid side plot with no relevance. It might matter later on, but I don't really see the point of this, as of now.

[Phylum]

Kylo Ren was my favourite thing about the movie. He was a villain who knew he couldn't live up to Vader, on screen or in universe. He was complex. He had a clear struggle which he had to overcome, and we saw him throw a part of himself away to become what he thinks is his destiny.

[Varrok]

I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a complex character.

[FrustratedAssassin]

I just watched the movie last night. I liked it. It was better than what people online led me to believe.

The only other Star Wars movie I watched was Episode IV and yeah, they're pretty much the same movie. I'd've liked it more if it put less accent on returning characters than on the old ones, but it was good anyway.

I liked all the characters, even though it made no sense for Rey to be so overpowered in the fight with Kylo Ren.

Also I thought Kylo Ren was pretty relatable as a character. I mean he's an edgy teenager. Everyone was an edgy teenager at some point. I still am one sometimes.

[Phylum]

Varrok I'm talking comparatively >:(

But I think it's a complex idea anyway, regardless of execution.

And yeah Rey beating Ren in the fight was done weirdly. I mean, they injured him, but I feel like that should have been played up more than it was. It would have been better if he pushes himself to win despite his injuries, but he gets cocky and eventually overextends at which point Rey kicks his ass. I think it would have done much more for his character. Still nothing for Rey though.

[STM]

I honestly thought Rey severely injuring Ren was pretty cool and made some sense. It opens the question of why her powers are so latent? Who is she related to and is shethe prophecised bringer of balance to the force, not Luke? Who knowwwwwws?

[Phylum]

The prophecy about "balancing the force" is a prequel thing. I doubt they'll touch it with a 10ft pole.

And while the question is interesting, the movie really doesn't present it in a good way. Sometimes having questions after the first movie of a series is good, but in this case because they did so little with Rey it just doesn't work. They either needed to build the entire movie up to her being something greater than just some girl and go for The Matrix, or somehow tie her force-ing into her character.

As it stands it's like they tried to make her an awesome super-powered badass but forgot all of the important scenes that actually developed those ideas. When she grabs the lightsaber, all we know is that she didn't want it when Maz Catana talked to her but now she's taking it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt like we saw the beginning and ending of something but the middle got lost somewhere. Then again when she goes super mode fighting Ren - it just happens without any significance. Lots of people try to compare her power to Luke's, but when Luke blows up the Death Star it's because he's believing in the force, and it's the culmination of everything he's learnt and seen in the movie.

[Crashpunk]

Kylo Ren was great in my opinion. I wouldn't necessarily call him complex. I'd call him conflicted. He was Anakin done right. Plus I love his design together with that voice. I'm very interested to see what they do with him.

And as for the fight. You also have to remember Ren was pretty injured before the duel. Chewbacca shot him in his side and Finn stabbed his shoulder. Not to mention he just killed his father. So not only he had physically damage. He was probably overwhelmed with emotion and thought he could take on anything now, but ironically that was his downfall.

I also didn't think Rey was OP with her powers. She clearly already knew how to fight from the scene on Jakku and well she was also on the defensive for the majority of the fight. It wasn't until she remember to use the force, she took the advantage.

Also why do people complain about Rey defeating a new trained Sith, Yet Finn; A Stormtrooper. Managed to even hold any form of defense against him? I guess Stormtroopers are trained in melee combat? I dunno.

The prophecy about "balancing the force" is a prequel thing. I doubt they'll touch it with a 10ft pole.

I've got a feeling they might. But just not in the same way. I'm actually convinced we're getting some prequel stuff in EP8. convinced. But it should be alright just as long it's just used for backstory or something.

Or just the theory that Snoke is Darth Plagueis...

[Phylum]

Plagueis is barely mentioned in Episode 3 - he's more extended universe than prequel.

Also I didn't like the way Finn fighting Kylo Ren felt either, it wasn't just Rey. Again, they played the injury in a weird way. Ren went from walking a bit funny to swinging his lightsaber around no problem. It felt like he lost, and he was also injured. They should have either played up the injury or make it obvious that he was just fucking around and toying with them because he thought he was really great and powerful.

And the more I think about it the more I start to think the entire point of the movie was that Rey was supposed to be really powerful, but they just didn't do it right. Next movie will probably have the arc this movie should have had, where Rey struggles with her powers and isn't sure if she can fulfil her destiny/fill some greater role. Then you'll get all kinds of parallels with Kylo Ren - he's trying to become Vader because he thinks it's his destiny while Rey struggles with even knowing what hers is and if she can do it.

Either that or Luke is a baddie. He could be playing everyone here, even if he isn't in line with the First Order. I'd kind of love if next movie is about Luke manipulating Rey's and making her do dodgy shit, and making her learn the cost of power the hard way. Ultimately Luke would die at the end of episode 8. I really doubt they'll make Luke a baddie/morally questionable, but it isn't off the cards. What if Luke is the reason Kylo Ren thinks he's supposed to become a stone cold killer like Vader?

