A sincere apology concerning the religious debate--

sodd · #1 10-29-2001, 01:36 AM

The name of this topic says it all...

I will not bombard you with my beliefs anymore.

You're a killer if you kill a killer--so I'm forcing myself to say, "Sorry."

I shouldn't have sunk so low as to say what I said.....

Sorry Oddbodd and everyone else....
Especially Syd...

Because Oddworldian should be a refuge from insults and misplaced anger...

ODDBODD · #2 10-29-2001, 08:15 AM

please don't apologise for your beliefs sodd, nobody should change your beliefs unless they are negative. I was only flamming you because of what you said a bout god. Thats all. I'm sorry too

*gives sodd a table*

sodd · #3 10-29-2001, 03:30 PM

Hey... Thanks for the table..

Yah I shouldn't of said some of the things I did...

But I'm not apologizing for what I believe in.... nono

Conzumah · #4 10-29-2001, 04:50 PM

i found it interesting that when you stated your opinions (i.e. there is no god) as fact and got flames, while anyone who believes in god and says that god is real gets supported. i think the fact that i can't say "if there is a god he/she/it's a sadistic peice of shit" without everyone flaming me is wrong. this is what i believe. you believe that there is a god and that he/she/it is a god of love, and when you say this, then you don't get flamed. so i support what sodd said and hate that he gave up on what he was trying to get across.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #5 10-29-2001, 08:39 PM

Cozmuzah, your not going to live a happy life by having so much negativity to everything.

Sodd, I apologize to. I forgive you. We were not forcing you to change, I was just mad on what you said about God. When someone insults God like that, It upsets me sooooo bad. Because God has been good to me and I could of been dead today. But if someone talks about the God who saved me, I get pissed. I know you have a different belief, but be careful when you insult someone's God or goddesses or whatever. In other countries, if you do that, they can kill you and that would totally suck. But anyways, I forgive you and I hope this can just fall behind us.

Joe the Intern · #6 10-29-2001, 09:16 PM

hes not being negative. you think evrytime someone has a different opinion it is negative. he was just expressing what he believed. im getting tired of seeing you say that so many people are negative.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #7 10-29-2001, 10:57 PM

:

Originally posted by Joe the Intern:
hes not being negative. you think evrytime someone has a different opinion it is negative. he was just expressing what he believed. im getting tired of seeing you say that so many people are negative.

No I don't. When someone has a different opinion I don't always think it's negative. What have you been smoking? it was just how he said it. You would think I was negative if I said it like that also so don't even try it. Joe, you need to stop accusing me of thinking that because you don't know what I'm thinking! You don't know what negativity is when it bit you. I'm sick of you. You are starting to become a complete ass and get mad at everything I say. You need to learn how to forgive and get the stick out of your ass and quit holding grudges on me. You are starting to piss me off. Atlease some people have the courage to apologize and admit that they are not right all the time like you do.

Anyways, back to topic. Scratch that first reply Coz. My fingers slipped when I typed my bad Coz I'm sorry I was wrong. what I meant to say was..

So you don't think that flaming sodd was wrong. Okay. If someone talks about someones else's religion in a bad way, of course they are going to get upset. I know that God is a God of love, but I will get mad if someone called him like bad stuff because I know it's not true and he's my God. But if I flamed, I apologize also. I'm glad that you are apologizing sodd. *yawn* I go night night

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

sodd · #8 10-30-2001, 11:29 AM

Just so you know--

the main reason why I'm apologizing is because--you're a killer if you kill a killer...
It means that if I do the same as all the christians/catholics and try and convert others--then I'm just as bad as they are...
And I'd rather not be..

So I am apologizing...

You won't ever see me going door to door trying to tell people how they should live their lives....

Joe the Intern · #9 10-30-2001, 03:21 PM

of **** it! ive had enough with youre shit pinky! im sorry. i apologize. but from now on, i will just ignore you to prevent future problems from breaking out between us.

Lampion · #10 10-30-2001, 04:18 PM

He is not your God, Pinky. He is the God of everybody, even of those who don't believe him, Sodd is no exception.

