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  #31  
11-24-2016, 08:40 AM
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Fair enough, was just wondering.

The reason I'm done with this thread is because I haven't seen a single solitary point from Sybil Ant that isn't generic feminist shit I've heard before, and the posts are kind of giving me a headache. I'll let Varrok respond to it.
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  #32  
11-24-2016, 09:09 AM
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I don't need to (although I will after work), that video is supported by information from the AEI; a pro-corporatist, conservative think tank that has objective motives to dismiss the wage gap. They've been caught up in numerous scandals, including trying to bribe scientists to state that global warming is a myth. Oh and they also promoted Charles Murray's anti-regulation crusade to try and dismantle laws aimed to protect labour and the environment.
I don't think any of the data presented in the video is falsified, regardless of motives of the people behind it.

:
ok fuck it watched it. The first 90 seconds is just posturing. The statistic she talks about regarding the wage gap is stupid. Yes the wage gap is a mean collective representation across many industries, but she speaks as though if you dug further you wouldn't find a million microcosms that lead to the same outcome. The rest of the video is just "oh but women don't go for higher paying jobs." And it's funny that the narrator (who laughably is the token anti-feminist woman) doesn't delve any deeper as to why women don't 'go for higher paying jobs'. Beyond that it's just willful ignorance and trite arguments.

A little something we callthe glass ceiling.
If the issue *isn't* women earning less for the same work than men, but rather women not taking higher-paying jobs, then it should not be considered a gender wage gap.

I do not live in the UK, but I can say with complete certainty that in Poland, which is, frankly speaking, considered a less developed country than UK or USA, women *can* take higher-end jobs, and they do. Coming from my first-hand experience: There are plenty of women in the company I'm currently working for, on both the lower- and higher-paying positions, and that company doesn't have diversification as a goal (a.k.a. they don't really give a damn).

UK and USA, however, do have strong activist groups that have gone out of their way to push in their diverse agenda to the point that some companies are forced to hire women just for the sake of diversity. They also have laws against sexism at work, to prevent the companies, to, example given, from paying women less than men. In my mind, that makes it ridiculous to think somehow women got it worse there than here.

Last edited by Varrok; 11-24-2016 at 09:16 AM..
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  #33  
11-24-2016, 09:53 AM
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This redundancy has been seized to validate the trans ideology of "Actually I am a real woman because biological sex is irrelevant, womanhood is all about your gender." in complete disregard to popular and historical usage and without anyone ever actually bothering to explain what gender is.
The disregard for popular and historical usage is basically a means to try to break away from that popular and historical usage, as the current models of gender differ from them in significant ways. After all, if you’re of the mindset that the historic usage is outdated and incorrect, why continue to use it?

People do try to explain what gender is, but it’s not so easy to define when we disentangle it from sex, and especially when the existing idea of it is so well-entrenched in society and so thoroughly entangled in human identity.


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The narrative used to be "I have a woman's brain trapped in a mans body" but it turns out the idea of a "woman's brain" has some ridiculously sexist implications. So now what they go with is the paradoxical "a woman is someone who identifies as a woman", no further questions asked.
There is so much tied up in gender identity that if we start to unpack it all and try to categorize everyone neatly, it would be impossible to keep track of.

Large parts of society associate physical attributes (sexual characteristics, body shape, body hair etc) with gender. Then there’s physical presentation (voice, body language, mannerisms, clothing, hair color, makeup etc), hobbies and tastes, career and skills, personality, and many other invisible things we consider when addressing another person – many of which can vary by culture. And let’s not forget chromosomes, which are not as black-and-white as often thought; and yes, even brain structure.

So how do we categorize gender? Genetics aren’t a certain identifier, brain activity isn’t a certain identifier, neither are personality, presentation of appearance, body shape, or sexual organs (as you’ve already pointed out, there’s a separation of sex and gender).

In practice, man and woman, male and female are pretty blurred categories, and there should be room for people to identify freely as one or the other or something else.

So rather than try to formalize gender categories from a huge quantity of nebulous and unreliable personal attributes, does it not make more sense to listen to how someone asks you to identify them?


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Oh and despite the assertion that womanhood has nothing to do with biology, the universal route for a transwoman is to undergo HRT for some reason. Anyone who complains about doctors assigning sex at birth and then alters their body to look somewhat like the sex they magically identify with is a hypocrite.
What you’re describing isn’t quite true, though – not every trans person seeks hormones, or to modify their body. Most do, but not all. And I think it’s understandable that someone who wants to be recognized as female would choose to undergo treatments that would make that happen.

