Shifting Standards, or Isolated side-project?

[Volsung]

OI has changed the subtext of their games. My question is whether this is representative of an actual shift in what they want Oddworld to be about, or if Stranger is simply so set apart from the quintology that this altered mindset applies only to it. I think stranger will be a fun, good game, but the credibility of the Oddworld Universe is called into question by some of the game elements, most notably, the Vacuum and the Chippunkz. The Vacuum I understand, and even if it doesn’t make sense and alters the physics somewhat, this can be overlooked for the simple fact that it is Stranger-centric. We’ll never have to see that vacuum in any quintology game ever.

Chippunkz on the other hand…You KNOW we’re going to see them again, and so I’ve tried to figure out just how possible they are. Below is my attempt.

Throughout the history of earth, there has only been one thing to distinguish human beings from any other animals. We have created a little something called culture. This is probably the distinctive feature oddworld uses when deciding whether a race is intelligent or not, as we all know that fuzzles and Chippunkz can talk, yet do not adorn themselves in any fashion, this raises a question: Why can these things talk?

I believe its fair to write off the fuzzles banal nature with a simple lack of appendages, but the Chippunkz provide us with a much larger problem. If they have the ability to communicate complex thoughts, as well as the dexterity necessary to fashion things of culture, such as tools, art, self-adornment, temples, homes, and the like, why haven’t they?

Two solutions present themselves. The chippunkz have some kind of telepathic ability to know what types of sounds would most irritate other beings. They then simply have the necessary vocal range to carry this out. This is credible to some extent, but why would such a mechanism have evolved?

Another solution. They were once just wildlife that was manipulated by the Vykkers into obtaining the capacity for speech. In an uncharacteristically well-thought move the Vykkers somehow removed the ability to use this speech for anything other than insulting. But again, why?

The most likely solution is just that OI thought it would be funny, and as they had the Fuzzle precedent already set (though fuzzles use their own language) they believed Chippunkz would slip by the feasibility matrix set by fans and into the game with no problem. This makes sense to a degree, given the inconsistencies of most games. But if the unlikely chippunkz (and their equally unlikely upgrades, or rather the manner of obtaining upgrades) becomes the new precedent, what’s to keep the quintology from being affected? Nothing, I fear.

[caracal]

Yes, this is something I have been wondering too, and you have said it in quite a eloquent manner.

I completly see your point about the chippunks....they seem quite unlikely, but I dont have anything to add to your theory, because simply I am not as concerned about that aspect

What is worrying for me is how all of the live amo we've seen thus far are earthling animals ODDified, since while they still got something ODD, it's just the manner their features are drawn, because they all in essense earthlings, I am more worried about OW designs inheriting this characteristic, than the likeness of their features themselves.

because...let's face it, OW isnt exactly about likely evolutive paths, I dont see any reason a predator like the Scrab would try to be visible and colorfull, this feature is only likely in poisonous preys, because no matter how territorial a predator still has to hunt for food which is why no predator desires to be recognizable.

[Wil]

The ‘shifted standards’ of Oddworld are all to observable. Kudos to you, Volsung, for bringing this up, because things have certainly mounted up enough for anyone to see that differences between the last games and Stranger are much more profound than a new gameplay and cast. Most noticeably for those that haven’t been keeping track of Stranger are the obvious differences: elements of FPS, the Western theme, the beefed-up protagonist and the character design. We can dismiss the first three of these as simply OWI wanting to do something a bit different. We already know the Old West feel is primarily just the look of the first part of the game, and there’s no reason why FPS can’t work as well on Oddworld as 3rd person platform puzzle-solving. But for those that are even recently being introduced to these ideas, these are drastic steps away from what Oddworld was meant to be. I’ve seen it happen. Fans are getting upset left and right. But I for one can forgive them.

Character design, on the other hand, is a whole different issue. Here is a simple enough task. Take a look at a Gabbit, or a Vykker, or a Scrab or Paramite. Now take a look at a Clakker, or a Chippunk, or a Wolvark or Stingbee. How can anyone not notice the remarkable lapse in imagination and innovation that is presenting itself here? A Gabbit is a mish-mash of at least half a dozen different creatures, including sea horses, catfish, coelacanths, alligators, rabbits, frogs… A Clakker is a fat humanoid chicken with a couple of Mudokon-esque modifications. A Chippunk is a chipmunk with only two tiny forearms and eyes even bigger than a Fuzzle’s. I needn’t go on, because let’s be honest here when we say that not one creature amongst this new cast is any bit as intriguing or odd as the four familiar faces I named above. Even Fuzzles and Meeps in Munch’s Oddysee looked pretty lacklustre, and I know someone who thinks Ratz are terribly designed, though I think they look great.

