The Fuck?

[HOMINIX]

Really, I was surprised that some people were using "cartoony" to describe New n Tasty, and even were comparing its cartoony-ness with Munch's Oddysee. The only thing in New n Tasty that really differed from the Oddysee formula was that the environments' lighting and coloring were generally more hopeful feeling. Maybe the lightened mood made the goofiness of a lot of the scenes a little too goofy for some, but the Munch's comparison never crossed my mind.

The Glukkons' xylophone toes are perfect and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise

Exactly! Really the only problem I had with cartoony-ness in Oddworld were with how some things looked in Munch's Oddysee. The sound design has always been goofy like that, but the grittiness and dark atmosphere counterbalanced that perfectly in Abe's games. Munch's just tipped the scales a bit toward the cartoony side.

Yeah, nitpicking N'n'T's goofy tone vs dark tone balance - Oddworld's always been a bit goofy 'cause that's what it is, but perhaps some of us feel N'n'T leans too much on being that, for example... Abe falling over at the end of the Shrykull scene

I don't know, man, I think the end of that scene screamed "Oddworld". The second that Abe thinks he's cool, he gets knocked down a peg by the universe. It was perfect IMO.

Somehow I think those dream-like colors is what makes NnT so goddamn beautiful. There is not a single moment in the game that is not beautiful, well at least I did not encounter any during my play trough. Everything looks alive and it just pops!

That's how I feel. If the game tried to completely recreate the lighting and colors of the original, we wouldn't get screens like this

They were incongruously soft and fluffy in a (colourful or not) grim, angry game; especially for something that represents a kind of animalistic rebellion.

I don't know, I think it's good that they look that way. They're a ray of hope in an otherwise hopeless existence for the Mudokon slaves.

[Holy Sock]

Well I'm glad Lorne is happy. Because that's all that matters.

I know this is a wee bit tongue-in-cheek but surely that's how it should always be Connell? Although creatives always know where they could have improved on a project the leads of any game should always be happy with the final product. They should make something they're proud of and hope people react positively.

And with NnT it seems 80% of that is positive. 10% are bugs/not liking the game and the other 10 are fans splitting hairs like we constantly do on OWF.

I'm also a statistician so don't question the analysis.

[OANST]

I will say that while what a lot of people on this forum do can be very fairly called splitting hairs, the breaking of immersion is not a hair. That's a pretty big problem for a game that attempts to create a living, breathing world.

[Holy Sock]

But is increasing the audibility of a burping sound effect in the bad ending, which Lorne or JAW or whoever probably didn't know that we had no idea what sound that was, really a huge example of JAW breaking the immersion of the series? Or that JAW may not taking Oddworld down a path that will somewhat betray the tone of the series like many felt MO did?

I mean for something like rerecording a clearer burp sound file, or Abe sticking his finger in hismouth a little comically after discovering Mudokon Pops, JAW have also been the guys who removed those annoying sound effects from Munch, and replaced the most blatantly cartoonish moment in AO with a relatively darker counterpart (Abe hitting his head on the conveyor belt like a Loony Tunes character to being caught between a Scrab and another Scrab).

[HOMINIX]

JAW... replaced the most blatantly cartoonish moment in AO with a relatively darker counterpart (Abe hitting his head on the conveyor belt like a Loony Tunes character to being caught between a Scrab and another Scrab).

I do like the new cut scene as it really does give you a little insight into how the stock yards actually operates, but the old one wasn't really that cartoony either.

Sure, the initial BONK on the head may have been silly, but I think that adds to the chilling feeling you get as his barrel passes the two Slig guards. If he hadn't hit his head on that pipe, he would've been dead for sure, and that's the thing that actually stuck for me in that particular cutscene.

[Holy Sock]

It was the pose Abe struck which I was referring to, really.

EDIT: And really, all we're really talking about, in this thread, are small moments in the midst of the darker story. Surely the burping noise in the bad ending, then, is similar to Abe's comically convenient head bang.

[HOMINIX]

I see. I can understand the complaints, I suppose. The only one I remotely have an issue with is his overly-comical reaction to Mudokon Pops. I feel they nailed his reaction perfectly in AO. Abe's reaction is kind of haunting rather than comical.

The only reason that one is even an issue with me, is that I feel that is really the first reveal of just how dark this universe is. It's a very important moment to get right, in the interest of setting the tone for the rest of the story.

[OANST]

I'm thinking that this, combined with the in-game adverts, is the problem. A burping sound alone is just kind of silly. When put on top of something that is completely 4th wall breaking it becomes fuel for the fire.

[Holy Sock]

Well I don't know about the in game ads. I mean I find secret areas 4th wall breaking anyway so having things that break the fourth wall in secret areas don't break immersion for me personally. Since entering secret areas is essentially diverting from the flow and thrust of the game's story to do extra puzzles. I mean it wouldn't be different to me if, in one of the secret areas, we saw graffiti of all the members of JAW or something like that.

