So, Capitalism. What's up with that?

[Admiral Zaarin]

I don't think we need any alternatives to capitalism as an ideology of world economy. Planned economy, which is a real alternative to classic capitalism, isn't that effective, at least in practice. As for communism - it can't be an alternative as it is just an utopia and something that would never exist in reality.

I think world needs to fight monopolies in any of their forms as monopolies slow down progress for the sake of their own profits. Also I think that oil lobbies are very harmful for development and integration of new energy technologies. In fact any manufacturing lobby is hostile towards innovations in it's area of science.

In fact I can't comment much on this subject as I'm studying to be a mathematician but not an economist.

[used:)]

I get quite annoyed when people proclaim their dislike of a policy by stating that it's socialist. Yes well, so are public schools, police and fire departments, and social security. Shall we abandon all these things because you've been told that they are evil?

Yes, it's since when has it come to be synonymous with Fascism?

[OANST]

I want some serious campaign contribution reform. Corporations are not people. They should not be able to buy my government.

[Wings of Fire]

Well, probably the biggest misconception and the aspect most retroactive to progress about the Cold War is it was advertised (And to some extent still is) as a 'War of Ideology'. This created the 'Us and them' mentally which is still very present in America, as well as some parts of Europe.

That's dumb, the Cold War was never a 'War of Ideology'. It was between an evil tyrant hiding behind an ideology that him, his colleagues and his predecessor had long since warped and perverted and the rest of the world, who were rightly terrified at his efficiency and ambition.

So yeah, one of the biggest ideological obstacles in place to people accepting Socialism as an alternative to Capitalism is the inherent associations to Stalinism, Khrushchevism and to some degree Leninism.

I'd just like to take a moment to recommend this book to anyone interested. Rius is a very funny and interesting cartoonist and writer.

EDIT:

Yes, it's since when has it come to be synonymous with Fascism?

Actually it's dumb interpretations of Animal Farm and 1984 that have also played a huge part in that. Most people who have never read either of these books will tell you that both of them are considered objections to Communist thought. Which is bullshit.

[Admiral Zaarin]

Yes, it's since when has it come to be synonymous with Fascism?

Seriosly, why people do not stick to definitions?

Socialism is a form of economical organization.
Fascism have nothing to do with economy.
Socialism may be associated with atrocities for some but it's only due to people operating definitions improperly. So if we speak of economy we should use definitions right by the book.

I personally don't like main ideas of socialism, such as lack of private property. I think it discourages people from working hard. Also socialism is associated with plan economy which in practice tends to ineffective use of materials and distribution of goods.

[Wings of Fire]

I think he meant 'Why has the economical system of Socialism become associated with the totalitarian and repressive social system of Fascism?' Which to a large extent it has.

[OANST]

Seriosly, why people do not stick to definitions?

Socialism is a form of economical organization.
Fascism have nothing to do with economy.
Socialism may be associated with atrocities for some but it's only due to people operating definitions improperly. So if we speak of economy we should use definitions right by the book.

I personally don't like main ideas of socialism, such as lack of private property. I think it discourages people from working hard.

Because we are speaking of public opinion. We are not discussing this in a clinical sterilized way.

And spell seriously right if you want to make an attack on someone.

[Wings of Fire]

I personally don't like main ideas of socialism, such as lack of private property. I think it discourages people from working hard.

Work as hard as you want, unless you're good enough playing the system to exploit and manipulate it you will never be in a position to own any sort of private property that hasn't got a relative value of zilch.

[shaman]

unless you're good enough playing the system to exploit and manipulate it you will never be in a position to own any sort of private property that hasn't got a relative value of zilch.

See: "Every financial system anywhere ever".

I can't really see a problem with somone playing the game and reaping the rewards because they've got good at it.

[Wings of Fire]

Oh?

[OANST]

See: "Every financial system anywhere ever".

I can't really see a problem with somone playing the game and reaping the rewards because they've got good at it.

That isn't the problem. The problem is when they do so through gross exploitation of workers, and inhumane practices. Many of these huge corporations open up factories in countries that allow them to employ people under the most disgusting conditions, and pay them next to nothing. Then, when a catastrophe happens they abandon the populace to generations of debilitating illness, cancer, and barren wombs. Check out Union Carbide for more fun examples.

[shaman]

Well, if they've worked their whole life to get there...

What i have a problem with are the people who attain a certain level, and use their influence to change the rules to suit themselves. That brand of "manipulating the system" is not acceptable. But complaints about having to work and gain knowledge of how the system works to own private property are rather silly. How else do you expect to get there?

EDIT: OANST posted: i was more thinking of the individual. Not corporations.

[OANST]

I was going to show you pictures of the Bhopal disaster to give you an idea of what unchecked capitalism is capable of, but I became so disgusted that I decided not to.

And the individual does not get that wealthy without the corporation.

[shaman]

I know what the Bhopal disaster was. But that wasn't what i was getting at. I was puzzled by WOF's statement that an individual cannot hope to even obtain a valuable property without playing the system. Because that much is obvious and not a problem.

