A Civil discussion about Religion

[Strike Witch]

I think it's probably impossible to excise the idea that we all have something out there watching our back from the collective conciousness of humanity, but I wish people would shut the fuck up about it.

[DarkHoodness]

OANST says some very good points - It's rare that people can discuss religion in a civil manor without feeling angry or upset, and from what I've read here while lurking, what he says is true. If you look at the past few posts for example, you have a few people admitting this, in a way.

Nobody can agree on anything because there are as many different tastes as there are people - It's like the constant debates over everything else that's different, such as colours or cars or games consoles or football teams or whatever. People love to debate, they love to argue and disagree - Opening a topic like this is asking for trouble here IMO.

But I'll bite the bullet and leave my contribution:

Reading this - And in fact, any religious discussion - Has made me glad that I was given a choice at a young age, and was brought up to believe what I wanted to rather than having anything forced upon me.

I've chosen to believe that religion is a waste of my time, that the reason why we're here and that life exists isn't that important (must there be an answer to everything?), and that scientific discoveries and theories make a lot of sense to me as an explanation of how the universe works even though there's a lot of ground that we haven't even looked at yet.

But it is amazing that we are here, we should make the best of it, be what we all can be, discover ourselves, try new experiences - We should try and make the most out of our lives and be as happy and as kind to each other as we possibly can, then die happy knowing that we enjoyed ourselves and without regrets. These are the morales that I run my life by - There doesn't need to be more of a "why" than that.

As for there being a god? We don't know and don't have a way of proving it as much as we don't have a way of disproving it either. If there is a god, it probably won't be anything like we imagine it to be. But as we all know, religion is a lot more than just that.

IMO religion was something made up as an early answer to how things worked before we understood things better, and also as a form of law to keep us all in order. We owe a lot of our culture to it, sure, but it's something that's passed it's sell-by date, and we aren't prepared to let it go. But that's fine - Religion in itself isn't a bad thing. People can believe in whatever the hell they like if it helps them sleep at night - It's what they do with it which is harmful. They use it to manipulate people who don't know better, use at as an excuse to go to war, use it as a cover to perform morally bad acts, and shove it down other people's throats - That's what I oppose, rather than religion itself.

Also for example I mean no harm with what I've just written, but I can guarantee that someone, somewhere out there would find it so offensive that they'd want to hurt me. I don't find that acceptable either.

[JennyGenesis]

Alright. It's a religious term. Not a belief. I'll concede that much.

True, but, if somebody says "What are your religious beliefs?" You not going to say "No" are you because it wouldn't sound right. I think of Atheist being like a label for a person that does not believe, in the same way that people could be labeled as Christians, Muslims, Hindu's ETC. I think atheism can be seen as a religious belief because it is a belief in nothing.

[Phylum]

True, but, if somebody says "What are your religious beliefs?" You not going to say "No" are you because it wouldn't sound right.

That's right, you'd say "I have none."

[Crashpunk]

I don't believe in any religion, I've never have.

It has never really been a part of my life. When I was young our family liked to say they were Christian but weren't really. We've never gone to chruch or been sat down and been read the bible so in my opinion we never were.

Also, It really is impossible to talk about religion without someone getting annoyed and angry, thats probally another reason why I don't beileve. Its just not worth it.

[Glitch]

why is it that religion gets people so angry when people don't agree? I'm guilty of these unwarranted feelings too, although I don't quite understand why.

[Havoc]

Oh fun, we haven't had one of these in a long long time. I'll try not to ruin it for you Gl1tch.

I grew up in a household where religion wasn't mentioned at all. To this day I don't know if my parents actually believed in god or not. I did go to a christian preschool for 10 years and that same school did everything it could to 'teach' (though I prefer the term indoctrinate, religion has no place in a preschool) the word of god as if it was 100% reality and fact.

So because of that I was forced to read a picture bible when I was 5, color pictures of the exodus and pray to god every single morning (except on weekends). And I genuinely did for a while though looking back I can't say I took it too serious even back then. There used to be this annoying railroad crossing near my house that was closed 40 minutes of every hour. I remember one morning where I prayed to god to fix that son of a bitch so me and my mom wouldn't have to wait so long all the time. So yeah, at some point I didn't take it very seriously anymore and considered the bible story as just a story. My own logic, even at age 7/8, told me that just words in a book didn't actually make the story true. Why would the bible be any different than say, Aladdin? And my teachers didn't exactly go out of their way to deliver more evidence.