So I suppose I can't really empathise there.

The impression I get is that people are very much used to the comedy in specific moments. So adding a bit of comedy in other places can stand out negatively. The more stylised and brighter look of the game may also make it harder to accept.

[scorptatious]

So, speaking of fourth wall breaking, what are people's general thoughts on stuff like the LED screens made by Rupture Farms telling you how to rescue mudokons or the big sign that warns you that "If you escape, all 28 workers on this level die"?

[Holy Sock]

Well I guess you could explain away the latter as a poorly designed incentive to not escape. Probably because they were too lazy to block up the escape route and created a big sign instead.

Not to argue against the guy essentially supporting the same side of the argument...

[JennyGenesis]

So, speaking of fourth wall breaking, what are people's general thoughts on stuff like the LED screens made by Rupture Farms telling you how to rescue mudokons or the big sign that warns you that "If you escape, all 28 workers on this level die"?

Would a pop up menu be better for you?

Seriously, stop looking to pick holes.

[scorptatious]

Would a pop up menu be better for you?

Seriously, stop looking to pick holes.

Believe me, I'm annoyed at the hole picking too. And I actually don't mind the stuff I mentioned. It gives the games a quirky edge.

I'm just confused as to what exactly people wanted out of NNT or hell, Oddworld in general. I see people talk about how much more dark, gritty, and immersive Oddysee was compared to the other games in the series, and how later games are too silly, when in reality, the original had a bunch of goofy and quirky moments as well.

[Holy Sock]

Aye, Jenny, his comment wasn't picking holes but criticising the breaking of the fourth wall.

[JennyGenesis]

As for the sign about the workers being killed, I think that was just a warning to any mudokons who might think about escaping, guilt tripping them into thinking that lots of lives would be lost just so one could be free.

[MeechMunchie]

Seriously, stop looking to pick holes.

Jenny, I just had a 20-paragraph argument with someone because they were blowing an issue out of proportion, and even I think you're being a cunt.

Sure, the initial BONK on the head may have been silly, but I think that adds to the chilling feeling you get as his barrel passes the two Slig guards. If he hadn't hit his head on that pipe, he would've been dead for sure, and that's the thing that actually stuck for me in that particular cutscene.

There's also the fact that he's, y'know, immersed in warm chunks of unidentified carcass.

I do prefer the old cutscene, solely because that one animated the transition from the side-facing camera. The new one just starts with Abe in a vent, with no mention of how he got there.

[OANST]

Well I don't know about the in game ads. I mean I find secret areas 4th wall breaking anyway

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What?

How the fuck are secret areas breaking the fourth wall? Are you under the impression that the fourth wall is a literal wall that Abe had to break through in order to get in?

[Varrok]

No no. He means that his method of finding secret areas is breaking the walls that cover them

[OANST]

Oh, that totally makes sense now. Phew.

[MeechMunchie]

He means that displaying areas with massive yellow smiley faces and a celebratory fanfare could be construed as drawing your attention to the artificial nature of the game.

[HOMINIX]

He means the Mudokon faces etc in the backgrounds of secret areas, but I totally disagree about that being that "4th wall breaking". It doesn't break immersion at all...

Also, it's important to note 4th wall breaks aren't necessarily immersion breaks. The tutorial signs completely break the 4th wall, but they're necessary

E: Meech beat me to it

[OANST]

Pretty sure the idea is that it's graffiti from workers that wanted to point out good hiding spots.

If you can explain it, or still be capable of suspending disbelief then it doesn't break the fourth wall.

[Varrok]

I think the grinder was an actual person

[HOMINIX]

Pretty sure the idea is that it's graffiti from workers that wanted to point out good hiding spots.

I guess the argument is that the Muds wouldn't have had a chance to paint them under the watch of Sligs, or would have had to wash/paint over them once they were noticed by the guards. I still wouldn't really consider that breaking immersion.

I think the grinder was an actual person

Actually, the resident Rupture Farms taste-tester's office is right below that meat grinder, so he was just enjoying a sneak peak at future Mudokon products.

[JennyGenesis]

He did his taste test on raw meat?

Bet his digestive system loved that.

[Holy Sock]

He means that displaying areas with massive yellow smiley faces and a celebratory fanfare could be construed as drawing your attention to the artificial nature of the game.

That's part of it. Those certainly draw more attention player to it in Oddworld specifically.

But also, OANST, we're talking about immersion. I disagree with Hominix in that it doesn't break immersion but maybe we're looking at immersion in gaming differently? I'm gonna elaborate on this more than I should - just so you understand where I'm coming from. So sorry if this comes across as pretentious.

