So...the Future of OWF -

STM · #31 12-18-2015, 12:21 AM

I'd like to put it out there that providing you have an actual drive and interest in rejuvinating this place, I fully support pressing for you to take over ownership of this place, Nate. I don't think anyone would do a better job.

My interest in a new site is born out of necessity in the fact that Alcar is unlikely to hand over the keys, so to speak.

Daxter King · #32 12-18-2015, 12:31 AM

Forums aren't dead, this place is just a shitstain upon the internet. I know of plenty active forums, that dont have any stupid ass Facebook integration or the like.

The new forums should be called Forums ala Oddworld.

Havoc · #33 12-18-2015, 02:00 AM

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I originally quoted a shitload of posts in this thread, but most of them make the same points, so I'm just going to address the points and not the specific people who made them.

Advertising:
Where the heck do you think we should be advertising? If people were interested in discussing Oddworld, they'd have found this place.

Don't think it needs advertising percé, but it ties in with making it part of the Oddworld community as mentioned below.

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Forum themes/interface:
I don't really buy that this is enough to put anyone off joining or staying if they really did want to discuss Oddworld.
I do agree that a mobile site/app would help, though.

That said, we're more than willing to update the themes and interface. The problem is that Kristin/Cloverfield/Abe Babe doesn't have the time to lend her expertise any more. And I don't have the requisite skills. And the less said about the last attempt to build a forum theme, the better.

This ties in with modern forum software, which is much easier to code for. Vbulletin is a messy pile of junk when it comes to coding and making themes. Say that we'd migrate the forum to Xenforo, there are many many pre-made themes for sale that can be altered to fit our needs, I'd be able to help out there if you want. Building a completely custom theme from scratch is a little harder and honestly something I'd advice against unless someone is willing to put in the cash to have a professional theme designer do it. It's easier and cheaper to buy a professional theme and alter it.

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Make it a recognized part of the Oddworld fan community:
Hmmmm... I'm not sure how that'd happen. OWI kinda suck at fan relations at the moment anyway.

It's a tricky thing anyway. There was some discussion a while ago about making OWF an official OWI forum. The problem then is that if they're officially lending their name to the site, then we'd have to follow their rules for behaviour, language, various legal shit that can get a company into trouble. And given we didn't go down that route, they took two steps further away because there was a time when they were considering setting up their own forum, like Double Fine did.

Isn't Wil their current PR officer? If anything that should make it insanely easy to have relations with OWI, assuming they don't have their own forum plans, which I doubt. Having the forum conform to some rules set out by OWI isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. An official OWI endorsed Oddworld forum would be great for the fan community without any additional required man- or financial power from OWI themselves, as it would be essentially fan managed. We used to be in that position years ago when we were at the very top of OWI's fan site list. These days they understandably want very little to do with us, but it's not too late to turn that around.

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Ownership/Power:
If I became an owner, I'd have been able to solve this week's outage quicker. But with respect to the problems listed above, I don't think there's much more that I could actually do to fix the place. I'm more than happy to listen to suggestions.

I don't know if this is still some sort of sensitive subject, but I genuinely think this place can be turned around and be made great again. If you think you lack the know-how to manage this forum on your own (as in technical know-how, migrating to new software, altering themes, server management), I'd be happy to help you out in managing it. I've been kind of reluctant to mention it so far because I haven't always been the most likable/endorsed member in the past and there's been some 'political' struggles over the years I guess. But now is as good a time to mention it as any, I suppose. So if you'd like my help, consider it on offer. I have all the technical experience you might need to pull this off.

Jordan · #34 12-18-2015, 03:32 AM

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Saying that people don't stay because they're treated rudely is a very 2013 thing to say. Have you looked in W&B lately? We're not scaring anyone away because no-one is even joining

It's worth pointing out that the rude behaviour doesn't just affect newbies, but also existing members. I can't speak for everyone but the hostility is offputting for myself. It makes it a chore and an unpleasant experience joining discussions.

Daxter King · #35 12-18-2015, 03:47 AM

We'd probably be better off as starting a new general gaming forum with the current members as a foundation for it.

Manco · #36 12-18-2015, 07:19 AM

I’ll echo the calls for a more active site owner. This place has been stagnant for years and Alcar simply isn’t doing enough to help.

I think jumping ship to a new forum isn’t going to help anything. Better to build on what we already have.

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Lack of content:
This thread is meant to be about what we can actually do. Lack of content is a chicken and egg problem.

I think this is actually solvable if we put some effort into it. I mean right now we have a new thread like what, once every two months? There’s no attempt to get discussions going, other forums generate new discussions a lot faster than we do.