So by the time I was 9 I refused to pray anymore and that got me into serious trouble. Got kicked out of class on several occasions and had to see the head of the school who asked my why I refused to pray. When I told her that I didn't believe in god, she looked at me wondering why 5 years of brainwashing had no effect on me at all.

So yeah, that's my early years story. Today my stance is simple. Organized religion, like cristianity, is a dangerous thing. Billions of people but their entire life in the hands on a being they only hope exists. They base everything they do on the words in a book and refuse to take action on anything because it's 'god's will'.

In extreme cases people even kill in the name of their god, justified or not (that's a different discussion all together). But when people start killing in the name of a being for which the only evidence is words in a book, something is wrong in the world.

If you ask me, the world would be a much better place without any kind of religion. But people will always need something to hold on to because death is a scary thing. Since the bible was written we know that the sky is not heaven and that the inside of the earth is not hell. We know what the sun and the stars are but we don't have a clue on death. And as long as we don't, people will cling on to any book that tells them they will have a good afterlife if they just behave. And that's fine, as long as it's your own choice.

Unfortunately religion is taught as fact, not as faith. Parents who tell their children about religion don't mention that there might just be a tiny chance of nothing being true. They don't mention that it's a matter of faith. It's taught to children as a fact of live, both at home and in school, and that's what pisses me off most of all. Children don't get to have a chance to decide for themselves. Their faith is decided for them and if they don't see the logic, someone will make them see it.

I simply can't understand how mere writing in a book can convince any adult that the story is true. The only reason religion still exists is because of the mass indoctrination of children. Children will believe anything, doesn't matter if logic doesn't support it. As long as there's no clear evidence against their ideas. It's the same reason kids believe in Santa or the Easter bunny. They are told from a very young age that these figures exist until at some point they see their parents hiding the presents. If only that would happen more often with indoctrinated children. A point in their life where they go 'wtf, this makes no sense at all'. I'm very thankful that I got to that point early in my life.

So yeah, the one thing I'd like to tell children in a religious environment is this: One day you're going to learn some shocking news about Santa. When that day comes, think long and hard about everything you've been told about god.

why is it that religion gets people so angry when people don't agree? I'm guilty of these unwarranted feelings too, although I don't quite understand why.

Because religion has a very firm grasp on society. Like gays not being allowed to marry and people hating gay people in general. That's a rule that comes straight out of religion and many people are opposed to that and fight it. On the other side you have the religious guys defending their believes.

It comes down to the fact that religion influences everyone's lives, even those who don't believe in it. Me and billions of people with me don't like that one bit, so we fight and snap at it until it decided to go away or leaves us alone. Until that happens there will always be clashes.

[Jordan]

I don't have a religion. For as long as I've known, my family haven't either. In the past, I did believe in God, but that was down to my primary school, which emphasised Christianity and praying to God every day. I went along with it because I thought it was right. When I got older, I stopped believing in God, just like I stopped believing in Santa and the tooth fairy. It's quite ironic that I don't believe in God because the idea of it fascinates me. The idea of Heaven and angels to me is awesome and (forgive me) magical, but I can't expand that view enough to actually believe in them. Science also fascinates me, especially space and the stars and planets. Science is more believable to me because well, it makes sense and applies to absolutely everything in the world. It's a poor reason, I know. I guess I need to think it through more. However, this view could also be seen from religious people about God and Heaven. I don't think my view will ever change, I'd like to believe I could start putting faith in a religion, some day. I'm happy enough how I am at the moment.

[Manco]

why is it that religion gets people so angry when people don't agree? I'm guilty of these unwarranted feelings too, although I don't quite understand why.

Probably because religious beliefs can make up a significant amount of a person’s attitude, moral values and lifestyle. Most religions define what a person believes is right and wrong, and provide a set of rules to live by.

Religion also serves as a sort of comfort, with people taking the idea of an afterlife/deity as comfort for the terrible things in the world, not to mention the thought of death.

That’s pretty big stuff, so having another person come along and tell you you’re wrong can shake you up big time.

[Nate]

Im not sure what you mean... Atheism is not a religion of any kind.... Atheism isnt something that fills the hearts of many people. Unless they are atheist activists...


Atheism is just..... someone living their life without the religious aspect x_x

(also responding to a few posts after that one)

On the other hand, I've got a problem with Atheists who don't regard it as a belief system. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. It may be impossible to prove that God exists, but it's equally impossible to prove that he doesn't. Claiming otherwise is arrogance.

