Heaven is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark

[T-nex]

I have been quite scathing of self-professed agnostics in the past. I don't know, believe nor hope that Wings fits quite into the categories I lay out here, but a lot of people do, and it grinds my gears.

Firstly: they don't know what the word means. They think it sits neatly between atheism and theism, when in fact it isn't even on the same scale. They also believe that when faced with two opposing viewpoints, the stance perfectly between them is the one most enlightened and closest to the truth, or otherwise the best to hold pending additional information. This is rarely the case.

In fact, atheism and agnosticism are two answers to two different questions. Agnosticism and gnosticism (the intellectual stance, not the slightly mystic religious order) answer the question "do you know whether there is/are god/gods?" or "is it possible to know whether there is/are god/gods?". This is entirely different from the question that atheism and theism are answers to: "Do you believe that there is/are god/gods?". As such, almost all agnostics are atheists and almost all atheists are (at least technically) agnostics. Self-described agnostics often dislike labelling themselves as atheists partly because of the previously explained misconception, but also because of the weird and undeserved social stigma of atheism, and at worst because they like to feel superior to both theists and atheists, and have found a way.

There is one small group of people who, when the above is explained, insist that they actually are between theism and atheism in answer to the belief question. Who whom I can only say, this issue is boolean. You either believe in one or more gods or you don't. To sit between these points is to not know what your beliefs are, that is to say, to not know your own mind. I have no interest in the opinions of, nor discussion with, people who don't even know their own minds, and there is no respect to be had for those who permit themselves to remain in such a state.

Wow.. Im honestly saddened to see you make a post like this. I think it's quite unfairly judgemental.

For one... Not every single person on the planet can be a scientist and make 'enlightened' posts.

I think you are looking at the case wrong. Sure some people may use some terms wrong, but terms are bound to get lost in the masses. Terms change meanings all the time, and at the moment a lot of people seem to believe that agnostics means you don't take a stance.

But I'm sure if you actually took the time to discuss with a self-professed agnostic about why they feel like they feel, you will get something totally different than you initially thought. It's not like they are lower than you for thinking the way they do.

I can understand the whole "I dont wanna discuss with noncommital people" which seems to be what you complain about. Because discussing with a person who doesn't even commit to the subject at hand will most likely lead to nowhere and be a waste of time. But why on earth do you need to make it an issue about respect. Some people simply don't care about religion, and maybe that is 'not knowing one's mind'... But there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with admitting that one does not have enough knowledge to even make a stance on the subject.
And there is nothing wrong in not taking an interest in the subject either.

I just think you shouldn't be so harsh about this, and just let people be. If they think they are atheists and they aren't, you can always just correct them without judging them for it. Today, most people refer to agnostics as indecisiveness about religion, so can you really blame them for taking that meaning to heart?

Also why is the issue boolean? Saying that you know for sure IS arrogant because science doesn't cover everything and neither does religion.
There is a slight chance that somewhere in the future someone will have discovered something so totally foreign and strange that some would call it supernatural.
I mean, based on the current knowledge we have, there isn't really any proof of a god(as far as I know)... But who knows... Maybe there will be. Who can say for sure. That's why i think it's important to keep an open mind both ways.


Im sorry if I sound angry, but I just feel disheartened seeing you being so harsh. I didn't think it was actually possible to see you this way x_x

Maybe I just also totally misunderstood what you were trying to say in which case Im sorry and nvm


Anyway personally I don't know what my label would be. I think things such as written religions are bullshit.
But I don't think powerful beings with god-like powers are impossible.
I mean there is a lot we still haven't discovered. Unfortunately I'm not really sciency enough to make an informed opinion. I just go by gut feeling.
Really, I really WANT there to be more to life than just what is. So I often delve into subjects about spirituality. I don't find the idea of spirituality impossible. Or maybe it's just that I don't want to because the world as it is doesn't interest me much.

Yea... Anyway sorry for this outburst. This is probably going to backlash at me somehow.

[STM]

When, where and why did you lose a load of rep for calling the Stars 'n' Stripes shit?

Just a shame we always pick religion or sexuality to debate about.

