Human cloning: Good or bad?

[Black Dragon]

While watching the news this evening, I heard an interesting report on the fact that scientists have just successfully cloned a human embryo. The good uses of it are for medical purposes such as creating cells that are lost through illness and various other things like that. However, this can be abused and be used for creating actual living replicas of a human being.

If they do actually begin cloning humans, do you think it would be a good thing or a bad thing? I thought this would be a good topic for discussion.

[Steve]

I personaly think it's fine IF they make no mistakes whatsoever. they are not replicas of people they could act very different look very different ect. also people could clone themselves to be embryos then used for stem cell research without as many moral dillemias. of course if someone does mess up the media and public would chew them to bits and the people that did it would never find work again and anyone else who would try human cloning would go out of buissiness.

[Mudokon_Shaman]

As long as they don't clone Pauly Shore, then I don't have any qualms with it.

- Shaman

[Steve]

this is a recent article from my local paper http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/853196.html

[General Drippik]

C L!!! I think that's a goooood idea! As long as you don't clone Bill Clinton, LOL!

[PinkHaired Mudokon CWR]

That news has been out like last friday! I think It has some ups and downs. Mostly down! I have some reasons why...

[Danny]

Personally, I fail to see the moral dilemma. I can see how it might be instinctively repugnant to some people, and I respect their views, but I fail to see what arguments could be put forward against it. The most convincing one I have heard is that people might consider their clones to be their property, but that is a Legal issue, not a Moral one, and can easily be solved by a simple Act of Parliament stating that they are not... Quite frankly, that particular argument is as ridiculous as saying that having children should not be allowed in case their parents consider them to be their propety...

There is also the issue of so-called 'Designer Babies', but this is really a separate issue, and concerns Genetic Engineering more than simple Cloning.

I am interested to see what people's objections are, though.

[Sydney]

I was disgusted at the outcry from moral crusaders across the world, declaring it as an act that destroys human dignity. One critic even spouted with especial pride: "it reduces us to farm animals."

We're not talking about human beings here, we're talking about clusters of cells! Perhaps if one of these moral crusaders had a family member die a long and painful death from cancer, they'd support such research. Some people ignorantly assume that cloning for body cells means replicating the entire organism for the purpose of removing the required organ. But we're talking about stem cells, long before there is even the faintest whisper of consciousness.

How dare these people condemn such harmless and helpful advances. It's makes me sick.

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Sydney ]

[Danny]

Here, Here/Hear, Hear [whichever it is - I've never seen it written down]. I agree totally with what you said, Sydney, but Em asked how we would feel if whole human beings were cloned. Personally, I can't see the problem there, either, as long as they are still Legally considered Human Beings, but I wondered if your views might change...?

[Sydney]

Yeah, I kind of side-stepped that question, didn't I?

I'm not sure why people would want to make genetic copies of humans. Is there a point to it? I vaguley recall hearing that it would be used with couples who have trouble conceiving, but surely there are other avenues one could take before cloning? I mean the child would be a genetic copy of his father.

[Danny]

I didn't mean to suggest that you'd sidesteeped the question, I was just curious to know your opinions...

Hmm... That's a good point - I hadn't actually considered why anyone would want to clone humans... To be honest, I can't really think of a reason why they'd want to. But then, I can't think of a reason why they shouldn't, either, so I guess it's their call...

[Sl'askia]

*grumble* i think it is a bad idea...for it would be just another way for humans to side-step natural selection...

[Steve]

sydney it could not be used to cure cancer but it could give us a better understanding of genetics which down the road could help or could make cells around where they cut out the cancer to heal the wounds mabey thats what you ment .....never mind

rettick people would clone humans just to prove they could and to feel powerful aka play god

Dragadon it is natural selection just a different kind it's the survival of the richest it would cost a LOT to clone a human (at least now).

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Steve ]

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Steve ]

[PinkHaired Mudokon CWR]

Gobbledygook! When if your clone starts to make everyone think that it's the perfect side of you, brainwahses your friends and makes an evil plot to takeover the universe!? Bwahahhahaha!

I don't think clones would be exactly like you. They can't. They would probably be like 96 or something percent.

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

[Sydney]

Steve, I was referring to cloning for work with stem cells, which could be used to produce an essential organ for a patient ravaged by cancer. I'm sure there are other dieases that this research could help, I just used cancer as an example.

[Sl'askia]

ah yes...but if we go by 'survival of the richest' the weak(genetic wise) wouldn't be weeded out like they should, further degrading the human gene pool.

[Steve]

it doesn't matter who's weaker it only matters WHO CAN SURVIVE if you can stop from dieing befor they have kids and let their kids grow up ecetera ecetera. unfortunatly almost all humans live to be that age (I personaly think the chinease law makes sense).