I should clarify that statement by pointing out that I classify myself as a firm Atheist. It's going to take a long post to explain that in more detail, but it's late here and I'll leave it to tomorrow.

[MeechMunchie]

I'm an atheist, and comfortably so. There's zero solid evidence to support a God's existence, and believing in something just because it hasn't been definitively dispoven is ridiculous. That's just not how it works. If we took that approach to everything we'd all just be a bunch of rambling conspiracy nuts. We'd starve to death in a week because no-one had told us we can't eat air.

But frankly, it's just not worth the time and effort to try and smack theism out of every believers' head. If people want to hold onto their DUMB views and STOOPID practices, go ahead, and do it peacefully. However:

Never.

Never.

Never.

Allow the use of private religous views to actively try to influence or manipulate another person. I want freedom of belief. Any prophets whispering in a person's ear detracts from their ability to make their own decision. Take it too far and people start using the influence for their own ends. Take it even further, and you end up with the horror that is organised religion.

It's amazing that people get so freaked out about the modern hurricane of messages trying to brainwash their children, yet so few try to take on their local place of worship.

Someone's likely to point out that if I don't believe in trying to convert people, that means atheism won't spread either. Call it cockiness on my part, but I expect that if no-one ever pushed religion onto them, most people would come out atheist anyway. A default setting, if you will.

bullet magnet completely shook my view on the accuracy of the bible

You hear that everyone? BM is the new messiah!

[Havoc]

(also responding to a few posts after that one)

On the other hand, I've got a problem with Atheists who don't regard it as a belief system. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. It may be impossible to prove that God exists, but it's equally impossible to prove that he doesn't. Claiming otherwise is arrogance.

That depends, from a scientific point of view you only have to debunk so much before a story is considered flawed and untrue. That doesn't mean we know what is actually true, but in the past few hundred years I like to think that a large part of the bible has been confirmed to be mostly fiction by eliminating certain elements one by one. There's certainly more evidence pointing at it being fiction than at it being true.

[Nemo]

(also responding to a few posts after that one)

On the other hand, I've got a problem with Atheists who don't regard it as a belief system. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. It may be impossible to prove that God exists, but it's equally impossible to prove that he doesn't. Claiming otherwise is arrogance.

I should clarify that statement by pointing out that I classify myself as a firm Atheist. It's going to take a long post to explain that in more detail, but it's late here and I'll leave it to tomorrow.

I've actually got a couple of things to disagree with about this post, but not in a disliking way or anything.

Atheism isn't really a belief system. It's a religious belief, yes. But it's just a single statement. "I don't believe in a god." It's not really a system if it's just a single solitary thing. Which means that (going by my definition of a religion, at least,) it isn't a religion. Merely an aspect of religions, in the same way Theism is.

Secondly... Well, shit, I thought I had three disagreements. Oh well.

This is just a semantics thing, but I believe you're thinking of Antitheism. The difference being that Antitheism is the active disbelief in a god (i.e.: "God does not exist,") whereas Atheism is merely the lack of belief (i.e.: "I don't believe in a god.")

It's only a slight difference, and the two terms are practically interchange-able, but still. Just my opinion on the matter.

[Wings of Fire]

The bible isn't God.

Just throwing that one out there.

[STM]

If I don't post, how long before you guys get bored of not having anyone to argue with?

Weird, last year I probably would have still ranted across the topic about God and religion and all that good stuff, I generally don't have the energy to try any more. I suppose that's BM's and WoF's doing more than anyone else...I would like to say this though, we live in a secularly dominated society (at least in Western Europe, I can't speak for the US) in our country religion is rarely mixed with politics and rarer still, forced down peoples throats like a few people here make out, in our neighbour countries like France, public display of religion is banned, and while I think this is a good idea (no crosses, no hijabs no burkhas), it is definitely a form, however subtle, of prejudice. Why therefore, do so many atheists still vehemently, or even violently, attack people of religion, any religion, when our worship does not impact your life in any way shape or form? If you don't like a Christian or a Jew or a Sikh praying or practising their faith, stay the hell away from their places of worship. Is it not that simple?

[Manco]

Why therefore, do so many atheists still vehemently, or even violently, attack people of religion, any religion, when our worship does not impact your life in any way shape or form? If you don't like a Christian or a Jew or a Sikh praying or practising their faith, stay the hell away from their places of worship. Is it not that simple?