Now it does pain me to say all these things: it’s not easy to decry something you love to bits, and I know all too well that there are real people who spent time designing these creatures, and it’s not my intention or desire in the slightest, slimmest way to upset them. But I honestly do not see how these “critters” have slipped through into Oddworld. It was once oft-stated that Lorne had to give the all-clear for any piece of artwork that Farzad Varahramyan and his team came up with. Supposedly hundreds of iterations had to be done until everyone was pleased. Now if it takes 100 iterations to come up with a rotund hen in a dress and bonnet, then I am very worried. A separate series from the Quintology or not, these species are going to be cemented into Oddworld’s established universe.

There are some decent attempts amongst all of this. Stranger’s face looks pretty Oddworldly, but he’s still very much a humanoid (and there are 8 humanoid races appearing in Stranger, as opposed to just two in the last three games put together). Zappflies look great – at least when compared to yet more “furry blob” creatures, and I’m very pleased with the way Slegs have turned out after the first X-Factor viewing. Bolamites, the species to which Blisterz Booty belongs will receive no complaint from me either. Nor will Thudslugs, though that’s bordering on the drab.

I’ve kind of let that one subject drag on far too much. I don’t want to now switch to a different thing to moan about; actually, I would, but I shouldn’t, because then everyone would jump on me for “attacking” the new game before I’ve “even played it,” as if playing the game will some how alter the appearances of the characters. Sorry for not addressing Chippunkz or reality, but I needed a good constructive rant.

EDIT: I'll defend the Scrabs... As was brought up in another thread, it's difficult to see what creatures in the desert Scrabs hunted and ate. There's no reason to assume they had vision as we know it: afterall, neither Scrabs nor Paramites have eyes. On top of that, in what way does orange/red/yellow not blend into a desert environment?

[caracal]

whoah, you just have to agree with max! all excelent points, your post is just like mine but on the 10th potence!

though, to defend the play-before-you-sully-ers the complete cast of the game might overshadow the few unsatisfying efforts you've seen.

oh....and you got me on the prey-senses thing, but still...certain shade of red might be camouflage in some deserts, and a pale yellow might be camouflage in some other deserts, but bright red on bright yellow? no way!

though...I still think a creature is never likely to evolve to have one leg as an extremity, or a single un-articulated toe to be a common evolutive feature...I think the creatures arent exactly likely but still beliveable and loveable.

[Esus]

I still think a creature is never likely to evolve to have one leg as an extremity, or a single un-articulated toe to be a common evolutive feature.

Insects everywhere.

[Xavier]

wow Max, I think I only have to "amen" that.
you definitly are the one with the most constructive critics around here!

I think I agree with every bit you mentioned
(I wonder how you do to tell the things I do in such an admirable way )

[Khanzumer]

To OWIs credit, at least now we know that the tiny bats that could kill Abe unreasonably easily did so by delivering an electric shock like the ones Stranger uses for ammo.

[Volsung]

Caracal and Max both bring up good points. I hadn't really thought of it before but most of the live ammo (And of course the Clakkerz) are Earth creatures that have been oddified. Not "native" to oddworld in the design sense. Perhaps this is simply because Farzad left, though it seems unlikely that this alone could cause such a disjunct. This leads me to my next point.

I believe that Stranger was created game-dynamic first, and story second. Meaning that I think OI wanted to make a different type of Oddworld game (which is cool) and simply put the game-play first. Since it isn't a quintology game, they got a chance to create a story to fit the dynamic that was already in place. I'm by no means implying that the story won't be good or interesting; its Oddworld after all, and they won't likely leave character development behind. Hopefully that part of who they are is unshakable.

Even so, all this I say primarily to draw attention to the fact that the design seems less authentic. And I feel OI might justify this by saying that they created the system first and the means with which to fit it second.

So to sum it up: gameplay first; story second; lesser character design third (or last). We've seen that the emphasis is put on the expansive environments, is it so hard to believe that OI might skimp on the investment of truly Odd-designs? Eh.