I don’t see the hypocrisy you assert here. Let’s consider these two issues: the criticism of assigning sex at birth, and undertaking changes to the body to be perceived as the correct gender.

Critics of assigning sex at birth argue that doing so is a conflation of sex and gender – once a baby’s sex is known, its gender is also presumed from that point on. This perpetuates the current attitude of conflating sex with gender, and sets up the situation where someone who feels their gender doesn’t match the way society perceives and categorizes them might feel they have the ‘wrong’ body.

Some people who work to alter their body to match their perceived gender do so out of a need for their body to match what society tells them it should, and others feel the need to do this because of a biological mismatch of brain and body. Either way, this mismatch of sex and gender will massively contribute to dysphoria for a lot of trans people.

Gender is one of the social constructs that people use to identify one another. It is built up from many different attributes of a person and society’s views of those attributes, and one significant attribute that society judges is the body. Even if we accept that sex and gender are different, we can also recognize that society still strongly associates the two; so someone wishing to make a change to better fit how society identifies them and relieve their own dysphoria is not a hypocrite.


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So with these layers of contradictions its only natural that sometimes someone like MA falls afoul of the cognitive-dissonoance-supressing party line. The usual response when someone, out of ignorance, says something unorthodox on trans issues is to imply that they're some sort of awful bigot. Recently their was some drama in The States concerning transwomen's right to use women's facilities such as change rooms and toilets. Apparently it's some sort of hate crime to think that women's opinions on the matter should be considered, after all these facilities are segregated on the basis of sex (not magical brain identity) to give women safety from physical and sexual violence.

EDIT
I don't want to give the wrong impression here. I acknowledge gender dysphoria as a serious mental health issue and acknowledge the psychiatric consensus that the best way to alleviate such is to let the sufferer present as a woman. I of course used preferred pronouns out of common courtesy. Within reasonable limits I think transwomen should be treated like like an otherwise real women. What I lament is the the ideology being pushed by some.
So, this is the part where I try to respectfully point out some of the latent bigotry in what you’ve written here without trying to make it sound like an attack on you.

A lot of the language you’re using here (e.g. “magical brain identity”, “let the sufferer present as a woman”, “otherwise real women”) strongly implies that you have a problem with trans people. For example, “otherwise real women” implies that you perceive a trans woman as fake; a man pretending to be a woman. That’s a misunderstanding of what a trans person is striving for – they’re not trying to fake, they are trying to be. For someone who does not consider themselves to be a man and does not wish to be perceived as a man, the implication that they’re fake is little better than explicitly denying their gender identity.

This may not at all be what you meant, but this is how it can come across – and this is why people will often leap to correct problematic language, even if that comes across as annoying or pedantic.

All that being said, I do take on board your point about condescension – I think a big pitfall of progressive movements is the assumption of knowledgeability in who they talk to, and an assumption of bigotry if someone doesn’t immediately agree on presenting ideas to them. I try to avoid that, and I hope you don’t feel that’s how I’ve come across in this post.


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I'm not implying that. I'm not even saying they should be barred. I just found it disturbing that from the onset women's opinions on the matter were completely disregarded.
To my knowledge, opinions on the matter were never assessed based on gender. There was a big stink about the laws “protecting women” by stopping “men entering women’s bathrooms”, but that narrative was pushed by men and women.


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Fucking. This.

People like Anita Sarkeesian need that statement printed on their fucking head. Going after how females are represented in video games; The smallest non-issue in the first world and making out it's the biggest crisis facing woman everywhere. All the while, Ignoring actual problems woman face in other countries that DO actually need help.
To my knowledge, people like Anita Sarkeesian don’t present their chosen issue as the biggest crisis – it’s an important issue to them, but not necessarily to everyone. There shouldn’t be anything wrong with choosing to focus on one issue over another.

The other problem, as Sybil has already pointed out, is that feminists don’t have a lot of influence on problems in other countries. Consider how well recent Western interventions in the Middle East have gone – if Westerners simply tried to impose gender equality on those countries, how well do you think it would work?
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  #34  
11-24-2016, 10:57 AM
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Fair enough, was just wondering.

