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  #31  
05-17-2011, 02:15 PM
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Alright, that makes sense I guess.

So, what's stopping birds from evolving that way?

What made it impossible for their ancestors to (theoretically) evolve that way?
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  #32  
05-17-2011, 03:25 PM
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And I go back to my original question. What difference do you perceive between eusocial species—in which reproduction is handled by a single or small number of females, while a larger number of non-reproductive kin protect her—and a ‘super queen’.
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  #33  
05-17-2011, 03:38 PM
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MOD EDIT: In case you hadn't realised, this thread was split off from the one titled Slig In Dress.

Oops I forgot I was on the National Geographic forums. There was me expecting to see some posts about a slig in a dress!
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  #34  
05-18-2011, 12:34 AM
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I give up so all I'm gonna say now is that Ecdysis sounds like a good name for a pokemon.
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  #35  
05-18-2011, 02:08 AM
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Oops I forgot I was on the National Geographic forums. There was me expecting to see some posts about a slig in a dress!
There were some, read the first page.
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  #36  
05-18-2011, 02:12 AM
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Actually is Ecdysis a pokemon? I think it might be.
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  #37  
05-18-2011, 03:40 AM
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Woah, what do you know? vBulletin limits how long thread names can be. I was going to append "and gives up the moment Max asks him the pertinent question" to this new title.
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  #38  
05-18-2011, 04:15 AM
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I disdain the topic title but after my exam in an hour and a half I will go back and answer his question. Again.

And I don't need to prove what is blatant.
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  #39  
05-18-2011, 04:21 AM
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If I might summarise, the questions you are yet to answer are:
  1. What's the difference between eusociality and Super Queens? (This might be obvious to you, but I've never studied biology)
  2. Why can eusociality/super queens exist in mammals but be absolutely, utterly impossible in birds?
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  #40  
05-18-2011, 04:33 AM
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Ok thanks for summarising, if I manage to help you understand then can you at least give the topic a fairer name, I'm not a total dick I'm just not good at explaining.
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  #41  
05-18-2011, 04:47 AM
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Topic renamed because it was mean.
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  #42  
05-18-2011, 08:30 AM
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Thank you.

Ok, eusocial, this is a term we give to animals that have attained the highest level of social order, on par with or surpassing humans (a lot of controversy as to whether we are eusocial or semi-social.) As of 1966 eusociality can be defined with these four characteristics:

Animals cooperate effectively and care for their young

Animal generations interlock, this means that a mother might live at the same times as her son and so might the grandmother...generally because they look after each other and there is less worry about predators. Also children always outnumber the amount of predators.

Different animals are given different jobs, sometimes this even develops into a strong caste system much as in a human society.

There is a strong relation between eusocial and colonial animals such as bees, wasps and insects, one should also note that there is a difference between eusocial, the highest order and then sub-social and pre-social which are lower levels.

Funnily enough Darwin noted with a little apprehension that he could not at first explain eusociality and how it worked with his theory of evolution because these creatures generally have a mostly sterile colony and therefore their genes barely get passed on. A lot of creationists swarmed on this (if you'll pardon the pun) and still do but it isn't really an argument against evolution now because there are proofs, notably selective or inclusive fitness. Anyway I digress.

Now, a super queen is really a term coined by myself in this thread and I suppose I should say that super queens and queens are the same thing. I suppose you might want to know how a queen forms in the animal world? Well I could tell you what the current theory for how a queen bee forms but I would suggest that we look more intrepidly at termite queens because they are more akin to the queen sligs/mudokons/glukkons (for reasons I won't bother the argument with unless you ask specifically). Now, there are usually multiple queens in a termite colony in the same generation, this means that rather than being mongamous, genetic information is more varied and widely spread which is good for increasing the radiation of a selected species. A termite queen molts, through that big word ecdysis, therefore when the new 'shell' grows on the abdomen is more distended than before, this also means another set of ovaries can grow increasing maximum efficiency of reproduction.

Note the enormous abdomen in this prime queen, similar to Sam, she is practically immobile and is surveyed by an honour guard of termites to help her around and take her eggs away.

So in conclusion, eusociality is and order of sociality whereas a queen is the status given to a matriarch for a colonial species.

The next question has been partially explained in the first but I will continue, the queen (super queen) must have the acquired traits to have such an extended abdomen, in termites ecdysis is used to slowly grow the abdomen and therefore, provides more room for a queen to hold sperm and her ovaries. A bird does not have an abdomen like a insect queen and eusocial mammals do not have a queen but rather a matriarch.

If we were being hypothetical and said mudokon birds were at some point eusocial, they would probably have a matriarch like an elephant of wolf, a mother that reproduces for the colony. But somehow, as the mudokon evolved, the female that wasn't sterile acquired an enormous distended abdomen.

I hope that helped.
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  #43  
05-19-2011, 04:32 AM
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Yes, it did. Particularly in defining Eusociality, which I hadn't understood until now. Thanks.