And to Khanz's implication that this thread is intended to malign OI, (And I could be imagining it) as Max makes thoroughly clear, and as intend to do so, I think OI is possibly the best game development company currently around. The first couple of games showed a truly revolutionary bent, and my current concern is just that they might drop some of their ambitions because MO fell short of them. In-game menus is just one symptom of that.

And a last note: I think Stranger will be really fun to play. I think it will have a good storyline, and I'm positive it will critisice the money over ethics mindset. I'm excited about the opportunity to play in the Oddworld Universe from a different gameplay perspective. I'm just concerned about the steps they're taking to grab a little more mainstream audience (that's the earth silly-creature design aspect, not the EA publishing thing. That's cool.)

[Wil]

Yes, it couldn’t hurt to re-state that I am not trying to deflate the fact that Oddworld Inhabitants are a remarkable team, a creative genius in the video game industry. I admire them every bit as much as I’ve always done. The core of what they’re doing remains thoroughly Oddworld, in my opinion, and I don’t think their most famed and celebrated attributes of quirky characters and plots, innovative gameplay, beautiful cinematics, great graphics, outstanding vocal talent and Hollywood-style character-based storytelling are going anywhere fast. It’s just that I fell in love with an Oddworld with even more standards than that: imaginative and unique character design, gameplay that discarded the use of in-game menus, a practically utterly believable and clearly well-thought out universe.

Live Ammo is, I think, an example of how gameplay has been placed over the universe’s integrity. I expect to be pointed towards the fact that we haven’t seen the species in the game yet, and that their biographies as creatures could be known by then, either via the game or the website. In that sense, it’s not so much a complaint as a concern. Boombats are well explained – they live in caves and eat Sulphur, hence their nickname Sulphur Bats and their explosive properties. I imagine they’re also nocturnal, which would make them come out at night with the Paramites (quite obviously). But everything else just seems rather… flat. The characters don’t seem so fleshed out. I’m really sorry for saying that, as I guess we don’t know anything more about Mudflubs, Stangs or Sea Rexes. I guess Live Ammo just seems somewhat artificial.

I think the emphasis being placed on expansive environments was more a description of in-game graphics rather than standards of design, and possibly a response to some reactions (such as those bemused by the lack of bump or normal mapping). I’ve heard people saying that the environments in the new game look very Earthly. I personally think they’re being somewhat stubborn: the lush forests, massive Tibetan valley and expansive rocky outcrops look simply gorgeous to me.

And I hate to dismiss Khan’s point, but the bats in Stranger are explosive, not electrocuting, and are also very blatantly different from those in AO. What I would say in OWI’s credit is that they have definitely shown signs of putting a lot of thought into the game. The Vykkers phone, I think, is a good example of that, even if it is the only one I can think of. I would have expected Ratz to at least make an appearance, seeing as they’re supposedly found all over Oddworld. Yet we’ve only seen less than a dozen in total.

No, character design definitely remains my biggest problem with Stranger.

EDIT: Hahahah, screwed up that post. *deletes all past messages from own post before anyone notices*

[Khanzumer]

Maybe they only explode because they are being shot so fast... Oh well, I guess I'm getting my live ammo confused.

I definitely agree that Oddworld's character design seems to be more earth like, but I think that if the game is good nobody will care. That's what it boils down to, because most people don't care as much about Oddworld's realism as they do about playing a good game. If talking chipmonks will help make Stranger fun, so be it.

[Volsung]

That's all well and good, if you're just another game company. But OI isn't about just making games. The idea (originally) was to create capital making revolutionary games in order to tell the quintology story via movies. With the Stranger game, they've changed their ethos, which is acceptable, as its probably just for the side-project, but that isn't a good enough reason to let earthlike wildlife slide by. As Max pointed out, anything done in this game with creatures and environment is, by definition, a part of the Oddworld universe. The Universe holds true for the games, and probably for the moveis. If they do something that doesn't fit, it affects the integrity of everything else. Stranger will surely be a good game, but I don't understand why a chippunkz would have to look like a talking-chipmunk instead of something actually ODD. The ability is there, and with these extra months EA has tacked on, it doesn't seem far-fetched to put just a little more thought into the feasibility of these characters.

[Scrab Watcher]

I agree with what Max has said. If its in the game, it's set in stone. Ever since I saw that first Clakkerz picture I've been down right scared, and I still am. I have no doubt that OWI will give us a stunning game, but it's the universe that I'm worried about. Gamers in general will probably adore it, but what about Oddworld, the world itself?