The reason I'm done with this thread is because I haven't seen a single solitary point from Sybil Ant that isn't generic feminist shit I've heard before, and the posts are kind of giving me a headache. I'll let Varrok respond to it.
"I don't have any proper responses to the topic, so I'm not gonna try to formulate any."
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  #35  
11-24-2016, 11:14 AM
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I don't need to (although I will after work), that video is supported by information from the AEI; a pro-corporatist, conservative think tank that has objective motives to dismiss the wage gap.
...
If you provide a credible source of statistical evidence against the pay-gap, I'll be inclined to take it more seriously.
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"I don't have any proper responses to the topic, so I'm not gonna try to formulate any."
Forming a mental blacklist of "this is stupid" for anything you don't agree with, and thinking anyone who doesn't agree with you "is part of the problem" (by the way, I didn't quite like that) is a dangerous mentality to have.

No, I'm not simply calling you out. It affects the best of us (it's why we all prefer some sources over others). But this attitude is exactly what is causing a decline in liberalism. Slog Bait said it best:

:
Stop with this. If you want to get someone on your side, you don't point an accusatory finger at them and call them the problem. That's how things got to where they are today. That's how you lose support. That's how people start viewing the movements you follow as violent exclusive cults. No one likes being accused of wrong doing if they don't understand why something they said or did could be construed as wrong.
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  #36  
11-24-2016, 11:42 AM
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"I don't have any proper responses to the topic, so I'm not gonna try to formulate any."
You honestly think that?
What really happened is I began writing a fucking essay on why the wage gap is bullshit and decided to throw in the towel on this entire thread when I accidentally pressed back on my phone and lost it all.

I mean, sure, think what you want. It's too tiring at this point. I could go the route that takes way less effort and just post some videos explaining why you're wrong but no doubt you'll just use them for character assassination so I'm not going to bother.
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  #37  
11-24-2016, 01:28 PM
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Forming a mental blacklist of "this is stupid" for anything you don't agree with, and thinking anyone who doesn't agree with you "is part of the problem" (by the way, I didn't quite like that) is a dangerous mentality to have.

No, I'm not simply calling you out. It affects the best of us (it's why we all prefer some sources over others). But this attitude is exactly what is causing a decline in liberalism. Slog Bait said it best:
But, it is a stupid video. Not Varrok, the video. It's quantifiably wrong.
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  #38  
11-26-2016, 03:28 AM
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I typically try to stay out of this kind of debate, because I feel like all the problems that people bring up, while they do concern me, are difficult for me to have a meaningful opinion about. But I'll say a few words, if only just for the sake of speaking my mind.

When it comes to gender identity, I've met three people who would, as I understand it, felt they had a different gender than their sex and actively pursued ways to change that: (two of them were on hormones, the last one insisted being called Sandra rather than his given name.) I never questioned their beliefs or why they wanted to do. The main reason I didn't was because their reasons were obviously very personal and even if I could understand them, it would not be something I could relate well to. And besides, apart from having to remember to say Sandra, they didn't cause me any grief, so why start any trouble over it?

Myself, I don't think a lot about my gender or my sex. Mostly because I find it difficult to understand the want to identify at all. So when someone tells me they identify one way or the other, my usual response will be along the lines of "That's nice" and move on. I've had it previously misconstrued as disagreeing, but it's more that I just don't know what to make of it and try to carry on with life as it was before.

I will say this though, if someone looks like a man, but wants to be addressed as a woman, or vice versa or some other permutation of that which requires a different pronoun than what I immediately judge appropriate, I hope they don't get upset if I get it wrong every once in a while, because I probably will. Not out of hate, but out of a mix of forgetfulness and force of habit.

So that's all I have to say about gender. Now the next topic, feminism.

It's difficult to talk about feminism for the same reasons it's difficult to talk about Christianity; it's very much about the person more than it is the group.

My experience with feminism is limited to a few people and the internet, where, more often than not, the word feminist means a person who hates men, uses Tumblr, is obese and all those other negative connotations. I have never personally interacted with one of these. All I've seen is people who talk about them, laugh at them, explain to me how feminism isn't needed and link me videos that mock them.

Somehow, I doubt these "feminazis" are as omnipresent as they are made out to be. My experience with people I've actually met who identified as feminists or who I'd describe as feminists, is much less exciting. Very few people I've met have ever described themselves to me as a feminist, but one that I remember was a girl who I never remember hearing anything unreasonable from. The closest thing was a class discussion about a girl in an American college who made a pornographic video or something to fund her way into college and was promptly expelled for it. She, naturally, did not think this was terribly fair. "It's her decision, it's her body, she can do what she likes, it's not affecting them." was the gist of her argument. The only argument I heard against it was that if they didn't expel her, it might send the wrong impression about the college. Myself, I don't really think it's the school's business, but I was undecided and still am somewhat.

