Cloneing Cattle or any other kind of live stock for food! Is it better or for worse!

[TheRaisin]

Okay, point one, I admit that it would appear that Dictionary.com--which I just used earlier today, that site rocks!--says you can spell meant mean't. So it would appear that Death and I are both wrong, or both right, depending on how you look at it. Whatever. This thread has gotten so fscking convoluted, I can barely make out up and down anymore.
Point two: Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. Always has been. So if you are Catholic, you are Christian. It amazes me that I have no religion, yet I know more about how Christianity works than any of my friends, even the devout one who says that Darwin was an idiot and we were created by God--the same one I mentioned in earlier, the paranoid one that's so many -ists, I can't even count them.
Point three: paramiteabe, you say you're not one of those "crazy Jesus freaks", but you sound pretty obsessed. I quote: "...The Creator the highest of all beings will bring to us punishment through our daily lives." That's pretty religiously crazy by my standards. So is referring to God as "the high one", which should be capitalized, by the way.
Point four: The madness! It's coming! I guarantee this thread will go the way of "Ask a Stupid Question" and the other page-crunching juggernauts! And the worst part is, it's not even on-topic anymore! Even this post was a complete waste of space! Please, for the love of...! No, can't use that. How about this: Please, for the love of corn dogs, let this thread die!!!!

[Codek]

TheRaisin, I don't mind people having their say, or voicing their opionions, but what really pisses me off in threads like this, is when some high-and-mighty twixhead comes along in all his shining retardedness declaring that a thread should die.

What if I were to tell you that I think you should die? Would you just run out to your kitchen, get a knife and stab yourself like I asked? No of course not.

Besides making me wish there were some mutation of Godwin's law which described the comparison of flippant ascii-typists to the takers of a human life, (because then I would probably do that less) your post is somewhat hyperbolic.

Despite making a point out of everything in a desperate bid to sum up and bring a close to the discussion, you're taking it way farther than you need to. This is just a light hearted "what if" discussion and you're whinging about its' meandering subject as if it's some loss to you because you can no longer figure out who or what to rant at.

Quite bluntly, who cares? You can talk and speculate about how this thread will die all you want, but in the end you will just be perpetuating a mindless problem that plagues this forum like a plague. Ending threads with speculation on how the thread will end is probably the most ironic and irritating direction any subjective discussion can take. You can easily ruin a perfectly good debate with such short sighted moaning, and you'll probably go out defending it too. In fact, the majority of locked threads are probably due to such insane side tracking.

Why not just let it die through lack of interest? That sure beats the hell outta making the ending of a thread a discussion.

[paramiteabe]

There is nothing wrong with cloneing animals because they don't have souls.
Or wait a minuite to be politically correct they don't have a soul like us as human beings.

Back to topic.

[Jacob]

'to be politically correct'

Never be Politically Correct. I loathe PC people. The sort that when you say "Nigger", "Coon", "Jungle Bunny" as an obvious joke you're brandished as 'Racist'. I'm not a Racist. I just make jokes about black people getting uptight about these words and make jokes about the KKK/Racist people.

People have even brandished the Morcombe joke Racist and that's what really fudges me off the most. The joke isn't Racist. The joke's in bad taste. There's a large, pulsating difference between bad taste and Racism.

Also, it is quite biased. A black guy calls a white person a 'Limey' and people laugh. A white guy calls a black person a 'Nigger' and suddenly there's a huge uproar of "RACIST!! YOU SHOULD DIE, YOU'RE SCUM!!". Ugh. F*cking c*nts.

[Volsung]

Again, I'm a little lost. I'm assuming that most people here are using a judeo-christian definition of a soul, so it might be that, but why exactly is it that Humans (which are animals) can have souls, but animals cannot. Or if they do (as was alluded above) why are their souls considered so different? I'm just missing the qualifications, I suppose.

That said, I think that my only opposition to eating cloned meat refers way back in this thread to when it was pointed out that most clones are sickly. This is true. We have in no way perfected cloning, so it seems kind of dangerous to switch over to it for our food at this stage. Then again, I have the same type of argument against Genetically modified food. I'm not against it exactly, but it hasn't been tested enough for me to trust it. But that won't stop the multinationals from selling it to us.

[Statikk HDM]

Yeah, Volsung, who knows how clones are going to turn out. They could be disease-ridden for sure. I mean, look at Dolly, she was totally messed up and died after it lived around half of a sheep's normal lifespan. Also, what if some super disease arises from a botched cloning experiment and wipes out a fifth of the world's meat supply. Oops. I know KFC doesn't actually clone chickens, but many businesses have their livestock physically altered(beakless chickens to avoid pecking and infighting, for instance), frightened and filled with all sorts of flavor-affecting hormones from being crowded, and pumped up with antibiotics and all sorts of crazy chemicals that they hardly resemble animals anymore.

[Codek]

but many businesses have their livestock physically altered(beakless chickens to avoid pecking and infighting, for instance), frightened and filled with all sorts of flavor-affecting hormones from being crowded, and pumped up with antibiotics and all sorts of crazy chemicals that they hardly resemble animals anymore.

