Abortion

[Anonyman!]

Because it's not the government's right to decide whether it's right or not.

ABORTION
ABORTION

[used:)]

I'm with Anonyman. In a situation so personal and sensitive, it should be no one's right but the mother to decide what to do.

[ArtemisPanthar]

People who feel they need an abortion but don't fit into the neatly pre-approved list of reasons to have one, most likely compiled by someone who has never been in that situation, will most likely have an abortion illegally anyway in an entirely dangerous manner.

I've always been curious why people think the bulk of people who have abortions do so lightly. Its typically an agonizing decision that forever has repercussions on the woman's psyche but people do what they think is best. No one sets out to have abortions because they want to kill babies.

Its a sensitive issue, and as others have said it cannot be solved as easily as a "yes or no". Its complicated and each situation is unique. To lump everyone together in generalized categories is ignorant and only clouds the issue further.

[Nate]

WoF is the only person here who is talking sense. Why should a growing life be terminated just because the mother/father was lazy with contraception? A fetus can feel and think after only a couple of weeks after conception.

It sucks because in Queensland abortions are covered by Medicare (government health insurance) so basically you can destroy a baby whenever you want for free.

Yes, you can do it whenever you want, up until 22 weeks, when you can't.

And, in case you've missed it, WoF has also stated that, despite his moral opposition, he believes that abortions should be legal.




Also, ArtemisPanthar has said pretty much what I wanted to say, but better than I could have. Everyone I've met (which is not a large number) or seen on tv (many more) who has had an abortion has agonised about it and, in many cases, regretted it. And yet most of them still agree that it should be a legal option for women in their situation.

[Alcar]

The mother's life and well-being (emotionally, physically, etc) always comes before that of her unborn child. While stupidity shouldn't be rewarded with easy get-out-of-jail-free fixes - I wouldn't want to be the child born only out of fear of judicial repercussions.

As males, in the grand scheme of things, we shouldn't have any bearing on legislation relating to abortion. We are eternally biased, despite whatever empathy we may feign.

Alcar...

[UnknownSlig]

Hey! Who changed the name!

[Nate]

I changed the name because I thought it was a horrible name for a serious thread.

Alcar: How do you feel about cases where the man wants the woman to abort and she disagrees? Given that he has legal obligations as biological father that he may not wish - or be able - to perform, does he not have any rights?



Also, as an interesting Religion 101, Catholicism always puts the right of the child over and above the right of the mother. Thus, the only time they ever allow abortion is if it's strongly likely that both the mother and the child are going to die from complications in the pregnancy. If the mother might die in childbirth, but still produce a living child, abortion is not allowed.

Judaism still bans abortions but if the mother's life is at risk, they are allowed. I suspect that there are some rabbis who would allow it for psychological reasons as well, but I haven't looked in to that in depth.

[moxco]

I changed the name because I thought it was a horrible name for a serious thread.

Alcar: How do you feel about cases where the man wants the woman to abort and she disagrees? Given that he has legal obligations as biological father that he may not wish - or be able - to perform, does he not have any rights?

I've thought about this before and there is no easy conclusion. At first I thought that if one parent wanted to abort the child should be born and the parent who wants the abortion gets out of child support. But then people would just use that as an excuse so instead it is up to judges to make the decision.

[Havoc]

I changed the name because I thought it was a horrible name for a serious thread.

Alcar: How do you feel about cases where the man wants the woman to abort and she disagrees? Given that he has legal obligations as biological father that he may not wish - or be able - to perform, does he not have any rights?

The father is always fucked in those situations. In fact, my best friend is in that situation right now. Long story short, love apparently blinded him from the huge backstabbing bitch that she really was and now (I think) she stopped using anti conception to keep him with her. She refused to abort and now she's 8 months pregnant.

He's being a sport about it and is trying his best to cope, but I hate the bitch for doing this to him. I'm sure he'll be a good father. I'm also sure she will be a very bad mother.

It's fucked up that the rules concerning abortion and/or mom/dad lawsuits always favor the mother. It should be looked at on a case by case basis.

[Wings of Fire]

And, in case you've missed it, WoF has also stated that, despite his moral opposition, he believes that abortions should be legal.