[Sl'askia]

that is my point. With all the advances in science and medicine...those who normally would not survive on there own are...you see what I am getting at? Our own intelligence is a double edged sword...on the one hand with are living longer healthier lives...on the other...those that wouldn't have survived if those advances didn't exist are surviving as well...degrading the gene pool with offspring that normal would not have been born.
(yes I do agree in a way with the chinese law...many people breed to much like rabbits...ugh)

[ODDBODD]

IF YOU ALL WANNA KNOW IF IT IS GOOD OR BAD WATCH "STAR WARS: ATTACK OF THE CLONES" AND SEE WHY

[tybie_odd]

I am totally pro-organ-growing! I don't fully understand what a stem cell does, but anything to help illness is a plus, I think!

And I don't care about natural selection! As far as that goes, I'd have died before my parents met!! If any of you oppose it, just imagine yourelves getting killed off by weak genes that weren't your fault, no one trying to help you when they could! Nightmare.... Still, I shouldn't talk. I have no concept of the negative side of the all-live-fantasy I hold so dear...perhaps that explains what might well be my foolish thinking.

and regarding moral issues -

Originally posted by Rettick:
Personally, I fail to see the moral dilemma. I can see how it might be instinctively repugnant to some people, and I respect their views, but I fail to see what arguments could be put forward against it. The most convincing one I have heard is that people might consider their clones to be their property, but that is a Legal issue, not a Moral one, and can easily be solved by a simple Act of Parliament stating that they are not... Quite frankly, that particular argument is as ridiculous as saying that having children should not be allowed in case their parents consider them to be their propety...

There is also the issue of so-called 'Designer Babies', but this is really a separate issue, and concerns Genetic Engineering more than simple Cloning.

I am interested to see what people's objections are, though.

Rettick -
I applaud your well-said opinion. It's something I've admired about you in all your posts...you tend to look at all sides of a story, while also expressing your unique opinion. Well, I just like your style I guess...

I think some of the moral problems are seated in religion. For example, I know a few people who believe that creating physical bodies is unfair as we do not yet know for sure how to create souls with which to provide them, and are afraid the clones will lack sense of self, artistic ability, etc.

To all -
Just thought I'd throw this in here, not sure how true it is or if it's just a gossipy rumor...

I've heard that human clones might someday be used as war soldiers. I guess without family and friends and all, they think that a clone's casualty (death) won't matter. Now that DOES sound wrong, to me...

PS -
If any of ya are interested, Oddworld.com has some great links to sites dealing with this kind of stuff. Check out
Savings and Clone
and
Bioneers

it's interesting...

[Molluck]

Hmmm.... If they made clones of people like....erm......Abe Babe what about if the clone was an opposite so our Abe babe would be good while the other bad so the bad clone would come on the forums and hack us all!
* hides in the corner of the room*
But..... as Syd said i could help people survive!
Oh! And Someone could replace a kidney etc. without needing another person to donate!

[Gluk Schmuck]

Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR:
I don't think clones would be exactly like you. They can't.

You are making sense Pinky. *shudders*
*Earth spins in opposite direction*
Because what people are like is a mixture of nature and nurture or, as i like to call it, genetics and environment. That's why identicle twins aren't identicle.


As for human stem-cell research, what's wrong with harvesting stuff from something with no conciousness? (As far as we know)
If creating a human to harvest cells is wrong then experimenting on adult rats is even worse.

As for the too many people on Earth already thing, what can you do about it?

[Molluck]

People could create a dragon!
They could cross komodo dragon cells with an eagles!
Also they could create a minatour!
A giant Rat monster! (human and rat cells and maybe an elephant!)

[Doug]

Originally posted by Dragadon:
With all the advances in science and medicine...those who normally would not survive on there own are...you see what I am getting at? Our own intelligence is a double edged sword...on the one hand with are living longer healthier lives...on the other...those that wouldn't have survived if those advances didn't exist are surviving as well...degrading the gene pool with offspring that normal would not have been born.

By this way of thinking, we should do away with vaccines so that people will develop immunities to diseases via standard evolutionary pressures. If we have medical technology (short of making people for spare parts) that makes a genetic "weakness" a non-issue, then there is no need to "weed out" these genetic weaknesses.

As pointed out by others above, genetic weaknesses only get weeded out when they are of such character as to cause death (or other inability to reproduce) before reproduction is accomplished. Most diseases that are the object of stem-cell research affect people in adulthood. And even for childhood diseases like cystic fibrosis, to illustrate my first point, what is the damage to the gene pool if we can cure the disease, even if the underlying genetic defect causing the disease remains?

Cloning living human beings is another matter altogether, and I cannot see a reason to do it. These would not be some kind of science fiction cybernetic organisms; they would be real people that just happened to have the same genetic makeup as an existing person. There are several other solutions for infertile couples, and if you think you're so great [rhetoric, not you, Drag] that you think the world will be a peachier place with another you in it, you need to get over yourself.

