If they made Munch's Exoddus

[SlagoTheSlig]

Should it be 3D or 2D like the previous Oddworld games?

[Crashpunk]

I'd love to see Munch in the "Abe style". Having Abe and Munch team up in a 2D environment could be really awesome.

But if it was 3D. It would need to be vastly different to MO. Or at least, hugely improved without all the Spooces and crappy platforming.

[Havoc]

I've never thought moving away from the 2D platform gameplay was a bad decision, but it was just extremely poorly executed in MO. Also in that era 3D was the next big thing, you'd fall behind if you didn't tag along so in a way they had no choice. Today that pressure is no longer an issue and they could probably get away with making 2D platformers until the end of time if it stays new and fresh with every game. The question is, will it do Lorne's story justice to stay in 2D forever?

[Manco]

MO was a very poorly-executed 3D platformer, if it was remade today it could be so much better without having to fall back to 2D. I’m sick of 2D puzzle-platformers, Oddworld can be so much more.

[Job McYossie]

Munch really needs to be 3D. I just don't think munch's dynamics would be good in 2D.

[Nate]

Munch really needs to be 3D. I just don't think munch's dynamics would be good in 2D.

Well, obviously. If it was in 2D it'd have to be a very different game. But it could theoretically capture the story that Lorne originally wanted to tell.

[Vlam]

It could be a mix of 2D and 3D.

[Nepsotic]

That would be very disjointed. Unless you're talking about 2.5D, in which case it's still 2D.

I don't think Munch would work in 2D unless Abe was removed from the gameplay. The switch mechanic would be too weird.
I also don't care for Munch as a character which is why I'm not remotely arsed about it being remade or having a sequel for it.

[Vlam]

I mean, you play in 3D and some times in 2D (when Abe is all alone for example).

But the real problem of MO is not link to the 3D : Munch is a burden. It's not really clever, it's tedious when you have to play a character after another. The level must have water (if that's not the case, Munch is useless). Furthermore, it gets boring. How can ME get rid of this flaws ?

[Havoc]

If I remember correctly, Lorne has always wanted these five anti-heroes to be the protagonists. Characters that you wouldn't ordinarily consider a good lead character for anything. The only reason Mudokons were made somewhat humanoid is because they were afraid it would alienate too much of the potential audience if they didn't. By the time MO rolled around apparently Lorne figured there was a big enough fan base to dial up the anti-hero level. If that that trend continues I fear for what the next protagonist is going to be.

Munch as a character is just incredibly bad and annoying. The addition of the Jekyll and Hyde mechanic would probably have fixed that to an extent, or made him even more shallow as a character. Guess we'll never know.

[kjjcarpenter]

Do you think when (if) the Quintology continues, Munch will be sidelined, and Abe will continue on with his destiny alone? Considering the feedback of Munch as a character, I don't see the likelihood of our friendly neighbourhood Gabbit hopping his way into Nolybab. Even ignoring his presence from a meta-standpoint, a handicap, water-bound, belching sidekick doesn't exactly seem like the ideal backup for a renowned terrorist who can possess any living creature, force said creatures to spontaneously combust, and occasionally transform into a literal God.

Damn, Abe sounds badass when you say it like that!

In one of his recent interviews, Lorne said that he has learnt his lesson about an identifiable protagonist, and that constantly introducing another member to the party with each instalment would be a burden upon the audience. I wonder what that means for Squeek.

[Manco]

Munch made his debut in a game that was rushed out at a time when 3D games were still finding their feet, and the game itself had a troubled development resulting in a lot of cut content. It’s seriously unfair to talk about Munch as a character if we only examine his role in MO; in my opinion he wasn’t presented well but he remains a character with a lot of potential.

[Varrok]

[Havoc]

Do you think when (if) the Quintology continues, Munch will be sidelined, and Abe will continue on with his destiny alone? Considering the feedback of Munch as a character, I don't see the likelihood of our friendly neighbourhood Gabbit hopping his way into Nolybab. Even ignoring his presence from a meta-standpoint, a handicap, water-bound, belching sidekick doesn't exactly seem like the ideal backup for a renowned terrorist who can possess any living creature, force said creatures to spontaneously combust, and occasionally transform into a literal God.

Damn, Abe sounds badass when you say it like that!

In one of his recent interviews, Lorne said that he has learnt his lesson about an identifiable protagonist, and that constantly introducing another member to the party with each instalment would be a burden upon the audience. I wonder what that means for Squeek.