Oh yes, I'd staunchly oppose any government that tried to bring it in, firstly on principle, but secondly because I believe just as vehemently that it's the job of the mother to recognize this as an inherently wrong action.

I wouldn't accuse or pariah anyone if they did this either, the most I'd be is faintly disappointed.

[shaman]

I think abortion is ok in a few circumstances, such as if it poses a considerable threat the the life of the mother, or the child has a severe metal/ pysical defect which would greatly affect it's quality of life. But yes i do agree with one particullar vibe i got from reading this thread; just because somone was being lazy or irresponsible, it is no excuse to end a human life. And i've heard the excuse "it's their body so it's their choice" but the way i see it, it's not just you you have to think about, it's the body and the life of the child - that matters to.


shaman

[Alcar]

How do you feel about cases where the man wants the woman to abort and she disagrees? Given that he has legal obligations as biological father that he may not wish - or be able - to perform, does he not have any rights?

Interesting question. I believe that as the bearer of the child, the woman should have the last say. The impacts on the mother, especially their mental/psychological well-being are far more detrimental than those on the father.

I find it funny that a couple can give up their child for adoption, and therefore lose all legal obligations, but a sole party cannot.

Alcar...

[ArtemisPanthar]

I feel that there are more viable reasons than just potentially fatal childbirth or severe birth defects. Lets try a hypothetical:

A relatively poor working class single-mother has three children and currently works 2-3 jobs in order to be able to afford the cost of living. They live paycheck-to-paycheck with little wiggle room, but they're happy and want for nothing. Then the woman gets pregnant. It could be for any reason - carelessness, malfunctioning contraception, rape/coercion, anything. But it happened and now she's pregnant. There's no way she could afford another child, she knows this. But there's a bigger problem. Pregnancy is taxing on the body, eventually she may not be able to work by the end of her pregnancy, but not working means she couldn't afford food or shelter for her family. Maternity leave isn't always with-pay, especially for less-than-legal establishments, and although there are laws meant to protect mothers some places do fire employees who get pregnant. Additionally, the woman is at risk for pregnancy-related illness like toxemia which, while it isn't fatal, requires her to be on strict bedrest for weeks/months prior to the birth. Weeks/months she won't be having any income.
The father has disappeared/gotten arrested/whatever, so he can't 'help' and the woman has no family able/willing to help her. The government can't provide enough money to cover the woman and her three children and there's a big possibility they will take her children from her.

What does she do?

[Havoc]

So the woman has three children, husband has run off, she meets a new guy who also knocks her up and also runs off... I'd say she has a bad taste for men.

In any case the conclusion still stands. You know you are pregnant after at most two months, at which point there should still be plenty of time to abort and there isn't any life to speak of yet. There isn't anything present that resembles a baby. So aborting it should not be a problem. I don't get why people make such a fuss about it.

We're already with 7 billion people on this planet, looking at the way things are currently going would it seriously hurt to limit the amount of new people being pooped out on a daily basis? I mean, I would understand if people had an issue if there were only a few hundred people left on the planet, but come on? Most of you pro-lifers don't even know the person in question. You should stay out of each others business, especially things like pregnancy.

Also, think about this for a moment. You know how everyone is always saying 'the next Einstein could be born right now'.

Well, if you turn that around you could turn it into 'the would be next Hitler could be being aborted right now.' Yay!

[Wings of Fire]

In any case the conclusion still stands. You know you are pregnant after at most two months, at which point there should still be plenty of time to abort and there isn't any life to speak of yet. There isn't anything present that resembles a baby. So aborting it should not be a problem. I don't get why people make such a fuss about it.

I absolutely refuse to accept that line of argument; Potential Life = Life, and any arguments along the line of defining when Potentiality becomes Life is just making excuses for yourselves.

You're killing babies, man up and accept it.

[used:)]

Paraphrasing BM, just keep in mind that in this day and age, the cheek cells that slide down your throat every second have all the potential to become children. If you're going to equate potential life with life then you're killing millions of children every time you jack off.

Also, in relation to Nate's editing of the title to better suit the seriousness of the topic, can we please edit out the skull emoticon as well?

