Hello

[Cullen Heath]

I realize that its common to call someone stupid here or anywhere on this earth, but you however have taken it too far! Do you read some of your own posts and realize what you are saying to other people? Its NOT something to be proud of.

[Salamander]

sheesh can we please stop the bickering, and cullen i would suggest not arguing with used there are better things in the world to do

[used:)]

Do you read some of your own posts and realize what you are saying to other people? Its NOT something to be proud of.

Do YOU read some of yuor posts? You are probably one of the most annoyingn people I have ever seen on the forums, I mean, god, you never shut up.

[Dino]

Dino, dude, unexeptable posting. Freedom of speech (in ANY comunity or country) does not extend indefinitly. Slander is a crime. On forums, flaming is against the rules. And on a forum with potentialy young members, profanity should NOT be used.

It doesn't count as slander if it's true or if it's stated as an opinion. We have a right to state our opinions and points of view - in fact that's the whole point of a forum. If people can't take that then they're not only not fit to be on a forum, they're also not fit for life. Life isn't all plain sailing, it's not all positive, and nobody is perfect. Sometimes you get offended, sometimes you look bad, but if you know anything about life then you do the smart thing and get over it.

Now before you go getting me wrong, I'm not trying to justify flaming here... there's a line between honesty and flaming. What I am trying to do though is oppose your politically correct suggestion that entirely outlawing negative opinions and points of view will solve flaming, because it won't.

How can anyone learn how to behave if everyone is too polite to say anything? How does censorship help in this scenario? Like I said, there's certainly a point where honesty turns into an actual attack, and I think that we should be weary of that. But really, what is the point in effectively painting smiles all over the community so that nobody ever looks unhappy? What you'd be creating wouldn't be real or appealing so people would just leave, and that would defeat the point.

The mods and admins have never shown any desire to install your sort of extremist utopian ideals anyway, so I don't even know why there is any kind of discussion about it.

My posting isn't unacceptable in my opinion. Used's is maybe, but mine isn't. In fact, I was partly joking around. I doubt that I offended anyone, I expect the majority of people will probably ignore it entirely, Fuzzle Guy included.

And Ambi, I'm curious, may I ask what gives you the right to judge the sincerity of my motives and act on that judgement as though your judgement is infallable?

[Adder]

Dino, even if I were to say "My next-door neighbour is, in my opinion, a tight assed, beastiality supporting chicken who likes to molest hamsters" it still would count as slander (or if not slander, defimation of character). Just saying "In my opinion" does not exempt you from law.


As for my "extremist utopian ideals", I do not have a problem with people expressing a difference of opinion. In fact, I greatly encourage people expressing their opinion as long as they take the time to do it in a mature, calm way. An opinion should have something to ground it. There's no point saying "I think hell is cold" or "Spice Girls are {IMO} the best band in the world" unless you can back it up. Before posting an opinion, question it.

"How can anyone learn how to behave if everyone is too polite to say anything? How does censorship help in this scenario?"

The point of politeness is that people should be polite. I'll admit, people aren't polite. There's a kid on my road who (when he would have been around 5) called me a "lez bean".
This does not stop me from acting poilite. People should realise everyone else is a person, and treat them as they would treat themselves. (NOTE: I am not trying to religiously alter anyone, or suporting any particular religious belief. I just know we're all human. Comunities and Society require equality.)

As for censorship, if a young Odd fan sees people profaning on OWF, they'll assume it's the norm. I may be extremely old-fashioned about this, but I think censorship is necesary, but varies in intensity depending on the audience. If this site was "mature" rated, I would not encourage censorship.

As to your final statement (which I know is not directed at me), it seems that Ambi was just stating an opinion like you did. I did not see any statement of infallibility made, so it is your assumption that Ambi assumes s/he is infallable (which is probably flawed).

[AquaticAmbi]

Ahh, censorship. So debatable with all the infriging upon each other's rights issues and whatnot. A line has to be established somewhere when it comes to censorship. The best way to describe this is "Your rights end where mine begin." In relation to forums, this would probably be considered where, like Dino just mentioned, being honest ends and attacking begins. It could also apply to profanity, mature content, etc. "I should have the right to post whatever I want" but "I should also have the right to browse the forums without seeing obscenely offensive posts." A balance is always difficult to find.

EDIT: Dino, blah, I don't really feel like getting in some argument; I will only say that of course my judgement is not infallible, especially opinions that I post when I'm half-asleep. Just so you know, my beliefs/opinions haven't really changed just my mood as I described a few days ago. If no one's going to do anything about "the problem" then might as well try to co-exist. *Shruggy*

[Kimon]

People should realise everyone else is a person, and treat them as they would treat themselves.

It's WAY more fun the other way.

Apparently, my idea of flaming was skewed. I guess flaming is insulting without reason. I don't advocate this. Insults that have been provoked or are deserved, however, are perfectly valid in my opinion.

Anyway, blegh to you all.

[Dino]

Dino, even if I were to say "My next-door neighbour is, in my opinion, a tight assed, beastiality supporting chicken who likes to molest hamsters" it still would count as slander (or if not slander, defimation of character). Just saying "In my opinion" does not exempt you from law.

Since your whole argument revolves around this point, I've chopped it here.