Lampion · #11 10-30-2001, 04:20 PM

He is not your God, Pinky. He is the God of everybody, even of those who don't believe him, Sodd is no exception.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #12 10-30-2001, 06:32 PM

I know that he's everyone's God. Have you every heard the songs "My God is an awesome God?" or "Jesus Loves Me?" You can say my God. People say my jesus. Just like you would say, my friend or my grandma. When you know that she has other grand-children so yeah, I can say that he's my God. I'm not referring that he's all to myself.

Sodd, I think I know what you mean. If you don't wanna be that way that's okay, because who wants to be a person who tries to convert you to something, even if they have to kill you. Not all christians go knocking on doors trying to convert people. It's a stereotypical thing.

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

sodd · #13 10-30-2001, 11:07 PM

No no I know that....

But hey--every christian I meet eventually tries to convince me..

You're all bible salesmen on a small scale...
And there should be no shame in that...

If I had the guts I'd convert christians into followers of the evolutionary theories..... But most of you are defensive of YOUR god.
(not mine Lampion)

NOW--let us act like the semi-mature young adults we can pretend we are,
and discuss this in a less, aggressive manner.

I have a question--
if god creates everything,
why would he create people who sin?
Merely because hell needs to be occupied?

Friday, from Robinson Caruso's diary, once asked, "Why do you bother resisting temptation when your god is all-forgiving?"

ODDBODD · #14 10-31-2001, 02:33 AM

sodd your question is fair but is easily answered, gods does not create people who sin. He creates people with free-will, which is gods greatest gift. People who sin do it out of their own free will and temptation. That is god's great plan. To put people to the test over their problems.

"God creates man, man suffers enourmous amounts of pain, man dies"

Everything that happens in your life has a meaning. EVERYTHING! And god watches and tests you on this.
Hell is only for people who condemn great sin/s that cannot be forgiven. God is very forgiving by the things that you do, but if you kill another man. You are known as evil in god's heart. If you realise what you have done is wrong and regret what you have done, then and only then will god forgive you.

I am not trying to convert anyone here, i am just trying to explain to you people that God is good and not to hate or curse something that you do not understand. I could be wrong on everything that i believe in but i have faith.
It's not what you believe in it's how you live your life!

Conzumah · #15 10-31-2001, 02:44 PM

To Pinky and Odd:
okay, i have a question. if god knows everything past, present, and future, then he already knows whether or not we're going to hell. so what is a logical reason for him to test us, if we're already predestined to heaven or hell?

to sodd:
do you believe in any sort of higher power, and if so why. if not, then why not.

Lampion · #16 10-31-2001, 03:18 PM

Just a linguistic observation: when you refers to something as "my", its an attempt to specify that subject. When I say "my grandma", I'm probably talking to someone who is not her grand-son, and this person has his own grandma, otherwise, I'd say just "grandma". So, when I say "my God" to you, I'm supposing there is another God who is not mine, or my God is different of yours, or even that my god is not yours too.

Regarding the question Sodd asked:

God created all the spirits simple and ignorants, not good neither evil. All of them started a jorney through learning in order to become a pure spirit, an "angel", if you like.

Through time, and because of different circunstances, some spirits learn faster, and other ones not, because all of them have free-will to make decision by tehir own.

Eventually, all the spirits God created will become pure, and all will achieve "heaven", but some will suffer a lot of pain before that, because of their own choices during thier journey.

God is all-forgiving, but your consciousness is not.

Oddworlder · #17 10-31-2001, 05:59 PM

It's quite instructional when looking at posts like these and looking at the events in the world.

Just an observation.

FuzzyFuzzle · #18 10-31-2001, 06:56 PM

I have a couple of questions for Conzumah:

When did you get to go to OI? That is really cool that you got to go. Also will the Abe being crucified FMV be in an Oddworld game? If so which one? I know Lorne is all edgy and stuff, but I'd like to think mocking others' beliefs is where he'd draw the line. I also wouldn't think it would be good for OI as a whole. Many people would probably get angry and not buy anymore Oddworld games.

Conzumah · #19 11-01-2001, 12:07 AM

hey fuzzy, go back and read my post again. it's so horrible (abe being sodomized and all) that it certainly couldn't be true. i'm sorry to have mislead you, i was actually poking fun at pinky. i have not been to the OI offices, nor is there any FMV of abe being crucified that i know of. it was a joke.