But why couldn't birds possibly evolve a society similar to Naked Mole Rats?
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  #44  
05-19-2011, 07:59 AM
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Good, I'm sorry it too me so long to explain properly, I know from experience being in your position is annoying, I don't like teachers that can't explain for example.

In hindsight, perhaps birds could evolve a eusocial society, currently most birds are semi-social however, they excel in other areas like the ability to use tools to catch prey and to mimic sounds for reasons unknown, the fact you can teach a bird is evidence enough of intelligence.

Maybe over a period of millions of years, with specific traits discovered and limited species radiation they could evolve some form of societal existence, which would explain the rise of the mudokon.
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  #45  
05-19-2011, 08:55 AM
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...and then the whole 'It's a different planet' thing should be able to account for how a bird descendant manages to grow an enormous abdomen later in her life. Maybe it's a hormone thing, like growing tits.

Did we cover the selective fertility thing or not? What stimulates a Mudokon to grow with sexual organs or not, that sort of thing.

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Imagine if we had usurper bees, they'd be extinct in weeks.
I'd just like to point out that we do have usurper ants, with a reasonably good success rate.


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  #46  
05-19-2011, 09:02 AM
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We do? Are you sure, because generally bees and ants only take over when the queen's ovaries begin to age severely. That's not usurping that's keeping successive fertile queens going.
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  #47  
05-19-2011, 09:53 AM
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I'll look it up in my ant book and tell you tomorrow, but you do get usurpery in ant society. Plus slavery and war and farming and shit.

Basically, invasion goes like this:
  1. Egg -> Larva -> Pupa -> Ant
  2. Young queen matures in ant colony.
  3. Queen goes and has a shag, gets restless.
  4. Queen takes honour guard and heads for another nearby colony.
  5. Queen + hench-ants barge past sentries and invade nest.
  6. Invading queen + cronies make for the nursery chambers.
  7. Queen grabs some pupae, eggs. Nursery staff mob her, honour guard perish in her defence.
  8. Queen runs for it.
  9. Queen finds some secluded corner of the nest and plants pupae/eggs. Fights off any inquisitive patrols.
  10. Pupae mature, eggs hatch. Despite being a different species and often a different colour, the newborn ants see the invader as their mother and defend her from attackers.
  11. Now in relative safety, the queen begins to dig a small hole and lay her own eggs.
  12. When this strike force hatches, she leads them to the chamber of the true queen (i.e. the one who actually lives in this colony).
  13. Slaughter ensues.
  14. As the confuson builds, ants may attack their own side. In any event, the immobile home queen is quickly killled, often by her own children.
  15. The invading queen, who has been hiding out of the way throughout the carnage, plonks herself down in the old queen's hole and proceeds to start laying eggs.
  16. Invading queen is unquestioningly accepted as the new matriarch and is waited on for the rest of her life.

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  #48  
05-19-2011, 10:25 AM
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Ah, this this isn't an usurper, I knew about that but usurping is someone who gains power within their own area, William the Conqueror wasn't an usurper he was an invader.
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  #49  
05-19-2011, 10:31 AM
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16. Invading queen is unquestioningly accepted as the new matriarch [Return to STEP 4]
Fixed that for you.
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  #50  
05-19-2011, 10:35 AM
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You mean another queen I would have thought, not the same one that started the colony because what would be the point? =)
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  #51  
05-19-2011, 10:48 AM
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Ah, this this isn't an usurper, I knew about that but usurping is someone who gains power within their own area, William the Conqueror wasn't an usurper he was an invader.
It's gaining greater power within the heirarchy of the local bunch of nests.

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  #52  
05-19-2011, 01:09 PM
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Oh, so it's like, the ant queen will be a sort of neighbour to the colony she takes on...so possibly even related? Fair enough.
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  #53  
05-20-2011, 07:20 AM
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I think of ant society like warring houses of nobility. They're not all members of the royal family, but then that's just because they haven't bumped the old ones off yet.

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  #54  
05-20-2011, 12:54 PM
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Very interesting.

One thing that I just noticed is perhaps at one point all the animals had a common ancestor? At least, all the super queen ones...
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05-23-2011, 06:41 AM
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STM, you're in violation of the Forum Science Treaty. You're annexing territory that is clearly mine, and such aggression will not go unpunished.
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05-23-2011, 07:09 AM
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While you have been away I have usurped into a position of genius a la biology. If you find nothing wrong with my arguments and scientific analysis then I have been taught well. And get on to the God debate while you're at it, we need to re-run what happened last time except this time I won't be making stupid points. I've done enough already. Oh my yes.
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05-23-2011, 07:44 AM
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I value your knowledge of beekeeping and may come to you in the future, since rumblings of beekeeping are abound at home and I'm in two minds about being COVERED IN BEES.