[OANST]

Complicated issue. Much of how I feel has actually been stated by WoF. I am also of the opinion that they must be legal, however.

[Havoc]

I absolutely refuse to accept that line of argument; Potential Life = Life, and any arguments along the line of defining when Potentiality becomes Life is just making excuses for yourselves.

You're killing babies, man up and accept it.

I kill millions of potential babies every day when I have sex or jerk off. I don't hear anyone complaining about that? So where DO we draw the line, anyway?

[OANST]

Left to their own devices, semen will swim around for a few days and die. Left to it's own devices, a fertilized egg will grow, and grow, and grow.

[used:)]

Unless the conditions permit their growth, just as a fetus will grow if its conditions are right. There's a lot of room for fetal mortality whether it's intended or not.

Also, next time I need paraphrasing, I'll come to you Havoc.

[Voodoo Hand]

I absolutely refuse to accept that line of argument; Potential Life = Life, and any arguments along the line of defining when Potentiality becomes Life is just making excuses for yourselves.

Although I would like to agree with this,"Potential Life" is just so vague.
Is the damp spot on the sheets, after a wet dream,or a used tampon Potential Life ?
I don`t think so, but maybe you do.
With out some definition this concept is unworkable.
I guess the real crux of the problem is, who defines it, you, the Government , the voting public , the church , the mother , some geek in a lab coat with a test tube mentality .

[Wings of Fire]

Potential Life: Something which has the potential under natural and individual circumstances to form life with some form of sentience.

Examples: Fetuses, eggs, frogspawn etc etc.

A single sperm has about as much potential for life as an interesting geo-formation about to be struck by lightning.

[Anonyman!]

As long as you realize your opinion should have absolutely no hold over another person's, you can think whatever you want.

[ArtemisPanthar]

Potential Life: Something which has the potential under natural and individual circumstances to form life with some form of sentience.

Examples: Fetuses, eggs, frogspawn etc etc.

A single sperm has about as much potential for life as an interesting geo-formation about to be struck by lightning.

Why are eggs potential life but not sperm?

[shaman]

Good point, the term "fertilised EGG" does seem to suggest that it contains more potential for life - rather unfair.

[Havoc]

As long as you realize your opinion should have absolutely no hold over another person's, you can think whatever you want.

Well generally when the topic of abortion is concerned, there are three people involved. So much for not holding your own opinion over someones head.

We have a mother who doesn't want to be a mom.

A father who doesn't want to be a dad.

A future kid who doesn't feel welcome because he was an 'accident'.

All because aborting a fetus is so wrong.

I have no problem if people want to have a baby against their own will. If you want to be stupid, be my guest. But, like with religion, the minute you force it onto someone else (or even kill someone else over it) I will hunt you down with a shotgun.

[Wings of Fire]

Why are eggs potential life but not sperm?

Good point, the term "fertilised EGG" does seem to suggest that it contains more potential for life - rather unfair.

I mean a bird egg Godsdamnit, a fertilized egg is under the etc etc.

[joshkrz]

Its the mothers choice, situations happen where that don't want a baby. Even if they don't want it for some unknown reason, its their choice.

The thing is, if its made illegal, I'm sure someone will start performing abortions illegally and not following any rules and health and safety procedures just to make cash, regardless of the mothers safety. Or the coat-hanger will be brought back in again.

This isn't the best source but this is my point.

Self-induced abortion is illegal in most jurisdictions—even where abortion itself is legal—and may present a grave threat to the life of a woman. An unsuccessful attempt to induce such an abortion can also cause lasting damage to the foetus. Presently this is fairly common where abortion is illegal or unavailable.

I think its better on this point alone that it stays legal.

[used:)]

I have no problem if people want to have a baby against their own will. If you want to be stupid, be my guest. But, like with religion, the minute you force it onto someone else (or even kill someone else over it) I will hunt you down with a shotgun.

That's such a terribly cynical point of view. It's not being stupid to choose to nurture the new life you've begun to create despite whatever circumstances, it's selfless and compassionate. I'm sure you don't think all cases are the same, but doing something you believe is right no matter however it inconveniences you doesn't make it stupid. People don't always do things because their religion or authority makes them.