Sorry, but that's bullshit. You're just making things up now.

[Statikk HDM]

No, I'm not making it up. Major suppliers of chicken such as Tyson and Purdue use "beakless" chickens. The beak is partially removed without anaesthia. The reason that this is done is that birds are stored in very small cages at about 3 to six chickens a cage. This leads to psychosis-induced "pecking sprees." The birds are also fed hormones and antibiotics to keep them "healthy" and ready to lay eggs all day long if they are layers. If they're broilers they are fed massive amounts of hormones, antibiotics, and grain mixed up with ground up chicken so that they become fat and ready to eat in less than 2 months. Just because I happen to know how a factory farm works doesn't make me a liar.

[Codek]

There are no such things as "beakless chickens". Without a beak, a chicken cannot eat, cannot prune its' feathers, and cannot breathe properly. It would die within a few days. So yes, it is bullshit.

"When you find yourself in a hole, it might be indicated to stop digging."

[paramiteabe]

Again, I'm a little lost. I'm assuming that most people here are using a judeo-christian definition of a soul, so it might be that, but why exactly is it that Humans (which are animals) can have souls, but animals cannot. Or if they do (as was alluded above) why are their souls considered so different? I'm just missing the qualifications, I suppose.

That said, I think that my only opposition to eating cloned meat refers way back in this thread to when it was pointed out that most clones are sickly. This is true. We have in no way perfected cloning, so it seems kind of dangerous to switch over to it for our food at this stage. Then again, I have the same type of argument against Genetically modified food. I'm not against it exactly, but it hasn't been tested enough for me to trust it. But that won't stop the multinationals from selling it to us.

The reason why humans are different is because we have dyminion over the animals. The animals are not like us. We may be animals aswell but we are very different from animals in the sense of being not wild life. Mainly the proper termonology is wildlife.

[Statikk HDM]

DEBEAKING EXSISTS! Stop calling me a liar, you fascist asshole. The beak is partially amputated by an electric device that resembles a guillotine. Here is a link with a pictures and an article about it.
http://www.upc-online.org/merchandis...factsheet.html.
Or you could simply use an online search engine and find literally hundreds of sites on debeaking. If you don't like it, **** you.

[Volsung]

PA, though you decreased your post, I suppose I'll respond anyway.
First off, I doubt it is possible for us to agree on this since our views appear to be fundamentally very different. Nevertheless, I'll state my case.

"Humans have dominion over animals." I cannot argue that we do not subjugate and use animals for our own purposes. However, if the point you're making is that Humans are meant to have dominion over animals, I cannot agree. I see no factual evidence that humans are in any significant way masters of animals. You may argue that we have mastered cats and dogs, but when we look closer, this is no different than the relationship between an elephant and those birds that clean elephants. It is a symbiotic (almost parasitic) relationship. You may quote scripture. For that I have no argument, as all religions and psuedosciences are non-falsifiable. This isn't to say that they are right or wrong; simply that the main points cannot be disproven, due to the inherent vagueness.

"We are very different from animals" This is in only one sense true. All other known animals have definite niches which they are able to subsist within. They are given particular defense mechanisms and abilities to directly suit their lifestyle. We are as of yet the only animal which must rely upon its ability to reason abstractly to live. Possibly dolphins do this as well. I fail to see the relevance having a larger brain affords us spiritually, other than letting us recognize that we have a soul. Surely all that's happened is that we've recognized we have souls, and "wildlife" has not?

It is likely that I'm too close-minded to see why only Humans would have significant souls, but I think the most telling example of our equal footing with other creatures is our handling of the earth. If we were truly meant to dominate the world, would we be destroying it?

I agree with Statikk about the animal cruelty action. Its always good to raise awareness of procedural problems. Especially those with potentially harmful side-effects. Who knows what all those antibiotic, beakless, cannibalistic, internally bleeding chickens do to us after ingestion? My position remains as before More and better testing must be done before cloning can enter the food production staples.

[Statikk HDM]

People want to eat cloned animals? Man, if we can't even raise the animals that are around in humane ways what do you think will happen to the clones.
PA: Although humans have dominion over the earth they are supposed to be very careful and mindful of the environment. Being against the environment is basically a sin because we are supposed to manage it for all living things. Messing with the environment is breaking one of God's rules, essentially. Breaking of God's Rule=Sin.

[paramiteabe]

Now comes my point we may have diminion over the animals but we use the power the wrong way. In otherwords diminion over animals we take for granted. And that is what needs to be changed. Its ok to slaughter animals and clone them as long as there is a purpose behind it. If we do it for fun and game then its wrong.

[Esus]

Well, according to you, PA, We have souls because we have dominion over animals, and they don't because we have dominion over them, so if they don't have souls, why the hell shouldn't we take them for granted?
They're there, we can use them to increase human productivity in a number of ways - especially in the current modern society.

[paramiteabe]

No we don't have diminion over animals because we have souls. We have diminion over animals because we were put on this earth with that right.