A few points:

Termites are not closely relate to the Hymenoptera. The bees, ants and wasps. Their closest living relatives are cockroaches, and they evolved their eusocial characteristics independently. When I have time I'll research the evolution of queen-led colonies in Hymenoptera, as I don't know it is happened once and has been secondarily lost in some species, or has evolved independently on multiple occasions. To wit: there are solitary bees and solitary wasps, but no solitary ants.

I don't know of any genetic barrier to the evolution of queen colonies in vertebrates. I think you're confusing the chromosomal determination of sex as it is in bees with what permits eusociality. As it is, there is a great many means of genetically determining sex in the animals of the world. The only problems I can see are in those that can change sex, and those (such as crocodiles) whose sex is determined by temperature during incubation. In chickens, for example, YY is male and XY is female. And the platypus (or was it the echidna?) has about a dozen X and Y chromosomes, of which only the last one matters to the sex of the individual.

From and evolutionary perspective, colonies are simple than they seem. Only the queens and the drones are present in the gene pool, the rest of the colony exist to aid them. It's like the way aunts will care for their nieces, indeed, both aunts and worker bees have a genetic evolutionary interest in their nieces and reproductively fertile sisters. The genes that make good workers are present in the queen, and effectively enhance the fitness of that queen even though they may not be expressed in her.

Another parallel can be made with the cells of the body. The transition from traditional sexual reproduction of the queens and colonies is similar to the one from single celled organisms to multicellular organisms. The cells of your limbs, your liver, brain, all of them except for the germ cells in your testes, have surrendered their reproductive capabilities, investing their genetic future in your gonads. They do still reproduce, but their own lineages are doomed. Occasionally they do go rogue, cease cooperating and adopt a more traditional Darwinian strategy, but this is called cancer and ultimately loses to natural selection when the host dies. And as you may know, hormonal imbalance in a bee colony can cause workers to start reproducing as though they were queens, which leads to colonial collapse.

Eusocial models may be considered the next paradigm after multicellularity, and another dimension of genetic expression. Like the extended phenotype proposed by Dawkins, where the genes of a beaver cause great environmental change by building dams, the genes of a queen bee directly enhance her fitness by being expressed in her infertile daughters.

Again, I see no genetic barrier to this in vertebrates such as birds, or molluscs such as squid. There may be other barriers. It, or the stages leading to it, may simply be less efficient and effective as a survival and reproductive strategy for such species than the traditional model they currently have. That may change in the future. Or not.

Thee are already documented many other organisms displaying eusocial organisation. Some are tricky to determine, being less clear cut and representing half-way stages, their evolution toward eusocial structure being incomplete. On top of the naked mole rate, these include a shrimp, a spider, aphids, thrips and ambrosia beetles.
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  #58  
05-23-2011, 09:15 AM
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Hey if you ever get bees, send me an email and I can help you, even swing by if you like. Tis a fantastic machine, the colony of a bee!
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Hmm, you slightly misconstrued what I said about hymenoptera, I know that termites bare no relation but socially they are similar.

Everything else seems to make sense. May I ask, and this is just broad speculation, do you think bees will ever find themselves evolving beyond their simple means to use tools and perhaps advanced communication? We know they are massively intelligent and have a basic 'language' as it is...
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  #59  
05-23-2011, 10:12 AM
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They're only intelligent as a group, in a way we would not intuitively understand. You might as well point to brains and use them to prove the great intelligence of individual brain cells.

They already have advanced communication down pat. Dances, pheromones and hormones. It's not all that basic really.

As far s I know they don't use tools in any way. I suppose it is possible that they might become really intelligent, probably not individually but as a colonial entity. But I don't think it will ever happen. That sort of intelligence is entirely unnecessary, and there are so many more efficient and easily evolved characteristics than sapience for the purposes of survival. I'm no expert, But I suspect that being eusocial is an inhibiting factor on evolving intelligence like our own and those of other primates, cetaceans and birds. A large factor in evolving and developing intelligence is interacting with like individuals, being able to understand them and their needs as they understand you and your own. That is society and social development. But bees and the like have already achieved maximum efficiency (for the purposes of this discussion) in social interaction, purpose and sacrifice. As I say, they've even assigned all of their reproductive requirements to a role filled by one or a few individuals. Individual bees don't need to understand each other to get by, they only need to fulfil their own role and the tasks therein. Which they do autonomously, essentially biological machines. The colony itself is more befitting the term of organism than the individual bees. Going back to my previous analogy:

Unit: cell.
Collection of cells for particular function: tissue.
Collection of tissues for particular function: organ.
Collection of organs for particular function: system.
Collection of systems for being alive: organism.
Collection of organisms for whatever: colony.

I think the only way any intelligence will evolve is if multiple colonies have to start cooperating without becoming the same colony, in the way groups of social animals do. I don't expect this to ever happen, but predicting this stuff is a mug's game and evolution is brilliant at generating left-field surprises.
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  #60  
05-23-2011, 10:17 AM
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I suppose so. And bees do use tools in the simplest of ways, i.e. knocking a stick over to provide a slope to reach a drinking area.
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