Just saying "In my opinion" DOES exempt you from the law actually. For instance, criticism, negative reviews, journalism, parody, etc. These are all allowed in the public domain in good or bad taste, profanites or not, because they represent the opinions of individuals and not facts. This is called fairness in the marketplace - just as traders have the right to sell their wares and claim that they're "the best", unsatisfied consumers have the right to point out that "they're not". This freedom to openly express discontent at the risk of causing a business to lose it's customers makes it difficult for unscrupulous businesses to make any sales. In effect it "raises the bar" so to speak.

Also, it's fine to say "The spice girls are the best band in the world in my opinion" just as it's fine to say "The christian god is the real god in my opinion". It's an opinion, not a fact, which means it's only true to one person, the person who holds that opinion. It's only wrong if you present opinion as fact.

Now, there is the small matter of intentions, which complicates things a bit - if a person expresses their opinion with an intent to insult, it becomes wrong in certain communities. An example of this would be: "In my opinion, you're a fucking moron". In some communities however, the response to that would be simply "well that's fine, that's your opinion and you have a right to that, but I disagree so we'll go our seperate ways". Even in these communities, there is usually a limit to how much of this you can get away with, but generally it's acceptable so long as you make at least an equal number of positive/constructive/nonselfish contributions.

As for censorship, there needs to be some give and take. Your rights end where mine begin is a good phrase, but can evolve difficulties if not everyone is aware of those rights, or if some feel that their rights have been breached when in fact they have not. Example; you do not have the right to go everywhere and do everything without being offended by something, as what's considered "offensive" is relative, and it would therefore be impossible to meet up to everyone's standards. But you DO have the right to go everywhere and do everything without being personally insulted.

[Adder]

...traders have the right to sell their wares and claim that they're "the best", unsatisfied consumers have the right to point out that "they're not".

WRONG! You cannot come all out and say "this is the best". That's why Carlsburg use the phrase "probably the best". You cannot lie in advertising without breaking laws. Unles you can systematicaly prove it's the best, you can't say it's the best.
I may not have studied law but I have studied business, so I know that I'm right on that front. As for opinion being legal exemption... well, I was only using common sence, but I'd be appauled if just three words (IMO) exempt you from defemation of character.

Also, it's fine to say "The spice girls are the best band in the world in my opinion" ... It's an opinion, not a fact, which means it's only true to one person, the person who holds that opinion. It's only wrong if you present opinion as fact.

...I'll give you that one. Opinions need to be stated as opinions. As long as people recognise they're ONLY opinions, there's no problem.

you do not have the right to go everywhere and do everything without being offended by something, as what's considered "offensive" is relative, and it would therefore be impossible to meet up to everyone's standards. But you DO have the right to go everywhere and do everything without being personally insulted.

Again, I won't actualy argue this statement since it's a pretty good one to make. However, I was more dealing with censorship as a way of stopping young ones from finding really... inapropriate things. Let's face it, OWI make games and this is a fan-forum. One must assume kids will be likely to read this. I believe profanity shouldn't be used... at all, really. But even treating this as other media, you need to crub your text to acceptable levels. (There is a word filter, after all... even if it is surprisingly easy to subvert.)

[AquaticAmbi]

WRONG! You cannot come all out and say "this is the best". That's why Carlsburg use the phrase "probably the best". You cannot lie in advertising without breaking laws. Unles you can systematicaly prove it's the best, you can't say it's the best.

In America you can say stuff like that. Mmyep.

[Dino]

WRONG! You cannot come all out and say "this is the best". That's why Carlsburg use the phrase "probably the best". You cannot lie in advertising without breaking laws. Unles you can systematicaly prove it's the best, you can't say it's the best.

Incorrect. You CAN legally claim that your product is the best on the market, as many have. If another producer disagrees, they can take them to court over it, and if the court finds that their product isn't any better, then they will no longer be able to make such a claim.

And lose the attitude.

I may not have studied law but I have studied business, so I know that I'm right on that front. As for opinion being legal exemption... well, I was only using common sence, but I'd be appauled if just three words (IMO) exempt you from defemation of character.

Yep, they do. If I said that your company is a load of shit in my opinion, then so damn what? It's just the opinion of one stupid person. However if I said that your company is ACTUALLY a load of shit, and warned people against buying it, it would be a boycott. That basically amounts to defamation of character translated to the world of business.

...I'll give you that one. Opinions need to be stated as opinions. As long as people recognise they're ONLY opinions, there's no problem.

Yes, I think you're finally getting it.

Again, I won't actualy argue this statement since it's a pretty good one to make. However, I was more dealing with censorship as a way of stopping young ones from finding really... inapropriate things. Let's face it, OWI make games and this is a fan-forum. One must assume kids will be likely to read this. I believe profanity shouldn't be used... at all, really. But even treating this as other media, you need to crub your text to acceptable levels. (There is a word filter, after all... even if it is surprisingly easy to subvert.)

The value of censorship in the presence of children is heavily debated. In my opinion it is an unnecessary measure, as it is inevitable that a child with access to the internet has either already discovered the majority of the curse words in the English language, or through use of the internet is about to.

[Joshy]

Dino shut up, you're a fuc ken idiot. You're not smart, infact your a fuc ken hypocrite.

[Cyber-Slig]

Opinion = PERSONAL View

[used:)]

Dino shut up, your a fuc ken idiot. Your not smart, infact your a fuc ken hypocrite.

He's smarter than you, dipshit. I for one agree with Dino in his post about opinions and such, even though I still dislike him.

[Alcar]

Honestly peoples.

Closed.

Alcar...