For me, specifically in games like Oddworld, you're immersed in the story, the game's designed trajectory or whatever. So when you enter a secret area, which more often than not in games contain 4th wall breaking easter eggs, you're essentially taken out of that flow or what I'd consider my immersion in the game's story.

I mean all the secret areas are designed for are players looking to get a score of 299 saved Mudokons. I mean surely, at the very beginning of the game, Abe's escaped the Boardroom, the alarms are ringing, and there's a designed natural progression for the rest of the level. So suddenly opening up a secret hatch and being confronted with a ridiculously convoluted puzzle, with all these Mudokons to save before the game introducing you to this feature and the puzzle being disparate with the rest of the level's design is taking you out of the game. Breaking immersion.

Usually secret areas are designed for players to find on second or third playthroughs - when they've already been immersed in the game and finished it. Secret areas are essentially bonus areas. I mean either they contain easter eggs or are involved in tasks like "collect 100 orbs" or "shoot 200 pigeons" or something which are a lot less concerned with immersion than finishing the story.

So yeah, essentially secret areas are taking me out of the main story going "hey look! You found a secret area! Look at all the secret area stuff" therefore I have no problem with easter eggs in them that break the 4th wall. Or brief ads of other indie games - and other games made by JAW.

EDIT: said "or whatever" too much.

I do prefer the old cutscene, solely because that one animated the transition from the side-facing camera. The new one just starts with Abe in a vent, with no mention of how he got there.

I'm pretty sure it's the vent that Abe rolls into.

[HOMINIX]

I think it really is a case of us thinking of immersion differently, so I'll give a couple examples of fourth wall breaks and immersion breaks as I understand them.

The signs in the very beginning, such as the "square button" sign on by the first elevator, are examples of immersion breakers (things that are inconsistent with the in-game environments). They are also fourth wall breaking (things directed at the player rather than the main character) in that they are instructing the player, not Abe. Abe isn't going to press "square", he's going to reach out and press the button on the elevator.

These two things don't always go hand in hand. There can be fourth wall breakers that do not break immersion, (in my opinion) such as the spirit flies telling you to "save lost souls". These messages could just as easily be directed at Abe himself, and not just the player.

As for the secret areas specifically, yes there are fourth wall breaking elements such as the fanfare that plays when you discover it, but these aren't immersion breaking. It isn't beyond the imagination that the graffiti could exist in the depths of a real Rupture Farms. The same can't be said for the "press square to ______" signs. A mudokon wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about if you told him to "press square" without also telling him what a Playstation is, and that he's part of a videogame.

I don't really understand why you think breaking the pace of the intended path/story counts as an immersion break. It's kind of hard to believe that there aren't other places within the depths of the biggest meat processing plant on the planet (or the vast wilderness that the Mudomo/Mudanchee called home) that you couldn't access from the main paths. That really isn't a break in immersion in my opinion. It's a break in pacing.

[Holy Sock]

Right, maybe I should have said "I think secret areas break immersion anyway" rather than the "4th wall". So I can see why OANST reacted like that. I mean I can argue that breaking the flow of the story to give players hard puzzles is directly speaking to the player or blah blah but I suppose that would get too ridiculously conceptual. So apologies for confusing the issue further there with that flub.

So with that in mind, Hominix, immersion is being deeply involved in the game. So taking a break from the flow of the game to do a secret puzzle can break immersion. Because now the player can be very aware that they're doing a secret puzzle rather than being involved in the story. Immersion is not exclusive to a break of the 4th wall. I do entirely believe that an interruption in pacing can break immersion. But obviously what breaks immersion for one player is going to be different for another. Being able to explain the canonical logic of secret areas doesn't mean they can't break immersion with their existence.

Also, yes, you can break the 4th wall and not break immersion. I mean in both AO & AE Abe directly addresses the player but they never took me out of the game.

But when I'm in a secret area I'm immersed in the game in a different way. In Oddworld's case it's the task to save all the Mudokons. But since it's a secret area I'm totally fine with fourth wall breaking extras since most secret areas in games have these. And when I'm in them I'm not really immersed in the canon or internal logic of the game. But more in the artificial task of seeing/accomplishing whatever the secret areas are designed for.

[HOMINIX]

Ok, that's definitely fair. I thought you meant that the examples wouldn't exist in the game universe, which is what broke your immersion in the game, rather than your immersion in the story itself. In that case, I completely agree with you. Abe ought to be running for his life in the beginning of the game rather than looking around for secret passages.

[Slog Bait]

I see. I can understand the complaints, I suppose. The only one I remotely have an issue with is his overly-comical reaction to Mudokon Pops. I feel they nailed his reaction perfectly in AO. Abe's reaction is kind of haunting rather than comical.

The thing that got me most about AO's reveal of NNT is the fact that Abe was smiling before it's reveal because he was just so excited to find out what it was.