I won't name the dirty wanker but he neg repped me and said something like, fucking hilarious, it's in the flags and heraldry topic, not even my wittiest remark.

EDIT: Shit Nexy, take your meds! O__O

[Bullet Magnet]

I think you are looking at the case wrong. Sure some people may use some terms wrong, but terms are bound to get lost in the masses. Terms change meanings all the time, and at the moment a lot of people seem to believe that agnostics means you don't take a stance.

But I'm sure if you actually took the time to discuss with a self-professed agnostic about why they feel like they feel, you will get something totally different than you initially thought. It's not like they are lower than you for thinking the way they do.

I don't judge people for their ignorance until after the missing information is made available. I'm always explaining what these terms mean. I know there are different meanings for words, and when enough people use them the wrong way for long enough they end up in the dictionary and become right. But for the purpose of expressing ideas I need to end everyone in the discussion on to the same page on language, at the very least. Then we can actually have the damn discussion. They're probably still agnostic then, but they also know whether they are theist or atheist, or pantheist and the other nonsense. Some of them might even be persuaded to admit it. I know those who write columns and blogs and so forth who have made this precise transformation, and I think their work on this particular topic has improved as a result. For starters, I get to agree or disagree instead of just being annoyed.

I can understand the whole "I dont wanna discuss with noncommital people" which seems to be what you complain about. Because discussing with a person who doesn't even commit to the subject at hand will most likely lead to nowhere and be a waste of time. But why on earth do you need to make it an issue about respect. Some people simply don't care about religion, and maybe that is 'not knowing one's mind'... But there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with admitting that one does not have enough knowledge to even make a stance on the subject.
And there is nothing wrong in not taking an interest in the subject either.

Lots of people have not even thought about it, which makes these discussions the start of that thought and conversation. I don't get shrill, strident, rude and whatever else we're accused of until they come back and say "I've given it a lot of thought and have concluded that I don't know what I think". They can get in the fecking sack, where they'll be beaten with sticks.

I just think you shouldn't be so harsh about this, and just let people be. If they think they are atheists and they aren't, you can always just correct them without judging them for it. Today, most people refer to agnostics as indecisiveness about religion, so can you really blame them for taking that meaning to heart?

I can when they stick with it after beings asked "how would you describe yourself under these particular definitions?"

Also why is the issue boolean? Saying that you know for sure IS arrogant because science doesn't cover everything and neither does religion.
There is a slight chance that somewhere in the future someone will have discovered something so totally foreign and strange that some would call it supernatural.
I mean, based on the current knowledge we have, there isn't really any proof of a god(as far as I know)... But who knows... Maybe there will be. Who can say for sure. That's why i think it's important to keep an open mind both ways.

Er, check again? That was the one I specifically laid out as being about belief, not knowledge.

Im sorry if I sound angry, but I just feel disheartened seeing you being so harsh. I didn't think it was actually possible to see you this way x_x

Maybe I just also totally misunderstood what you were trying to say in which case Im sorry and nvm

I'll take door number two please.

Yea... Anyway sorry for this outburst. This is probably going to backlash at me somehow.

Lash back! BOOM!

[T-nex]

Oh... Ok

Honestly, initially you just kinda made it sound sort of like "ahaha those pasky dumb little agnostic-wannabes"... Which I super dont approve of >: (.

But then I'm probably not exactly sure what you're complaining about.

Anyway Ill respond to this one since the rest I pretty much got an answer to.

Er, check again? That was the one I specifically laid out as being about belief, not knowledge.

I dunno... Even if its just about belief. Can you tell me why it's so important to already be sure about one's believe. It's just personally I don't understand how you can either believe or not believe. Why is indecisiveness such a bad thing(besides the fact that when conversing with these people it can be very unproductive and boring).

[Wings of Fire]

Taking a stance of indecisiveness and arguing in favour for it smacks of the Golden Mean Fallacy.

It's subtly different to my strategy of hanging around the middle and asking awkward questions at both sides until a non moderate religious 'debater' comes along.

Like Lord Stanley. Fucking Lord Stanley.