FuzzyFuzzle · #20 11-01-2001, 12:49 AM

That's why I was so horrified...Oh well. Don't feel bad. I'm just gullible

sodd · #21 11-03-2001, 11:09 AM

Explain to me--guys,

why we are so much like our parents?

If our dad was an alcoholic, there is a large chance that we will be as well....

It's genetically inherited...

Some people have the will power to resist, other people are BORN WITHOUT IT...
Fatness runs in people's families... greed...
And it isn't merely because of upbringing..
It's in your chromosomes, gene weakness...
Take a science course--it's all there!
And why would God do such a thing as that?

Ps. No I don't believe in a higher power, althought nature can be regarded that way. I believe in evolution, because I just found the evidence to be more convincing...

Sydney · #22 11-03-2001, 11:14 AM

Can I please move this to Off-Topic Discussion, since it has little to do with Oddworld?

Danny · #23 11-03-2001, 02:22 PM

i see no reason why anyone should refrain from trying to persuade others to join their religion. the way i see it, everybody is entitled to their beliefs, and they are also entitled to express them, and attempt to convert others.

i don't mind it when christians attempt to convert me to christianity, i actually enjoy it, as it gives me an insight into why they believe what they do. equally, i feel justified in trying to convert them into believing what i believe because, in the end, once they have all the facts, it is their decision what they believe.

one thing i DO object to is the indoctrination of children. i believe that parents are fundamentally mistreating their children by bringing them up as any particular religion, as that partially removes that element of choice. children should be given the facts, but not persuaded to believe any particular thing.

Lampion · #24 11-03-2001, 06:24 PM

Yes, sydney, you should move this topic to Off-Topic forum

I agree, Rettick. I was raised as a catholic(I'm not anymore). My my current spiritual beliefs I developed while I was a teenager, when I was aware enough to decide by myself what I should believe or not.

I don't have any problems talking about religion, specially with people who has diferent beliefs of mine. Actually, I think it is a very healthy practice.

So.... back to the discussion:

Sodd, you didn't comment about my answer to your question...

You stated "I don't believe in a higher power, althought nature can be regarded that way. I believe in evolution, because I just found the evidence to be more convincing..."
Could you please complete the sentence?

Personally, I think evolution is a fantastic theory(actually it is a well known fact), and the late discoveries of the XX century, in genetic (DNA, cromossomes, ...) finally proved the hereditarian mechanics. What exactly this fact has to do with the existence or not of a higher being, such as God?
(those were not rethorical questions, I'd really want to hear your answers

)

So, let's discuss this subject as young mature people we pretend we are...

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #25 11-04-2001, 07:50 PM

I thought you were Christian Lampion.

Sydney · #26 11-05-2001, 01:46 AM

:

Originally posted by Lampion:
You stated "I don't believe in a higher power, althought nature can be regarded that way. I believe in evolution, because I just found the evidence to be more convincing..."
Could you please complete the sentence?

Sorry to butt in and answer for Sodd, but that sentence seems complete the way it is. Or at least it seems that way to me.

My opinion: Evolution is pretty much accepted these days, the only people who continue to campaign against it are religious people (generally fundamentalist Baptists) claiming that it contradicts their beliefs. But the fact that evolution causes the diversity of life on our planet doesn't declare anything about the truth of creators or religious beliefs. Many Christians do believe in evolution, but it's a shame that the most vocal are those who are in fierce opposition, bringing ridicule to their religion.

Somewhat on-topic, here's an interesting fact about Mitochondrial DNA. For those who don't know, mitochondria are tiny organelles that are important for cell metabolism. Mitochondria have their own DNA. Mitochondrial DNA mutates at a predictable rate, so the accumulation of differences in mDNA between two organisms can be measured, allowing for the time at which the two organisms diverged from each other to be calculated. The fact that mDNA is only passed down through the mother allows for easier tracing.

If your grandmother's sister's daughter's children had their mDNA analysed and compared to your own, the time at which the two of you diverged could be calculated! The same technique applies to humans and apes, which also measured roughly how long ago it was when Homo sapiens diverged from the common ancestor we share with chimpanzees and other primates.