I'm worried that it will slip into the 'no-explination' catigory that has become common in gaming. Lets be honest, if someone shoots a wild animal, picks it up and slots it in a crossbow, then it's not going to sit there staring up at them. It's going to try to get away from this whatever-it-is thats taking it away from it's home and possibly its family, and it's going to do it fast.

The game will probably be beautiful, with stunning gameplay, but the oddness seems to be seeping away. I understand that it is in another part of Oddworld, but that shouldn't mean lack of oddness, just a different sort.

[Esus]

A perfect way to reinforce the point about such creatures as the chippunks being put into future non-stranger games can be shown by what they've done with the fuzzles.
Introduced in Munch's Oddysee, they became apart of the brilliant universe that includes scrabs and paramites, and in Stranger, they have used fuzzles once again - for a different purpose; that particular character is re-used, much like we will see clakkers, chippunks and skunks all showing up in future games.

[Volsung]

Scrab Watcher's point about the possibility of live ammo is a good one, but there probably are explanations for the relative quiet of creatures on the bow. The electric shock capture, a possible sedative on the bow or in the bag holding them. There are ways to work around a problem of this nature. And the realm of no-explanation in Oddworld is generally relegated to industrial inventions like teleportation. These types of things can slip by without too much trouble because teleportation is an unknown that has been shown so many times in sci-fi that its creation is seen as inevitable.

The bad-guy vacuum must also fall into this category for three reasons: bringing prisoners in alive would be a practical impossibility without it, its an industrial creation, and we probably won't have to see it again. If OI makes Stranger movies, they won't need the vacuum. Its just a questionably necessary game-play element. And frankly, I don't want to carry bags of screaming and kicking outlaws to and from the towns where I can collect bounties.

As for the oddness seeping away, you'd have to define what puts the Odd in oddworld. I consider it to be the intense, anatomical and believable nature of each creature set into an outrageous but sadly understandable social order. OI created a universe that was so well-designed it could be real on its own merit, but every step of the way you realized more and more that they were us. Oh, and light humour. If anything really bothered me about MO, it was the move from the original humour to a more campy setting. I think the Clakkerz are probably just indicative of this trend.

[Statikk HDM]

Yeah, i've noticed this, too. I think the Sobe tie-in was the first sign that they just really didn't give a crap about plausibility. And although this has been stated before, I think the names are weak and the new characters are too anthropomorphic and humanoid. Look at a slog, fleech, or glukkon and then look at the creatures Stranger hunts. One has amazing names and is completely original, inspired, and demented. The other stuff I could throw down in half an hour.

[paramiteabe]

How should I put this? Oddworld is a reality inspired by our reality through the mind of Lorne Lanning. In this case this new reality (hense Oddworld) is of a nature in its self. There is a balance batween reality and Oddworld. The idea here is that we are suppose to look at this as being obvieously fictional but convinceing enough because you can say that something of the nature of Oddworld has the potential of existing because its convinceing.

Now I agree on a lot of the terms you guys mentioned above they could use better names, designs and what not but for all we know this trend may not last. All I am saying is expect things in the future to be more and more outragious.

[Volsung]

How should I put this? Oddworld is a reality inspired by our reality through the mind of Lorne Lanning....All I am saying is expect things in the future to be more and more outragious.

PA, the first line is quite elegant. I couldn't really make heads or tales of the rest of that paragraph, but I think I get you. But again, its the last line that deserves the attention, right? Outrageous. What exactly do you mean by that? I worry that OI have decided to get really out there with the goofy side of their endeavours at the expense of the fidelity of the Oddworld universe.

I originally created this thread meaning to talk about the disconnect between the ethos behind the quintology and stranger. This has become a discussion on the nature of a side project in a serialized universe. That's cool. Let me recast the question this way: Even though Stranger deserves its own "feel" in the aesthetic sense, is it acceptable to create a less believable reality knowing parts of which must inevitably reoccur in the quintology?

I feel alot of the power of AO and AE is that the universe is fully workable. The gameplayer almost never steps back and says, "ok, why the hell is that possible?" The same can't be said of MO (but that's forgiven, because that wasn't on purpose.)