We’ve not really done anything as a “community” in forever either. Every so often someone throws out an idea for like a TF2 competition or something but nothing ever goes anywhere. Remember when half the forum was playing Minecraft together? That was a high point of this community for me.

There’s more we could do to interact with the wider Oddworld fandom as well, y’know? We play host to a couple of fan projects and the occasional fan art post, but I’m sure there’s more out there we could do something with somehow.

Mr. Bungle · #37 12-18-2015, 09:33 AM

We've done Minecraft. We've done TF2. I say it's time for OWF does Terraria.

Recently came out for Mac too, so all the more reason to get in on it.

Job McYossie · #38 12-18-2015, 09:43 AM

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There’s more we could do to interact with the wider Oddworld fandom as well, y’know?

There used to be an RP section.

Manco · #39 12-18-2015, 09:43 AM

D&D has been floated as an idea before too.

Mr. Bungle · #40 12-18-2015, 10:08 AM

I've come to terms with the fact that doing D&D with a bunch of you guys would be nigh-impossible. Seriously. Timezones are a bitch. I'm already involved in two campaigns anyway, doubt I could juggle three. But hey, don't let me stop you.

Terraria would be super easy to pull together. And fun. Just saying!

Jordan · #41 12-18-2015, 10:14 AM

Terraria's great. I don't have anyone to play it with anymore so that'd be a good reason to! How many people can you have in one game?

Mr. Bungle · #42 12-18-2015, 10:23 AM

I'm not sure. I've seen at least 6 or 7 people play at once, probably more than that.

Never actually played it online myself but the appeal is very, well, appealing.

MA · #43 12-18-2015, 10:46 AM

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Saying that people don't stay because they're treated rudely is a very 2013 thing to say. Have you looked in W&B lately? We're not scaring anyone away because no-one is even joining

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I do think we are nicer to newcomers, even to the point we seem really desperate. They join and leave anyway. Maybe they're being put off by all those in-jokes they don't get.

gotta agree with these points. i've been nice to newcomers and i've stopped all the in-jokes and shit, it's activity this forum craves and i think our lack of it is what's driving people away ultimately.

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I think jumping ship to a new forum isn’t going to help anything. Better to build on what we already have.

I think this is actually solvable if we put some effort into it. I mean right now we have a new thread like what, once every two months? There’s no attempt to get discussions going, other forums generate new discussions a lot faster than we do.

We’ve not really done anything as a “community” in forever either. Every so often someone throws out an idea for like a TF2 competition or something but nothing ever goes anywhere. Remember when half the forum was playing Minecraft together? That was a high point of this community for me.

There’s more we could do to interact with the wider Oddworld fandom as well, y’know? We play host to a couple of fan projects and the occasional fan art post, but I’m sure there’s more out there we could do something with somehow.

personally i believe this to be the main issue. there's no new conversation and we seem to be despirited as a community. i've been avoiding posting lately because i thought i was part of the problem, but now i realize inactivity is the last thing this forum needs.

if there is to be change i think we should build on and update what we have here rather than start all over again, but if we did start a new forum i'd be all for it. either way i'm all for our betterment, i care about this forums future.

Vexen · #44 12-18-2015, 05:53 PM

We can play Garry's mod. That's a hectic multiplayer game.

***Nate*** · #45 12-18-2015, 11:10 PM

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This ties in with modern forum software, which is much easier to code for. Vbulletin is a messy pile of junk when it comes to coding and making themes. Say that we'd migrate the forum to Xenforo, there are many many pre-made themes for sale that can be altered to fit our needs, I'd be able to help out there if you want. Building a completely custom theme from scratch is a little harder and honestly something I'd advice against unless someone is willing to put in the cash to have a professional theme designer do it. It's easier and cheaper to buy a professional theme and alter it.

Okay, that makes sense.

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Isn't Wil their current PR officer? If anything that should make it insanely easy to have relations with OWI, assuming they don't have their own forum plans, which I doubt. Having the forum conform to some rules set out by OWI isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. An official OWI endorsed Oddworld forum would be great for the fan community without any additional required man- or financial power from OWI themselves, as it would be essentially fan managed. We used to be in that position years ago when we were at the very top of OWI's fan site list. These days they understandably want very little to do with us, but it's not too late to turn that around.

I don't really know what's going on with Wil these days - I haven't spoken to him in ages. Also, bear in mind that pretty much all I said in my previous post about OWI and OWF came directly from him. He was quite enthusiastic about the idea of OWI developing its own community seperate from OWF. I'm not entirely sure that he'll be able to help us out there.

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If you think you lack the know-how to manage this forum on your own (as in technical know-how, migrating to new software, altering themes, server management), I'd be happy to help you out in managing it.