Notice you said "use them for human productivity." That is a lagit purpose to use animals for slaughter and other things. I am talking about hunting them for game. That is what I mean when I say takeing them for granted is being wrong. Do you understand?

So we use animals the right way as long as its for a purpose and not for game. People whome hunt animals for game thats when its wrong.

And the whole thing on the soul just got way out of context here. So I am not going to get into that anymore. It was too complicated to explan it because the theory is just way out there.

[Esus]

But PA, using your logic, if we were put on this planet to have dominion over animals, surely that gives us the right to use them as we will, for fun during hunts for example?
After all, according to you, they have no souls, so what does it matter if we take them for granted?

[paramiteabe]

It all depends on what you see to be right and wrong ya know? I am just stateing what I believe is right and what I believe is wrong. All that goes into issues of free will and such. We choose to do these things even if they are wrong or not we still choose to live like that.

[Jacob]

On the debeaking note, they have also been cases of Featherless Chickens. Which do look kind of amusing. Bless them.

[Esus]

I know you're giving your opinions, but, as a unrelated point, you could not make them seem like facts, and I was only asking why you think that. I'm very aware of you giving your free opinion.

...so, PA:
'what does it matter if we take them for granted?'

[Codek]

portion of a hen's beak

beakless chickens

hardly resemble animals anymore

Statikk, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you're being misleading. You had to change your story three times before it even came close to anything in that link you posted.

you fascist asshole

I'm a facist because I find you misleading and because I am sceptical of people who make wild claims about KFC using cloned chickens? I wouldn't call myself a facist, I'd call myself cautious and reasonable.

It's a widely known fact that people who dislike fast food chains make up rediculous stories about their products in an attempt to put people off it. They think that they are educating the masses of the horrors these 'sinister' companies hide, but instead they are misleading them with misinformation and lies.

If KFC do use chickens that go through these processes that are apparantly so "awful", how come KFCs customers aren't dropping dead from anything other than high cholesterol? Why make some big stink about it if the food is perfectly healthy?

[Mac the Janitor]

We dissected a chicken in Biology today.

It was fun to pull on the muscles and make it flap and stuff.

[paramiteabe]

I know you're giving your opinions, but, as a unrelated point, you could not make them seem like facts, and I was only asking why you think that. I'm very aware of you giving your free opinion.

...so, PA:
'what does it matter if we take them for granted?'

It doesn't matter if we take them for granted but as another point it all comes down to the individual if he or she wants to go and do that. Haveing the free will to do anything as we please, does not dictate on whats right and wrong to us. We as the individual have to figure that out for ourselves. If you believe hunting and killing animals for game is a right thing to do then in reality theres nobody stopping you. Now the one thing we have to remember is that there is a consequence for every thing we do and wether that consequence is good or bad, or happens in the here and now, or 20 years down the road is the unknown.

Oh on the KFC note they are planning on makeing roasted chicken which is good because roasted chicken is much more healthier than fried. Infact a lot fast food chains are starting to get into a more health food conscence. Mainly a lot of fast food chains are starting to lower carbs. You got McDonalds with this new salid thing and less oils when they cook their meat and fries and Burger King with their bunless burger. They are starting to lower carbohydrates which is a better sign for fast food. And believe it or not bread is not good for you.

[TheRaisin]

This whole "carbs are the enemy" thing is pretty odd. I mean, fat and cholestrol are still there, folks, and they're no less worse than they were before. Seriously, I think if I tried the whole Atkins diet I would put on like ten pounds. Carbs are what I need. I'm always lazy because I'm always tired because I have a really low metabolism, so I think if I ate like a pound of sugar in the morning I could probably jog ten miles. Heh heh. Maybe I'll test that theory. What was I saying? Oh yeah. Carbs are my friends.

Sorry about that, Death. Um, please let the record show that I was dramatizing this whole thing shearly for my own amusement. I guess I should make it more clear when I'm being serious and when I'm joking. I am trying to be serious now. I think my problem is that I have fewer constraints when talking to people online because they don't know me, so I can kind of be a bit more free about expressing my opinions. Unfortunately, I'm so highly opinionated that I can kind of come off as... well, an idiot. Or a jerk. But that's really not what I'm like. So... sorry.

Volsung, are you sure you're 19? You sound smarter than most of the adults I know. Then again, were idiocy the norm, I suppose even a mildly intelligent person would sound brilliant. Anyway, I find your views extremely... um... good, and presented in a very professional manner. This is what I like about the web. I can ignore morons, should I so choose, and meet people as intelligent as I.

Burger King is selling bunless burgers? I can't think of any words that can express the feeling I'm feeling right now. It's somewhere between disdain and extreme amusement. Or a combination of the two. People are actually going to go to a fast food joint and pay money for a bunless burger? Heh. Heh heh heh. Ah ha ha ha ha! Eeh-hee hee hee hee hee hee, oh, this is too funny! Just when I thought America could get no stupider! Waitasec... is it stupider or more stupid? Damn.