How often do you see atheists hanging around places of worship?

Atheists attacking religious people is relatively common online, true. However, in real life you won’t find them being nearly so vocal. Militant atheists are probably about as common as extremist theists (Westboro Baptist, anyone?).

The difference is atheism doesn’t have the same history of power as religious bodies do – bear in mind entities such as the Church had (and still have, to an extent) a lot of influence.

[OANST]

(also responding to a few posts after that one)

On the other hand, I've got a problem with Atheists who don't regard it as a belief system. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. It may be impossible to prove that God exists, but it's equally impossible to prove that he doesn't. Claiming otherwise is arrogance.

I should clarify that statement by pointing out that I classify myself as a firm Atheist. It's going to take a long post to explain that in more detail, but it's late here and I'll leave it to tomorrow.

I don't see it. It's not a belief so much as it's a non-belief. I don't believe in many things that aren't real. That doesn't mean that I have a belief system of disbelief for every single one of them. It's a negative, not a positive. To say that a person believes in the non-existence of god is saying that they spend enough time after coming to the realization that it's not real to continue caring enough about it to have a belief.....

On second thought, that does sound like most atheists.


I missed the Scrabtrap argument. Here's your answer: It's because you people won't leave us alone. Religious people try to constantly legislate their beliefs so that we all have to live under their flawed , and often rather silly sense of morality. If they weren't constantly spouting off about how their way of life is the only good one, and trying to force that way of life on us I guarantee you we would relax about it. At least, this is true in America.

[STM]

Perhaps that's just America, doesn't really happen over here. Only time we ever get any grievances with religion is when the Muslims demand the government fund the construction of Mosques, at least that's all I'm aware of, and again, that's a minority percentage.

But then, America has a bit of a backwards sort of mix between secularism and religion.

[Glitch]

If I don't post, how long before you guys get bored of not having anyone to argue with?

Weird, last year I probably would have still ranted across the topic about God and religion and all that good stuff, I generally don't have the energy to try any more. I suppose that's BM's and WoF's doing more than anyone else...I would like to say this though, we live in a secularly dominated society (at least in Western Europe, I can't speak for the US) in our country religion is rarely mixed with politics and rarer still, forced down peoples throats like a few people here make out, in our neighbour countries like France, public display of religion is banned, and while I think this is a good idea (no crosses, no hijabs no burkhas), it is definitely a form, however subtle, of prejudice. Why therefore, do so many atheists still vehemently, or even violently, attack people of religion, any religion, when our worship does not impact your life in any way shape or form? If you don't like a Christian or a Jew or a Sikh praying or practising their faith, stay the hell away from their places of worship. Is it not that simple?

A lot of people would question whether the physical attacks on religious individuals from atheists is more common than attacks on atheists from religious individuals, or even attacks of religious individuals on other religious individuals. I can't say that I have numbers for that, but I suggest that knowing them would make everything clearer and allow for a more cogent argument.

Religion has found a comfortable place in the UK. It's traditions are part of British culture, and I genuinely feel that, to a certain degree, Britain would be a worse place without those traditions. That said, as soon as religion begins to have ideas about changing school curricular or imposing rules on others who do not follow their belief system, any fondness for the pomp that religion exudes is lost.

In the UK this is certainly not the case (except for perhaps a couple of very private schools in Scotland). However, in America, religion has a frighteningly strong grasp of government. There is talk that the major school textbook providers will need to change the sections involving evolution purely because one of the most wealthiest states (Texas) won't buy them if they don't.

My interest is in the individuals who support this movement; is it simply because they believe it so fervently that they will do anything to facilitate its continued existence even to the possible detriment of their country?


In regards to the "Atheism is a belief" mini-argument: I would suggest that the word belief implies faith, and Atheism isn't based of faith or even a lack of it. Atheism is based of the garnering of evidence and the willingness to interpret such evidence to the full extent possible, even if such an extent leads to places you would rather not go.

[Havoc]

The bible isn't God.

Just throwing that one out there.

The idea of a god is brought forth by religious books like the bible. It's rather backwards to say you believe in god but not the bible. So yeah, bible = god and vice versa.

[Dixanadu]

I'm an atheist, but I think everyone can believe in what they wish to.

As long as they don't force it upon others, such as children, then everything's dandy. People should be free to choose their own path in life.

I also dislike people who bash those who publicly preach. It's comparable to say, someone starting a flamewar on YouTube about a video, when all they have to do is ignore it.

Don't like, don't listen.