The issue was never the 'How', it was always the 'What'.

Shade667 · #46 12-19-2015, 09:53 PM

That snow on the front page laggs my PS4 browser to shit.

I also have nothing else to contribute.

OddjobAbe · #47 12-20-2015, 11:05 AM

The two reasons I'm mostly inactive are:

I'm busy. I suspect there are a number of people who were in their teens or not in university/not working when the activity of the forums peaked, and it seems like as people's lives advance, they find less time to waste on internet forums when there's little incentive to do so (although saying this, I can't think of a specific user that would illustrate my point, and I can think of a few people who contradict my point, so this may not be as significant a point as I initially suspected). Even though I don't think it's the biggest issue, I do think that making the forums more suitable for portable devices might be a possible help, as it's easier to quickly glance at a site on your phone on a train/bus or in a waiting room or whatever than it is to boot up a computer on even a laptop to view something. This may be related to my point that people move on, as travelling between uni/work/whatever may be the only time some people get to check the place considering the possible developments in their lives.

I find it mostly boring! There are enough people I like here to encourage me to check what's going on, but all forums are almost completely dead. When New n Tasty was being developed, I was interested in those discussions, but even by then, I found that basically nothing caught my eye in off-topic any more. And it's got even more boring since then. I don't even see Nepsotic making tabloid-esque controversial claims so much any more. They were boring threads to me too, but I read them just because they seemed to spark discussion more than other threads. It seems to be boring because of the lack of activity - there aren't many members posting many threads, and currently, OT consists entirely of an inactive Dr. Who thread, a general music thread, a general TV thread, "Classics" (not getting any of those any more), a thread for random bullshit and this thread, apparently the most active discussion, which is basically just despairing about the inactivity of the rest of the forums (as well as attempting to offer a solution, to be completely fair).

I'd like to be more active. I like the active membership! But there's not much, if anything, to discuss about Oddworld currently (and my interest in Abe has largely diminished, to be honest), and there is almost literally nothing whatsoever being discussed in off-topic either. A big, friendly (if slightly controversial) debate/discussion might be a good start, maybe, although I'm not sure what the topic would be.
And I also think working on the existing community might be useful. OWF as I know it has always been quite close-knit, and beyond all the ridiculous hazing and hostility mentioned above, there was something which could have been turned into something quite positive. The forums did have the capacity to come together and do good things for each other, and I'm sure had the potential to integrate and charm other people too. I think that OWF has had a colourful and endearing cast of characters, quite a few of whom remain, and I think that's something that could endear newcomers to the forums even if they didn't join with particularly serious intent to discuss Oddworld or anything else.

This is a very big post to say I'm making very few real suggestions that can be acted upon. Sorry that I don't have much to actually contribute!

Manco · #48 12-21-2015, 04:55 PM

It looks to me like there are two overall issues we need to address.

First is the site itself: administration, software, forum skin, features.
Second is the community: posting activity, toxic atmosphere, reasons to join, things to do as part of the group.

So where do we go from here?

Job McYossie · #49 12-21-2015, 05:10 PM

either current mods get harder on assholes like me or we get more mods that can be hard.

**JayDee** · #50 12-21-2015, 05:31 PM

I can be hard.

DWeedMan · #51 12-21-2015, 08:12 PM

Been a lurker on here for longer than I can remember, never really posted even when I joined, surprised I have 28 posts, thought it would be 10 at best.

This place is dead because there's literally nothing to talk about; the remake came out, it was OK I guess, pretty much no real news on Oddworld since then. Frankly I'm surprised this place has gone on for as long as it has. I've never felt intimidated by the shitposting/insults that go on though, it's a forum for god's sake!

Not much I can really add, other than that this place's death has been pretty natural, any forum dies if there's nothing to talk about.

***Nate*** · #52 12-21-2015, 10:25 PM

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either current mods get harder on assholes like me or we get more mods that can be hard.

I refer you back to my previous comment about reporting post. I need you to tell me when to get hard on.

Shade667 · #53 12-22-2015, 01:45 AM

Aside from the really mean negreps i received the moment i joined the toxicity hasnt been too bad. But i havnt been here that long.

***Xavier*** · #54 12-22-2015, 03:12 AM

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However. It's not the site which is the reason why people turn their heads to this place. It's us. -well. it's some of us.

Some of our attitudes are downright disgusting. Shit posting everywhere, in jokes which all sound offensive to an outside observer and a great lack of engaging conversations. It's just things like "ur opinion sucks". No wonder people get scared off. I don't blame them.

Recently, Even I wanted out. I almost left for good. I'm not naming names but some of you drive me nuts. This is not how a community should interact with each other. If you want to be a nasty fuck, go to Reddit or something.