[Rex Tirano]

Just because a belief may not be as concrete or well-founded as yours does not make it any less valid. I don't think it's as much about indecisiveness as it is about feelings about identity, experiences with the religion itself and how much the person actually cares about religion.

Being an agnostic (noun) doesn't necessarily mean that they don't know their own mind. And tbh you saying that you have no time for agnostic people, it makes you sound a little pretentious.

Taking a stance of indecisiveness and arguing in favour for it smacks of the Golden Mean Fallacy.

But I don't think anyone should disregard it as a valid stance. In these sorts of debates all stances are valid and correct because they're all personal and individualised. However, some may be more fun in a debate than others.

I would say I lean alot more to the theist side than the atheist side, however I doubt the Christian church is for me because I have had alot of bad experiences with people who are Christian and there are some parts of the Bible that I don't agree with. I don't know really how a "personal God" or how interpretting the text as a metaphor actually affects the faith, and I don't agree with people picking and choosing the bits they do and don't like.

That said, I know very little about any other religion other than Buddhism.

- Rexy

[Wings of Fire]

I'd recommend Pantheism, it's very intuitive and singularly beautiful if you don't let any religious organizations get in the way of it.

[Bullet Magnet]

Everything is god is the same as nothing is god. It further exacerbates the meaningless of the word.

I get the impression that my agnosticism post has been wildly misunderstood, but I really don't know how to be any clearer than I have already been.

[Wings of Fire]

Everything is god is the same as nothing is god. It further exacerbates the meaningless of the word.

The universe seems to hold up mostly to the Godhood tests of omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenelovence. It's pretty much metaphysical certainty derived from everything physical. A hell of a lot more intuitive than big men with beards, elephants, six armed chicks and jackal headed dudes.

I'm not a spiritual person, but if I were I think I would be drawn towards the least egotistical concept of God.

[Bullet Magnet]

But knowledge of every particle of the universe breaks the second law of thermodynamics. Anything capable of computing such a perfectly rendered model of the universe requires more storage and processing than can be achieved with all the matter in the universe. The entire universe can act as a model of that universe, if that is considered a worthwhile endeavour, but knowing it, understanding it, computing it, that would then have to be done by an external entity not constrained by the thermodynamics of being in that universe (or being that universe). And the external entity is just as nonsensical and unnecessary.

[Wings of Fire]

I think it's a little weak to chain a postulated metaphysical entity with physical laws.

This is purely theoretical anyway. I'm not saying I believe in it, just that it paints a more coherent picture than the Judaic God or any pantheon.

[Bullet Magnet]

It can't be metaphysical. If you say that the universe, which is physical, is god, then you have immediately imposed the laws of the universe on it. To then say that the universe implies traits of this god, which is also the universe, that are clearly obviated by those very laws, cannot be anything but nonsense.

[Havoc]

It's one thing to throw theories around about the universe of which we know about 0.000000001%. It's completely retarded to speculate how the universe would affect a god that doesn't exist, and which, if it would exists, would be far beyond our comprehension.

In other words, now you're trying to apply logic to something that is by definition illogical.

[Wings of Fire]

You'll have to excuse me for my general ignorance about the theology of pantheism, but wouldn't the response be to hold that the universe is merely the physical representation of God, which is by nature an entity that exists beyond the universe. Hence, a metaphysical entity?

[Bullet Magnet]

He defined a hypothetical god into the realm of our understanding and comprehension. It can then be dealt with succinctly.

I may be wrong, but at least it's possible to show it now.

EDIT: and defined it back out again.

[T-nex]

I would say I lean alot more to the theist side than the atheist side, however I doubt the Christian church is for me because I have had alot of bad experiences with people who are Christian and there are some parts of the Bible that I don't agree with.
- Rexy

This is actually kinda interesting to me.

What is it that you mean that you lean towards theism? What's your thoughts and ideas? Elaborate =)

[Wings of Fire]

He defined a hypothetical god into the realm of our understanding and comprehension. It can then be dealt with succinctly.

I may be wrong, but at least it's possible to show it now.