[Wings of Fire]

My point is that playing the system is dishonest and only available to the exceedingly lucky or Machivellian.

If you eventually come to earn over 100K a year you will be rolling in it, but you'll be paying most of that as tax, you'll be paying the costs of living and you'll probably be supporting your family. You will never be in a position to own money generating property unless you come up with a novel idea and can make the bank accept the value of said idea.

Or you could fraud, embezzle, blackmail and generally lie your way to the top. Like mobsters and other assorted scum do.

When I talk of property I do not talk of residential property sorry, and there is generally some class flexibility. But generally speaking the gap between Upper Middle and Upeer is a closed door.

EDIT: You can also play the stock market, I suppose that's the main way of playing the Capitalist system, but I'll be damned if that's at all related to your skill and worth as a human being.

[~Oprilthevykker~]

I think everyone is entitled to make as much money as they can. If you have the job skills and education, then more power to you! I certainly prefer our capitalistic economy and society over the thoughts of socialism, fascism or communism. Watch Glen Beck on Fox news sometime and see where or country seems to be heading - not in the right direction for sure.

[Wings of Fire]

Oh you did not.

YOU DID NOT JUST SAY THAT

[shaman]

He did, and i don't disagree. Except however that not everyone is able to get a good education, this is why i don't agree with private education, why should those with more money get a (theoretically) better start?

[Wings of Fire]

GLEN FUCKING BECK FUCKING GLEN BECK FUCKING FUCK TITTYFUCK GLEN BECK

[OANST]

I think everyone is entitled to make as much money as they can. If you have the job skills and education, then more power to you! I certainly prefer our capitalistic economy and society over the thoughts of socialism, fascism or communism. Watch Glen Beck on Fox news sometime and see where or country seems to be heading - not in the right direction for sure.

You have gone far beyond the realm of me being either able or willing to help you. Glen Beck? Glen fucking Beck? Goddamn it.

[shaman]

Rejecting the Kyoto protocall *grumbles*

[Wings of Fire]

Fellow Europeans and Australians, this is Glen Beck.

[Strike Witch]

Benn Gleck.

I guess this explains why Opril is such a whackjob.

[~Oprilthevykker~]

Even if you don't have the money for an education, there are millions of people in this country over the last century that have started with nothing, but have worked hard and became millionaires none the less. Inventions, new ideas, good work ethic - ever heard of any of these things? Or even any of the people that have done it this way? And, what is all the fuss about Glen Beck? Listen to his views sometime and you might learn a little something about what this country was founded on! No need to get nasty!

[Bullet Magnet]

Dammit, we're in dire need of a good pandemic to shake things up. At the very least we should see a disproportionate mortality rate among the terminally stupid.

[OANST]

The man who touts freedom of religion, but only believes in the freedom to be Christian? The man who thinks that health care reform is merely slave reparations? The man who admits that global warming might be real, but says that humans aren't the cause? The man who thinks that the American Clean Energy and Security Act is a means for wealth redistribution? The man who opposes the Kyoto Protocol? THE MAN WHO SHAKES THE HANDS OF AND CONGRATULATES PEOPLE HOLDING SIGNS THAT HAVE PICTURES OF OUR PRESIDENT WITH HITLER MOUSTACHES ON THEM? THE MAN WHO ASKED A MUSLIM CONGRESSMAN TO PROVE THAT HE WASN'T WORKING WITH THE ENEMY? THE MAN WHO SAID THAT BARACK OBAMA HATES WHITE PEOPLE? THE MAN WHO OH GOD OH FUCK OH FUCKING CHRIST ON A CHRISTMAS TREE IM HAVING A FUCKING SEIZURE FUCKING DIE MOTHERFUCKER DIE.

[~Oprilthevykker~]

The man who touts freedom of religion, but only believes in the freedom to be Christian? The man who thinks that health care reform is merely slave reparations? The man who admits that global warming might be real, but says that humans aren't the cause? The man who thinks that the American Clean Energy and Security Act is a means for wealth redistribution? The man who opposes the Kyoto Protocol? THE MAN WHO SHAKES THE HANDS OF AND CONGRATULATES PEOPLE HOLDING SIGNS THAT HAVE PICTURES OF OUR PRESIDENT WITH HITLER MOUSTACHES ON THEM? THE MAN WHO ASKED A MUSLIM CONGRESSMAN TO PROVE THAT HE WASN'T WORKING WITH THE ENEMY? THE MAN WHO SAID THAT BARACK OBAMA HATES WHITE PEOPLE? THE MAN WHO OH GOD OH FUCK OH FUCKING CHRIST ON A CHRISTMAS TREE IM HAVING A FUCKING SEIZURE FUCKING DIE MOTHERFUCKER DIE.

Because you couldn't be any more wrong dude, maybe you should watch
his program before making false accusations. Pilot, and I both love
glen beck.

[OANST]

I've seen his show. Multiple times. And he has done and said all of those things.

[Strike Witch]

Fucking rednecks on the internet again.

[OANST]

Someone sever the dial-up connection. This is getting out of hand.