I want this to be the place Oddworld fans interact and discuss the games. Nowadays this place is just an excuse to post shit. Now I'm not saying off-topic isn't a bad thing, I love the off-topic section. But it always seems like if there isn't any Oddworld related stuff. We might as well shit post everywhere.

My feelings exactly...

To me the biggest problem with this place is that it is full of assholes posting shit everywhere. I don't like it but lets face it this forum stayed alive for years because of them interacting in the off-topic discussion. You just had to look where the activity was during the long period between SW and NnT.

We've had regularly discussions with the other mods about trying to clean the place up, the conclusion that was almost always reached was that it would just drive the last remaining users away.

So yeah we kind of let it rot away (at least some of us did). But I want you to know that as a mod of the Oddworld Discussion part of the forum it's very hard when you realise that the best reactivity (and even reputation) is achieved by posting stupid off-topic jokes.

So now, quite unexpectedly Oddworld is back and generates new fans. Which should have been a good thing but they were driven away by the asshole jokes and sheer negativity of some members. (even an Oddworld Community manager fled this place because of it). It only takes a few to spoil it for the rest of us.

I love the idea of having a place to interact with other Oddworld fans in a more structured way than posts on twitter and facebook. I'm just afraid this place isn't it.

If a new forum opens somewhere else really dedicated to discuss Oddworld related things I would join in a heartbeat. Actually I already did a couple of times in the past but they all died out because of admin ego problems.

I'm willing to try to turn this place around, I sure can be tougher when needed. I'm just not sure we now have enough topics or material to relaunch interesting Oddworld Discussion.

Havoc · #55 12-22-2015, 03:16 AM

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It looks to me like there are two overall issues we need to address.

First is the site itself: administration, software, forum skin, features.
Second is the community: posting activity, toxic atmosphere, reasons to join, things to do as part of the group.

So where do we go from here?

It's up to Nate as the man in charge as to how far he wants to take this, really. If Peter continues refusing to help him then the only way to accomplish part one is to start a completely new site, with a new domain and probably lose all the history of this place in the process.

The second can be fixed right here. First step, appoint some new mods. Second step: turn off that god-awful manual account confirmation if it wasn't already. There's no larger deterrent for new members to start posting than making them wait hours or even days before their account is active.

So yeah, what do?

STM · #56 12-22-2015, 03:21 AM

I don't think anyone would be opposed to fronting cash for some new forum software and a couple of new forum skins, either modified or specifically designed, that'd solve some of the first issue. The problem of course, is whether or not Peter would actually let Nate implement those things.

Is it not worth letting Alcar know that the forum is discontent with the current state of things, and that if he doesn't get off his backside people will start something new?

Havoc · #57 12-22-2015, 03:43 AM

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I don't think anyone would be opposed to fronting cash for some new forum software and a couple of new forum skins, either modified or specifically designed, that'd solve some of the first issue. The problem of course, is whether or not Peter would actually let Nate implement those things.

Is it not worth letting Alcar know that the forum is discontent with the current state of things, and that if he doesn't get off his backside people will start something new?

Nate already suggested everyone send Peter a message on Facebook to let him know how we feel. I've already sent him something, but as usual I didn't get a response. If we start something new though, Peter wouldn't be involved as it would obviously be placed on a completely new hosting account. If Peter would let Nate do these things on our current host we wouldn't be having this conversation.

kjjcarpenter · #58 12-22-2015, 03:45 AM

What's the story with Alcar anyway? If he/she is never here, why does he/she care about what happens to this place? Surely it wouldn't be too much of an issue to hand over the keys so things might be able to change, yunno, for the better.

Speaking of which, who is actually fronting the bills at this point in time? Would that be you, Nate?

***Xavier*** · #59 12-22-2015, 03:51 AM

Alcar is still the one who pays... doesn't prevent him to treat this place like shit. Which is exactly what its users have turned it into.

Phylum · #60 12-22-2015, 04:23 AM

This place goes back a long way and I assume it has a lot of sentimentality for Alcar. He's been the owner for something like 13 years now.

The forum I loved is already gone, so I don't see any harm in trying something new. Like Havoc said, the new member approval would be good to do away with, but we'd need to actually update the forum software first. I'd be all for cracking down on behavior and going clean, then trying to officially affiliate with OI. I know I speak for a few people when I say that nothing we do will ever fill the OWF shaped hole in our hearts, but it would be good to usher in a modern site to give people a friendly forum for discussing Oddworld in the future. Oddworld Forums: The Next Generation.

That said, I don't see myself offering much to a new forum. I hardly have a reason other than habit to keep visiting here