EDIT: and defined it back out again.

Three Quick Steps Towards Enlightening Your Masses

1, God's existence is fallible

2, God's existence is physical

3, Heaven is over thataway!

[Bullet Magnet]

I predict a riot.

[Manco]

Who made you the Kaiser Chief?

[Strike Witch]

My God is an old bat who lives on a mountaintop and occasionally ends up drunk.

[STM]

Too much Night on Bald Mountain Strike Witch...

[Nate]

I get the impression that my agnosticism post has been wildly misunderstood, but I really don't know how to be any clearer than I have already been.

I had another read of it and though I understood every part of it, I'm not sure whether I understand the whole.

Let's see if I can sum it up, starting with definitions.
Atheism = Belief that god does not exist.
Theism = Belief that god does exist.

Agnosticism = Claiming not to know whether god exists.
Gnosticism = Claiming to definitively know that god exists.

Question #1: Is there a name for claiming to know definitively that god does not exist?

Question #2: If I understand correctly, you get frustrated by people defining Agnosticism as believing that god might or might not exist. Is that correct?

Question #3: Why is that a problem?

[MeechMunchie]

Angnosticism? Antignosticism?

I think the reason he's getting angry, and apologies in advance to BM if I get this wrong, is that what most people define as agnosticism means 'I don't know what I think'. Which does seem pretty stupid. It's more and error of terminology than actual belief.

[T-nex]

Angnosticism? Antignosticism?

I think the reason he's getting angry, and apologies in advance to BM if I get this wrong, is that what most people define as agnosticism means 'I don't know what I think'. Which does seem pretty stupid. It's more and error of terminology than actual belief.

But I really don't think it's stupid... For some people, there has just not been enough clarification to decide what they believe or not.

[MeechMunchie]

Then they do know what they think. They think 'there has just not been enough clarification to decide whether there is a god or not'.

There is a subtle but important distiction between picking a neutral standpoint and not knowing which one to pick.

[MarsMudoken]

I'm willing to believe that maybe, there will be something out there, something waiting for us when we bite the dust. But it's probably beyond anything we could possibly comprehend, so I'll just live my life, and cross that bridge when I come to it.



Until then I'll annoy you all.

[T-nex]

Then they do know what they think. They think 'there has just not been enough clarification to decide whether there is a god or not'.

There is a subtle but important distiction between picking a neutral standpoint and not knowing which one to pick.

But I don't think there's a single person on this planet who truly doesnt know what they think.. That would either mean they have some form of mental retardation, or under-developed or something.

Everyone has a reason for thinking like they do. "i don't know what to think" always stems from some sort of confusing which easily can be clarified... And some people just need more clarification than others...

Anyway I also think the difference is so small, that it's unimportant x_x
I honestly think this isn't something people should be deemed stupid for.


Maybe I also just cant wrap my head around what on earth you guys mean D= (english is my second language after all).

[Strike Witch]

Too much Night on Bald Mountain Strike Witch...

I'm being ultra-weeaboo you idiot.

[Bullet Magnet]

Let's see if I can sum it up, starting with definitions.
Atheism = Belief that god does not exist.

Lack of belief that any gods exist.

Question #1: Is there a name for claiming to know definitively that god does not exist?

Gnostic atheism, strong atheism, 7.0 on the Dawkins Scale.

Question #2: If I understand correctly, you get frustrated by people defining Agnosticism as believing that god might or might not exist. Is that correct?

I get frustrated by people describing themselves as agnostics to feel superior to atheists and agnostics who haven't bothered learning what either really are beyond their caricature. And contempt (on this topic) for those so muddled that they have no idea what their own thoughts are even after considering them for some time. Rare, but I've met them.

Question #3: Why is that a problem?

It's not until this is revealed deep into a discussion (the only place it ever will be) and I find that I've been talking/arguing with someone who can't read his/her own thoughts and never had a position to argue from to begin with, despite entering the conversation claiming that they did.

I'm irritated by those people now, but it becomes a problem for me once we get into that situation.

[STM]

I'm being ultra-weeaboo you idiot.

My bad for not watching your shit.