I think cloning is different than the case of a Florida couple that decided to have a baby several years ago because their daughter needed a bone marrow donor and there was no existing match. The couple had a one in four chance of having a baby that would match; the baby was a match and the bone marrow transplant was successful. Many people thought that it was wrong to have a baby under such circumstances, but I think it was different because the couple knew that they would love the new child just as much whether it could have been a donor or not. The older daughter survived and they remain a happy family.

So, are we cloning ourselves to make new family members, or just to make spare parts (I realize that some of this stem-cell research is intended to create organs without creating real people, which is fine by me)? If we are going to create clones of ourselves for spare parts, when your second kidney fails, are you going to insist that your clone give up the other one? What if his/her kidneys fail first?

Sorry . . . lost my head. I'll shut up now.

[Gluk Schmuck]

reasons for cloning whole humans:
1. harvest cells only found in very young humans

reasons for cloning parts of humans:
1. getting transplants easily, but if the failure is genetic the other organ will also fail eventually
2. executive toys, eg a clone of your own hand wired up to your arm so you can wave your hand about via remote control...urr maybe not...

reasons for 'designer babies':
1. get rid of genetic diseases
2. choose the baby's eye colour, height, blood type, et cetera add infinitum!

[Doug]

Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck:

reasons for cloning parts of humans:
1. getting transplants easily, but if the failure is genetic the other organ will also fail eventually

Not necessarily. Thousands of people ruin their livers with too much alcohol. Bad diet can wreck hearts. Drugs and toxic substances can damage organs, too. There are plenty of reasons to need replacement parts besides genetic problems.

[Black Dragon]

Well, I guess I'll add my two cents, and after this I won't say anything else.

We discussed this in my History Class today, and one of my classmates came up with a very good point. First, they are thinking of using this embryo to grow new cells and organs, right?

Well, you have to kill it to get at these cells, do you not?

This is not an animal embryo or anything of the sort (Even though animals do have rights): this is a living human being, or the beginning of one rather, just like you and I. We all started out as embryos, just like this one.

No one has the right to take your life away, even if you can save 27,000 people with your life. YOU are the only one that has the choice to take your life for that purpose. This embryo has no say in whether it gets to live its life or die for the benefit and life of others. No one has the right to take your life without your consent... not a scientist, not a doctor, not your parent, not the government. That's what I'm saying on the subject of this embryo idea.

On the subject of actually cloning a person and letting it live, I totally agree with Dragadon. It's the same concept as these new fertility drugs and "test-tube babies": it defeats the order of natural selection - leads to overpopulation: leads to destruction of mankind. Plus, a scientist is suddenly playing God: a big moral no-no to me.

Alright, there's my personal opinion. It's not meant to offend anyone else's or anything, that's just how I feel on the subject. Now I'm gonna get outta here. Ciao.

[Gluk Schmuck]

Originally posted by Black Dragon:
Well, you have to kill it to get at these cells, do you not?

This is not an animal embryo or anything of the sort (Even though animals do have rights): this is a living human being, or the beginning of one rather, just like you and I. We all started out as embryos, just like this one.

Which cells? Stem cells? It probably wouldn't need to be killed, but it may disable it.

The reason humans have special rights is that humans made the rules, and humans like humans. Humans like humans because they like their same species but what's to stop us extending our liking to all primates, all mammals, all animals even? (I want an answer to that)
On the basis of my last question we could quite easily extend the rights to all organisms. But with rights come responsibilities. I don't think imprisoning bears and snails would be a great idea though.

[Danny]

To Dragadon:

Evolution in Humans no longer occurs by Survival of the Fittest, it already occurs by Survival of the Best-Looking... Whether or not this is a good thing, it is a fact. Nothing will change if people are cloned - Natural Selection is already non-existant in Humans.

To add a little personal opinion, I think it is unfair that anybody is denied the opportunity to survive. I know your statements were in no way intended to suggest this, if we took them to their logical extreme, we would be killing people with genetic disorders at birth, so that their disorders are not passed on, and then we are back to Hitler's old ideas about Racial Purity...

To BD:

An honest question: Are you therefore against Abortion? Or, for that matter, Contraception? Because both of those advances prevent certain children who would have been born from being born...

It all depends on when you count a person as being a person. Foetuses are generally accepted as being people, but Embryos are merely collections of cells...

About the overpopulation issue - Why would the birth of a cloned human cause overpopulation any more than a normal birth would?

To those who seem to not know what cloning is, or maybe have watched too much Sci-Fi:

Clones are not meant to be identical to the original being. Genetically, they are the same, but like all living beings they must grow up. Presumably, they will not be brought up in identical conditions to that which their 'parents' were...

[glukkon_daniel]

It would be bad to clone the actual, living human himself. I mean, imagine this:

A baby is cloned successfully. No mess ups, everything went smoothly. The child is followed his entire life by reporters and news people. He is famous everywhere. Everyone knows his name and knows everyting about him. He goes through school with everyone always going up to him saying, "You're the guy who was cloned! What does it feel like?" and so on.

See what I'm saying?