If I was in the situation of having an unintended pregnancy without the means to raise the future child properly or if it meant compromising my own ambitions, I would choose to have the child, if I had any say in it, that is. I would let the mother make the call.

[T-nex]

I think the choice should ultimately be the host's choice(i wont say mother because she isn't a mother yet).

This topic has made me ponder a lot... I think the topic on abortion comes down to what we think is right. Just like the discussion on religion, veganism and all those topics with endless debates. Abortion is also about having freedom to choose. To what extent do we have the right to freedom? Is freedom just an illusion?
By getting an abortion we strip away the freedom of an unborn baby that might have grown up to be an excellent human.
On the other hand... It could have been feeling unwanted, thus getting into all sorts of 'rebellious' stuff that many troubled kids do and ending up in an unhappy life.
But if we force people to keep the baby, we strip the freedom of choosing whether or not we want or are ready to have one.
I actually feel bad when I hear about people having abortions. I don't think death is a bad thing... But something about abortion just tells me: "You should have been more careful" Or "Where's your responsibility?". But I don't feel it's exactly wrong either. Fetuses in my eyes, aren't fully developed humans.
I also ask my: Why is life so sacred? I see beauty in both death and life, yet we cling to life. And why do people care so much about keeping a mass of cells intact, yet eat/kill animals, step on bugs, and join the army? A fetus doesn't even have thoughts yet. It hasn't started learning anything. It doesn't have friends and memories. It doesn't feel sadness or pain(i might be proven wrong, but right now this is what I believe).
Once the brain is developed to a certain extent, the human will start feeling, and that is when I draw the line. Once a thing 'feels' i think killing that being is a no-no.
But anyway, If we say that fetuses are worth the same rights to life as fully developed humans... Then what about living creatures? Surely they have a higher awareness than a fetus? But we still kill them. My brain just doesn't see the lofic in all this.

And WoF You say that if we let nature run it's natural course, a life would form... And lets exclude sperm(when masturbating and such)... But what about contraption? It's basically the same... Just not as technical. If we had let nature run its natural course(not wearing a condom), a life might have come out from it. And if you dispute this, are you right about it too?
Where do we draw the line? How do we know when to? And who is right? Us? Fundamental Christians? There really is no right or wrong. There's just what the majority agrees upon. Sure we could choose to look at it from the biological point of view... That our goal in life is to reproduce and have our race survive. But is that really it? Do we -have- to go by those guidelines? What about religion? In their eyes they are right and others are wrong. Then someone says that the religious people are wrong. But who's right inn this case? I think it just comes down to oneself. We all apply our own reality to well... reality. If people agree for you, then yay for you.. If they don't well tough luck cos it's not going to change without alot of pursuation.

I wish there was a way to make everyone happy. To make them see the light. But the annoying thing is that everyone feels this way.

But when all comes to all... I think that abortions are needed in these days. Id rather see a woman have an abortion, and wait till she's actually ready for a child, and then see that child be born into a happy life, rather than a child being born into a dysfunctional environmnet(not saying it's always like this).
Also I know that hadn't it been for science, we wouldn't even have this opportunity... But the same goes for medicine and operations. Humanity moves forward. Maybe abortions were invented because they would help huminty.. Ideally anyway.

I like the conclusion I came up with when I talked to WoF last night: Abortion is wrong. Taking potential life is wrong. But sometimes it's just what people need, and I would never blame a person or think badly of them if they ever had an abortion. Unless they were blatantly irresponsible about it.

Also.. I really admire people who go through the pregancy anyway. Those people are strong and they don't let fear get to them. But I also hope they will love the child with all of their heart. That is truly beautiful.
And to let everyone know not all 'unwanted' kids end up being bad... I have a friend who dispite having being 'unwanted' and having cruel parents, is one of the kindest people I know and quite intelligent too.

Bah.. now my brain hurts.

EDIT: oof... all these thoughts haven't completely fallen into place inside me yet, so excuse me if they were unorganized....
But what I meant to draw out from all this is: Since there is basically no right or wrong, but what feel feel inside ourselves... Then what agreement could we possibly come to that would make everyone happy?