My personal experience of interacting with feminists is fairly limited, as I said. It seemed to me that she pursued feminism as Sybil describes it, so for me, I'd say that's not too far off what your average feminist wants. I would like to see a new word for this pursuit though, since I feel that might help gain some distance from the emergence of the more extreme views that are sometimes seen on the internet.

I don't identify as a feminist. I don't really know if I support the idea of equality between sexes, since that seems impossible to me, due to inherent differences. I support both having access to the same opportunities, because I don't see any significant downside to allowing it. It seems unlikely to me that both sexes are going to be just as good at all of them though, but I guess that's obvious.

I think it would be wrong to say there is no place for a feminist movement these days. I don't want to say what they should be doing, because all the issues that I think are important, I find extremely difficult to put into words that don't sound contradicting. There is, in my experience, a significant difference between how men interact with other men and how men and women interact with women and men (leaving out how women interact with women, because all I know is what I've eavesdropped on and what I've seen them do). I understand why this is and I would say that there's always going to be a difference, but I also think that it's understandable to want to change that, at least to some degree.

I'm currently hungover, so I think I'll stop for now, maybe say some more about this, or talk about nationalism.
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  #39  
11-26-2016, 06:31 PM
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I spent the last 10 minutes trying to come up with a witty comment to leave my mark on this thread. But you know. Fuck you all. The pay gap is bullshit, feminists are whining bitches, men and women are not equal, never will be and never should be. Goodbye.

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  #40  
11-27-2016, 10:30 AM
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Insightful.
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  #41  
11-27-2016, 03:38 PM
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she's answering back, Havoc! hit her with your belt!
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  #42  
11-27-2016, 03:47 PM
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hot
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  #43  
11-27-2016, 09:44 PM
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she's answering back, Havoc! hit her with your belt!
Ugh, don't, I'll cream myself.
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  #44  
11-29-2016, 05:38 AM
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on the other hand if it were you whipping Havoc with a sparkly belt, i would cream myself.

he deserves to have the shit kicked out of him, specifically by a female, so it'd be like a cross between poetic justice and soft snuff.
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  #45  
11-29-2016, 07:20 AM
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And I think that's something we can all get off on.
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  #46  
11-29-2016, 08:31 AM
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No I'd stil prefer it the other way round. With Havoc as his tiger avatar.
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  #47  
11-29-2016, 10:12 AM
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Kinky stuff
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  #48  
11-29-2016, 11:39 AM
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Great debate.
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  #49  
12-01-2016, 11:17 AM
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Sybil Ant it is useless to do something good for this world like it useless to explain how the things should work to make it better. Even if all the evilness and shit daily done by the humanity could be erased, the world would be like this again. What I'm trying to say is that trying to improve the world in all the senses and ways could last for some time but everything will sure come back like before again for sure. Even if we start from the beginning. If you really want to exterminate forever all the bad things about all us you need to exterminate something else before:
Our species. Because evil will only calm down when we die. The maleficence is part of us, and more we get smarter more it will get bigger. That's my opinion, and if you try to argue about these things there will be always the Thief laughing at you. And the entire world won't listen because it's too late now to save it with the words.
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  #50  
12-01-2016, 12:22 PM
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Phoetux can i whip you? you sound like you might enjoy it.
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  #51  
12-01-2016, 01:02 PM
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  #52  
12-01-2016, 04:44 PM
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ive literally never seen anyone more cucked out in my entire life
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Phoetux can i whip you? you sound like you might enjoy it.
No ma it has to be a woman so she can tell him what a naughty man he is
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  #53  
12-02-2016, 08:14 AM
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Wew lad lot of rogan josh spicy shitbant in this thread.

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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.

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  #54  
12-03-2016, 07:27 AM
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I wish MTV was a person, so I could invite it to the conversation. Tons of laughs guaranteed

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  #55  
12-03-2016, 07:33 PM
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:
Ugh, don't, I'll cream myself.
Hm, kinky. I think you and I will get along just fine.
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When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

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  #56  
12-04-2016, 02:15 AM
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I doubt it.
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  #57  
12-04-2016, 03:50 AM
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Well, that's what the belt is for.
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When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

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  #58  
12-04-2016, 04:19 AM
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Have you PMed her a dickpic yet, Havoc?
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all Meechmunchie did by trying to troll me was distract from the fact you all have no regard for Hetro or their rights at all, none.
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  #59  
12-04-2016, 07:23 AM
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In his case it would me a tigpic.
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  #60  
12-04-2016, 09:09 AM
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Are you implying tigers don't have dicks, Varrok?
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