Personally I would rather see Abe as the main protagonist throughout the rest of the series, instead of him being a sidekick for every new game moving forward. Lorne should turn the idea around and have focus on Abe who then encounters and helps these 4 other 'heroes' during his own quests. Similar in a way to MO, except the focus was too much on Munch and his half arsed story (which was also due to the troubled development Manco mentioned).

[Manco]

Personally I would rather see Abe as the main protagonist throughout the rest of the series, instead of him being a sidekick for every new game moving forward. Lorne should turn the idea around and have focus on Abe who then encounters and helps these 4 other 'heroes' during his own quests. Similar in a way to MO, except the focus was too much on Munch and his half arsed story (which was also due to the troubled development Manco mentioned).

Actually MO is pretty much like that already. You start as Abe, you spend most of the game playing as Abe and Munch never really has an active drive on the story (since Abe was helping Munch get the Gabbiar so that in return he could rescue more Mudokons from Vykkers Labs, he would have gone there anyways). Even the conclusion of the story is Abe possessing Lulu to win the auction, something Munch could not have done.

[Vlam]

Munch made his debut in a game that was rushed out at a time when 3D games were still finding their feet, and the game itself had a troubled development resulting in a lot of cut content. It’s seriously unfair to talk about Munch as a character if we only examine his role in MO; in my opinion he wasn’t presented well but he remains a character with a lot of potential.

It's a myth made up by Lanning (he isn't the only one, Molyneux did the same thing with "Fable", another game creator who gets away with everything). I don't buy the "it's the fault of Microsoft, and we didn't have enough time !". He made poors decisions from the start, he was then stuck with the game-design. It's not Microsoft who came up with the "boing", vending machines, spooces, bad controls, etc. Truth is : the game could be slightly better. One should stop with the "a lot of cut content".

[Manco]

It's a myth made up by Lanning (he isn't the only one, Molyneux did the same thing with "Fable", another game creator who get away with everything). I don't buy the "it's the fault of Microsoft, and we didn't have enough time !". He made poors decisions from the start, he was then stuck with the game-design. It's not Microsoft who came up with the "boing", vending machines, spooces, bad controls, etc. Truth is : the game could be slightly better. One should stop with the "a lot of cut content".

Console launch titles are well-known to have major problems during game development (see: Spyro Enter the Dragonfly, Sonic the Hedgehog 2006) and the cut content has been well-documented in both early pre-alpha videos and the Art of Oddworld Inhabitants book. You’re wrong, please stop with your inane crusade against Lorne Lanning.

[Vlam]

I know I'm talking to a believer, but whatever (ironically, on OWF some are making fun of religion). Spyro Enter the Dragonfly, Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 : these games don't pretend to be something else than platformers !

"Pre-alpha videos" ? Well, you should watch these videos again, they are faithful to MO. You don't see Abe stealing moolahs from other mudokons (you know, the "cut content").

"the Art of Oddworld Inhabitants book" : don't you see a difference between a picture and a video game content ?

"You’re wrong, please stop with your inane crusade against Lorne Lanning" : it's not a crusade against him, he is just selling dreams (who are in his head).

[Manco]

I know I'm talking to a believer, but whatever (ironically, on OWF some are making fun of religion). Spyro Enter the Dragonfly, Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 : these games don't pretend to be something else than platformers !

Just like MO, they were games made as console launch titles. Just like MO, they were developed with a lot more content in mind. Just like MO, they had to be cut back in scope significantly to meet their deadline. And just like MO, this meant they didn’t get all the content they originally intended in to the final shipped game, and they wound up as disappointing games. MO never “pretended to be” something.

"Pre-alpha videos" ? Well, you should watch these videos again, they are faithful to MO. You don't see Abe stealing moolahs from other mudokons (you know, the "cut content").

When I watch those videos I see stealth mechanics that never made it in, character and environment interactions that never made it in

"the Art of Oddworld Inhabitants book" : don't you see a difference between a picture and a video game content ?

There’s no difference between production artwork and planned content.

"You’re wrong, please stop with your inane crusade against Lorne Lanning" : it's not a crusade against him, he is just selling dreams (who are in his head).

Discussing game ideas that haven’t been developed yet isn’t “selling dreams”.