[MeechMunchie]

The idea of a god is brought forth by religious books like the bible. It's rather backwards to say you believe in god but not the bible. So yeah, bible = god and vice versa.

I expect people believed in God before the Bible was written, otherwise they wouldn't have written it in the first place.

[T-nex]

(also responding to a few posts after that one)

On the other hand, I've got a problem with Atheists who don't regard it as a belief system. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. It may be impossible to prove that God exists, but it's equally impossible to prove that he doesn't. Claiming otherwise is arrogance.

I should clarify that statement by pointing out that I classify myself as a firm Atheist. It's going to take a long post to explain that in more detail, but it's late here and I'll leave it to tomorrow.

What Oanst said...

Also


I wish I could express my thoughts in a way that people would understand. But here I'll try.

I'm not atheist because I defined myself as such, but because it would be a term applied to me by others. Because its a common term accepted to mean that you don't believe in god.

But I don't not believe in god to cross religion. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion just isn't part of my heart and mind. When I make decisions, religion plays no part of it, and I am not an atheist because I chose to not believe in religion x_x Jesus... I just have no way of explaining this. Like I'm not like: Haha I choose not to believe in god, therefor I'm an atheist.

But saying that atheism is a religious belief just kinda offends me, because I have no interest in religion in terms of beliefs x__x Its non-existant in that regard.

I do enjoy reading about certain religions though. But it's more of a curious standpoint.

You could turn it around and say that religion is an atheistic belief because they choose to believe in god rather than not.... I dunno.

I'm probly not making any sense to any of you.

[MeechMunchie]

I'm probly not making any sense to any of you.

I read it as:

"As an atheist, I am supposed to be distanced from religious affairs. I don't appreciate it when people label me as part of an argument I have decided is irrelevant.

I am an atheist because it seems obvious and natural, and have needed no further persuasion to fix my views; Wheras religious people must make a concious decision to protect their beliefs almost every day."

Which seems like a very sensible stance to me.

[T-nex]

I read it as:

"As an atheist, I am supposed to be distanced from religious affairs. I don't appreciate it when people label me as part of an argument I have decided is irrelevant.

I am an atheist because it seems obvious and natural, and have needed no further persuasion to fix my views; Wheras religious people must make a concious decision to protect their beliefs almost every day."

Which seems like a very sensible stance to me.

I ... I think it's something like that xD

I really wish I could organize my thought

[Wings of Fire]

It's rather backwards to say you believe in god but not the bible. So yeah, bible = god and vice versa.

Why are we restricting ourselves to Christianity here? The Theistic argument is doomed to fail on every single front if it tries to argue for a Judao-Christian God. Unless they think he's insane.

It's far better to try to argue for a metaphysical being that has the attributes of Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnibenevolence before even attempting to flavour Him with ritual.

[Havoc]

I expect people believed in God before the Bible was written, otherwise they wouldn't have written it in the first place.

I guess that's a chicken and egg situation. I've always assumed that the bible is a mostly a work of fiction, perhaps with many stories of travelers in it, and that it started to take a life of its own when people started to actually believe it. Like those Star Wars nerds who believe The Force is real.

But yeah, I suppose you could turn it around and say it was written as a tribute to god. That's something we'll probably never know.

[MeechMunchie]

Most really old books are just standardised oral folklore. I assumed this was the case, with the Old Testament at least.

[STM]

A lot of the Old Testament is prophecy for the New Testament, and a lot of the New Testament is actually historically accurate, for example we know with relative certainty that Paul did exist and did write to countries across the Mediterranean/ Arabic Seas. There is less proof that Jesus exists but there is still proof, and proof of people existing that knew him furthers the argument. So with this established, you can begin to pick at all the miracles he worked and the sort.

[OANST]

A lot of the Old Testament is prophecy for the New Testament, and a lot of the New Testament is actually historically accurate, for example we know with relative certainty that Paul did exist and did write to countries across the Mediterranean/ Arabic Seas. There is less proof that Jesus exists but there is still proof, and proof of people existing that knew him furthers the argument. So with this established, you can begin to pick at all the miracles he worked and the sort.

There is no proof of Jesus' existence. None. I've said this before, but even lacking proof there probably was a person named Jesus. There just isn't any proof.

All of the gospels (except Paul, and he never met Jesus) were written at least one generation after the events they were talking about, and were not written by the people who were said to have written them. The Romans had no documents of his execution, and there are no eye witness accounts.