[caracal]

erm...well, again, I dont think OW is about plausability....I mean, you'll never be able to explain how abe went into a door....and then the camera made wild twists and turns..and then you find yourself with abe stepping out of the door atleast a 100 meters away

or why even deserts in AO and AE seemed to have almost no plains, and there were always one-mud-wide cliffs for abe to walk on no matter where he was, and then in MO the world was constructed more normaly.

I didnt really care about that then, and I dont really care about the stranger vaccum now, because they're things that are there because it's just a game, I just want OW to keep it's own distinctive look...like it did before.

[Esus]

I mean, you'll never be able to explain how abe went into a door....and then the camera made wild twists and turns..and then you find yourself with abe stepping out of the door atleast a 100 meters away

or why even deserts in AO and AE seemed to have almost no plains, and there were always one-mud-wide cliffs for abe to walk on no matter where he was

All very plausible and possible.

[paramiteabe]

PA, the first line is quite elegant. I couldn't really make heads or tales of the rest of that paragraph, but I think I get you. But again, its the last line that deserves the attention, right? Outrageous. What exactly do you mean by that? I worry that OI have decided to get really out there with the goofy side of their endeavours at the expense of the fidelity of the Oddworld universe.

I originally created this thread meaning to talk about the disconnect between the ethos behind the quintology and stranger. This has become a discussion on the nature of a side project in a serialized universe. That's cool. Let me recast the question this way: Even though Stranger deserves its own "feel" in the aesthetic sense, is it acceptable to create a less believable reality knowing parts of which must inevitably reoccur in the quintology?

I feel alot of the power of AO and AE is that the universe is fully workable. The gameplayer almost never steps back and says, "ok, why the hell is that possible?" The same can't be said of MO (but that's forgiven, because that wasn't on purpose.)

When I say outragious I mean compare the design of Abe vs Munch and all the designs in his game, then compare those two designs with Stranger and you will notice the characters are starting to become simply outragious in design. Abe or a simple Mudokon is by far a pretty normal design. Munch is a little bit more crazy because of the one leg and then Stranger is completely unexpected he looks more normal as oppose to strange and unusual. A centaur like being whome really has two forms that lives in a very western influenced corner of Mudos that is inhabited by Salimanders and chicken like beings and reptiles hense the outlaws. For so many years now we have always known that Oddworld is a very deverse, vast, and dark world filled with danger. And that we have only begun to scratch the surface with the games that are out already right? But the one thing that we as the fans have often failed to understand or notice, is that every game will be extremely different from the previous. Ok I take that back we know that every game is going to be different than the previous ones but we have it instilled in our mindes that every game is going to have the same feel as AO and AE because of that when we think of Oddworld we think of AO and AE. Thats why I believe we get disappointed with the latist game because it looks different or too goofy for the AO and AE feel. Theres nothing wrong with that but remember this OWI knows more about Oddworld than we do and for us to dictate what exist in the Oddworld universe and to say that it has to have the AO and AE feel is out of our league. We are too worked up into AO and AE that it causes us to totally miss the point of Oddworld.

[Esus]

I disagree. Centaurs are not outragious; they're in a whole number of video games and mythologies across the world. Salamanders are much less outragious that older designs, and the scuba toads are just toad-like blobs. Strangers initial design is not outrageous. He's a humaoid with slightly more gorrilla-like arms and a clint-eastwood lion-esque face. Munch is incredibly outrageous compared to these, an amphibion one legged strange faced creature. Glukkons are incredibly different, as are sligs.
These new designs are certainly not more original than older ones.

We're not getting disappointed with it because it's gameplay is different to the original games, but we are with some of the character designs. How are humaoid chickens more outrageous than a three legged, four armed, large headed alien-freak vykker?

But yes, I am personally disappointed by the 'goofy-ness'. This has nothing to do with me dictating what OI should put into their games, but more to do with my personal opinion on designing new and original characters.

[paramiteabe]

True to an extent original ideas are a must but why can't something that resembals a chicken exist on Oddworld? Does it have to only be alien lifeforms with huge heads or tenticals or what not? Once again Oddworld has its deverse lifeforms.

[Esus]

I'm not saying that a chicken has no place on Oddworld, I'm saying that I don't find the clakker design to be as inspirational, original and interesting as the old designs.

[Statikk HDM]

It does seem to be going commercial if not exactly "selling out." Its more humorous the designs are less repulseive and more native-looking excetera.