Lampion · #27 11-05-2001, 04:04 AM

To Pinky: I consider myself a christian. The fact that I support the evolution theory isn't a contradiction to my spiritual beliefs.

To Sydney: I could understand the meaning of Sodd's sentence (he probably is saying that the evidences of the evolution theory are more convincing than the existance of a higher being), but I just wouldn't be accused of make a wrong interpretation of his(?) words, that's why I asked him to be explicit.

Interesting information, about the mitochondrial DNA, I've never heard about that before.

Oddworlder · #28 11-06-2001, 03:11 AM

:

Originally posted by Sydney:

:

Originally posted by Lampion:
"I don't believe in a higher power, althought nature can be regarded that way. I believe in evolution, because I just found the evidence to be more convincing..."
Could you please complete the sentence?

I really think it's a complete thought although the word convicing is more absolute than I am. Absolute proof connecting us to the apes just isn't here yet. It's comming but the line is broken during a epoch or two

:

My opinion: Evolution is pretty much accepted these days, the only people who continue to campaign against it are religious people (generally fundamentalist Baptists) claiming that it contradicts their beliefs. But the fact that evolution causes the diversity of life on our planet doesn't declare anything about the truth of creators or religious beliefs. Many Christians do believe in evolution, but it's a shame that the most vocal are those who are in fierce opposition, bringing ridicule to their religion.

Those who cling to the idea of God I found need external approval for what they do. Personally it's enough for me to treat others as I would have them treat ME. In that way I violate my own sense of self if I don't live a morale existence. I'm responsible for my action kind of thing.

:

Somewhat on-topic, here's an interesting fact about Mitochondrial DNA. For those who don't know, mitochondria are tiny organelles that are important for cell metabolism. Mitochondria have their own DNA. Mitochondrial DNA mutates at a predictable rate, so the accumulation of differences in mDNA between two organisms can be measured, allowing for the time at which the two organisms diverged from each other to be calculated. The fact that mDNA is only passed down through the mother allows for easier tracing.

If your grandmother's sister's daughter's children had their mDNA analysed and compared to your own, the time at which the two of you diverged could be calculated! The same technique applies to humans and apes, which also measured roughly how long ago it was when Homo sapiens diverged from the common ancestor we share with chimpanzees and other primates.[/B]

I heard of this and the first thing that came to mind is that the world tends to be a 'paterlinical'(is that the right spelling?) society. Only a few 'materalinical' society in the world. Yet science shows you can't trace your fathers side except by name.

Interesting....

Danny · #29 11-06-2001, 07:39 PM

Actually, there is something that is passed down from father to child, like the mRNA, but not the same [I don't know exactly what it is], and they can use that to trace descent in the male line as well, so between the two of them they can now make a full family tree. That is how scientists claim to have traced the "Mitonchonrial Eve" and "Mitochondrial Adam".

Sydney, could you tell us how long it is since we diverged? It sounds like a piece of trivia worth knowing...

Another piece of trivia: Chimpanzees and Gorrillas are more closely related to Humans than they are to each other...

Gluk Schmuck · #30 11-06-2001, 08:08 PM

:

Originally posted by Lampion:
Just a linguistic observation: when you refers to something as "my", its an attempt to specify that subject. When I say "my grandma", I'm probably talking to someone who is not her grand-son, and this person has his own grandma, otherwise, I'd say just "grandma". So, when I say "my God" to you, I'm supposing there is another God who is not mine, or my God is different of yours, or even that my god is not yours too.

well, the way i figure it is that God is individual in everyone's own mind because unless you've seen God you don't know what God looks like - therefore not only God's image will change, but also eveything about God is constantly changing in people's minds (due to all sorts of things that happen)...
so, i do belive she is right in calling God her's...because no 2 Gods in people's minds are identical...i also doubt that 2 Gos in the same mind would be identical (but's that's off-topic)
oh, and she may belive in a different eligion to you (that explantion took a bit less explaining)

(sorry about the lack of relative pro-nouns, but i don't know what God's relative pro-noun is)

--

it seems it doesn't take much to turn a religious comment-based appology into a science lecture, albeit a very jumbled-up one about several different things at the same time