[kjjcarpenter]

I feel like the biggest deterrent against the Munch story as it currently exists is how pointless it feels in the grand scheme of things. For one of the pivotal entries in the Quintology, not a lot happened. All of the major storyline advancements were dropped, such as Molluck's Trial and the Sam's Liberation

The game is definitely a shadow of what it was supposed to be. Wasn't the original concept along the lines of Hand of Odd, where you would switch back and forth between Abe/Munch and Lulu, making decisions that would affect the environment? Ergo, you could make a small profit and maintain a healthy ecosystem, or you could ravage the land and rake in the Moolah. I believe Lorne revealed that recently, and, conceptually, it sounds really cool. I think the Quarmic ending in this version of the game would have likely been more about the state of Eastern Mudos as opposed to Abe succeeding or being turned into minced-meat, and that would have definitely been more becoming of the second Oddysee.

Obviously what we got was a watered down, straightforward, action/adventure game. It's a shame, but those are the breaks. You can blame Microsoft, or call Lorne a liar, whatever helps you sleep. It's not going to change things. Such is the nature of the game industry, and hopefully, someday, we might see a correction to the great sin.

[Vlam]

I will respond to Manco later.

Obviously what we got was a watered down, straightforward, action/adventure game.

Yes, I don't say otherwise. I'm just saying : from the beginning, Lanning couldn't do something else. You have the proof with Stranger's Wrath who is also a action/adventure game (yes, I know, "but it's not part of the quintology").

The game is definitely a shadow of what it was supposed to be. Wasn't the original concept along the lines of Hand of Odd, where you would switch back and forth between Abe/Munch and Lulu, making decisions that would affect the environment?

Truth is, you can't make this game. Moreover, how can you make this interesting to play ? When they had already a hard time with Munch and Abe in MO.

Lanning should be compare to Molyneux. They aren't like Kojima and Miyamoto who are, actually, making games. Look, we are spending a lot of time talking of what could have been a game. And we are enjoying it (more than the actual oddworld games). This is the oddworld experience. So I don't mock Lanning when I say that he is a dream seller : it's part of the charm.

[Havoc]

I will respond to Manco later.


Yes, I don't say otherwise. I'm just saying : from the beginning, Lanning couldn't do something else. You have the proof with Stranger's Wrath who is also a action/adventure game (yes, I know, "but it's not part of the quintology").


Truth is, you can't make this game. Moreover, how can you make this interesting to play ? When they had already a hard time with Munch and Abe in MO.

Lanning should be compare to Molyneux. They aren't like Kojima and Miyamoto who are, actually, making games. Look, we are spending a lot of time talking of what could have been a game. And we are enjoying it (more than the actual oddworld games). This is the oddworld experience. So I don't mock Lanning when I say that he is a dream seller : it's part of the charm.

Lorne does a lot of talking and a lot of philosofing on life. The man has a vision for this insanely large and complicated universe he thought up in the 80's or something and as cliché as some of it might be, he wants to tell it the way he envisions it. Good on him. Problem was that back in the 90's and 00's, he either didn't have the tech, the money or the resources to tell the story the way he wanted to.

It's easy to make fun of the guy for the stuff he says and the stuff he screwed up, but fact of the matter is that this guy has been chasing and realizing his dreams for the past 20 years and he's still going at it, all the while learning something new every step of the way and applying it to his future projects. I respect the guy for that above anything else. Even if Munch was a failure, at least he tried and at least he learned from the mistakes he made.

[Phylum]

MO was always too ambitious and was never going to be true the original vision. It's just a pity they struggled so much with time.

After MO Lorne stepped away from his grand vision and made a conceptually simpler game, SW. When that flopped he left game development to focus on movies. I don't see what the problem there is.

[Nepsotic]

He didn't make any movies, though.

[Manco]

He tried though.

[Vlam]

Manco :

MO never “pretended to be” something.

Lanning said he was overly-ambitious at that time. It's also why we are spending a lot of time talking about the "extended cut content".

When I watch those videos I see stealth mechanics that never made it in, character and environment interactions that never made it in

Nothing new (except the atmospher) in this video of 2000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg7-HE4PJJc
Here, for example, the only difference is that Abe can grab sligs : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zh-FcVDMeQ

Anyway, we didn't talk about the Oddworld action figures (another fail project) :

Nathan: (from forum admin Wil) In the 1999 E3 pamphlet there was a quote from you saying “Just wait until you see what we drop on the world of action figures!” Are you able to reveal what that was about?