[Jordan]

I think Luke being evil would be a good plot point. Him ultimately falling to the dark side after the previous films would have some emotional impact and would act as a good twist if done right. And it would create an interesting relationship between him and Ren. Whether or not he becomes evil, I agree that he could die in Episode VIII. I have a feeling they're gonna kill off the original trio to make a point of making room for the new guys.

[Crashpunk]

I think Luke being evil would be a good plot point. Him ultimately falling to the dark side after the previous films would have some emotional impact and would act as a good twist if done right. And it would create an interesting relationship between him and Ren. Whether or not he becomes evil, I agree that he could die in Episode VIII. I have a feeling they're gonna kill off the original trio to make a point of making room for the new guys.

If they make Luke a bad guy. I will riot. I really can't see a way of them doing it without it not only being a massive middle finger to RotJ. But the original trilogy as a whole. I can perhaps imagine him being vengeful which made him being tempted towards the dark side. And that was the reason why he fled. But I think it's more he feels ashamed.

If they do it. It better be a damn good reason. Like. A seriously good explanation.

I reckon Luke will be a lot like Obi-Wan. But be not as vague in his teachings. Being more direct and perhaps even unwilling to teach at first. But something may convince him to start. Perhaps the death of Han or something. Who knows.

The popular theories are that Rey was a former Jedi at a young age and was being trained by Luke. But when Ren up and went nuts, She had her mind wiped and left on Jakku. Which I really don't like. it's too similar and convenient.

Oh and she's the daughter of Luke. Which I really really really hope they don't go down that route.

What if Luke is the reason Kylo Ren thinks he's supposed to become a stone cold killer like Vader?

That's a neat idea. Perhaps Ren thought Vader was doing good and Luke was the one who is evil.

I think someone needs to tell Kylo Ren that Vader killed the Emperor and redeemed himself. lol.

[STM]

Jordan doesn't even LOOK like me

I don't think Luke is gonna be the bad guy, but I think it wouldn't be inconceivable that maybe he's morally questionable, after all his training was cut short and he learnt almost as much from Vader as from Yoda in some ways.

Oh, also I bet the giant Sith Lord is Palpatine oooooooh

[FrustratedAssassin]

Jordan doesn't even LOOK like me

You're both golden OWI logos on red backgrounds, you're basically the same person.

[Crashpunk]

Oh sorry.

But seriously. Change your avatars.

[Jordan]

Oh, also I bet the giant Sith Lord is Palpatine oooooooh

I think it's been confirmed that Palpatine is 100% dead.

Oh sorry.

But seriously. Change your avatars.

I'm sorry! I did consider changing it today but I can't find my usual avatar.

[Varrok]

I still confuse my posts with STM ones

[Phylum]

after all his training was cut short and he learnt almost as much from Vader as from Yoda in some ways.

Yoda told Luke at the end of Empire that if he abandons his training to confront Vader then he'd turn to the dark side. I think they're going to at least address that.

[Nate]

...is shethe prophecised bringer of balance to the force, not Luke?

Luke wasn't the prophesied one, that was still Anakin. After all, it's Anakin who killed most of the remaining Jedi so that there were exactly two Jedi and two Sith. And it's Anakin who killed the Emperor and, in the process, himself, leaving the galaxy with only one undertrained powerful force user without strong influence from either philosophy.

[Crashpunk]

Yoda told Luke at the end of Empire that if he abandons his training to confront Vader then he'd turn to the dark side. I think they're going to at least address that.

Confronting Vader and not being turned to the Dark Side was part of his training.

You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

Also

“If you end your training now — if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did — you will become an agent of evil.”

Admittedly I had to look this up. But Luke didn't choose the quick and easy path to destroy Vader. And when he was offered to be at Vader's side. He refused even though the only other option was certain death by falling off Cloud City.

I will say Luke definitely had Dark Side tendencies. In Jabba's palace. He had that full dark robe has force chocked the guards. And he lashes out with anger when Vader found out that he has a sister. All of which he realizes after he notices Vader's missing hand and compared it to his. He was turning into just another Vader. And he stopped himself, refused the Dark Side and in-braced the Light (As well as a lot of electricity).

[Phylum]

I don't think Luke embraced the light at the end of Jedi. I mean shit, he got baited into fighting Vader just like The Emperor wanted, he just had the sense to realise he was being played. He helped Vader realise there was light inside of himself, and importantly gave Vader something to protect. I think they really leave Luke hanging in a lot of ways - a big one is how clear they make it that before The Emperor tried to kill him Luke had never seen the power of the dark side before, and they definitely show him as being a kind of angry guy.

Also you don't have to be a big bad space wizard like The Emperor was to be an agent of evil. Maybe if he'd completed his training he would have been able to stop Kylo Ren turning to the dark side - training from an inexperience Jedi might be more harm to the universe than good, if he's really just lining up some powerful young dudes to get converted.

[Nepsotic]

I think it's more of the fact that morality isn't as black-and-white as the Original trilogy makes it seem on the surface. There's a lot of subtleties.