Lorne: Well, we had a thing called ‘OddWar’ and it was an action figure game that you could play anywhere. The action figures had certain moves and then – do you remember what Whiz Kids did with keeping count on the bases? Whiz Kids was founded by Jordan Weisman, a brilliant guy, who created the MechWarrior series and FASA, all these different companies. But, at the base there was a scorekeeper. So, we wanted to take all the Oddworld action figures, make them really quality action figures, but make that playable as an action figure game. And we have it, we still have it, so we can still do it.

[Manco]

Lanning said he was overly-ambitious at that time. It's also why we are spending a lot of time talking about the "extended cut content".

That’s not pretending to be something. If MO was marketed as an FPS, that would be pretending to be something.

Nothing new (except the atmospher) in this video of 2000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg7-HE4PJJc

What about the very obviously highlighted powerup which was never featured in the final game? The one the video pauses and draws a big red circle around?

Here, for example, the only difference is that Abe can grab sligs : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zh-FcVDMeQ

And hide in the shadows. Not to mention the additional background noise, the extra idle animation for the Slig, or the heavier use of fixed camera angles.

Anyway, how about the unused CG cutscenes, the Big Bro Slig having a shield and a different Blitzpacker function, Native airships and Industrial watchtowers, a dynamic water table, the ability to affect the weather, cutting down and regrowing trees, functioning Paramite and Scrab herds, more interactive environments and interaction between characters, and Industrial airships and vending machine turrets.

But no, clearly Lorne was just lying through his teeth about the plans for MO.

Anyway, we didn't talk about the Oddworld action figures (another fail project) :

Because it’s irrelevant to the discussion about MO.

[Vlam]

That’s not pretending to be something. If MO was marketed as an FPS, that would be pretending to be something.

With years of conceptual design already behind it, work started on Oddworld: Munch’s Oddysee in earnest, a revolutionary title combining action, adventure, role-playing, stategy and simulation, with vehicle-driving, critter-husbandry, environmental management and exploitable addictions, day cycles and class struggles.

http://www.oddworld.com/oddworld-history/
"Revolutionary" like Fable.


About the videos, again : you should ask yourself "why those parts aren't in MO" ? Even if those things were in MO : it would only improve it slightly. Like I tell kjjcarpenter : you have to make a game fun and interesting to play. The things you are showing me are gimmicks and mini-games (and not "revolutionary") so they get rid of them because they are pointless. At the end of the day, it doesn't change the game who is still about Abe and Munch who are going through cringeworthy mediocre levels (unlike AO and AE).

But no, clearly Lorne was just lying through his teeth about the plans for MO.

I'm not saying that is lying, you miss my point. I'm saying : he knows, deep down, that the "revolutionary title" isn't makeable from the start, even today. To do million things in a game is fine, but what's the point if it's a hot mess ? GTA developers knows that : a game has to be "focus". SW is another proof of why we didn't saw MO's gimmicks in it.

Because it’s irrelevant to the discussion about MO.

No, "OddWar", another revolutionary project who failed.

[Manco]

http://www.oddworld.com/oddworld-history/
"Revolutionary" like Fable.

Unfortunately, technical and time restrictions meant that the final game released in November 2001 fell far short of the Inhabitants’ original vision.

hey look it’s like they fully intended to make the game but ran into problems

About the videos, again : you should ask yourself "why those parts aren't in MO" ? Even if those things were in MO : it would only improve it slightly. Like I tell kjjcarpenter : you have to make a game fun and interesting to play. The things you are showing me are gimmicks and mini-games (and not "revolutionary") so they get rid of them because they are pointless. At the end of the day, it doesn't change the game who is still about Abe and Munch who are going through cringeworthy mediocre levels (unlike AO and AE).

You ask for cut content, I show you cut content. Now you go on that the cut content doesn’t matter because it was all bad anyway. You’re impossible to talk to.

I'm not saying that is lying, you miss my point. I'm saying : he knows, deep down, that the "revolutionary title" isn't makeable from the start, even today. To do million things in a game is fine, but what's the point if it's a hot mess ? GTA developers knows that : a game has to be "focus".

“I’m not saying Lorne is lying, I’m saying he promises games he can’t deliver on”.

That’s accusing him of lying.

SW is another proof of why we didn't saw MO's gimmicks in it.

SW is a different game. It wasn’t designed with the same ideas as MO in mind.

No, "OddWar", another revolutionary project who failed.

Which has no relevance to the discussion about MO.

I’m done, you’re too irritating.

[Vlam]

The truth is irritating. You understand what I mean. I was a believer like you a couple of years ago. Seriously, I would agree with you only if MO were completely different from those videos. MO isn't unfinished.