Killing for curiousity: What makes a monster?

[Wings of Fire]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ll-shot-baboon

Animal welfare groups voiced outrage today after the restaurant critic AA Gill said he shot a baboon on safari "to get a sense of what it might be like to kill someone".

In a Sunday Times column, Gill recounted in detail how he shot the creature from 250 yards while hunting in "a truck full of guns and other blokes" in Tanzania. He said he felt the urge to be "a recreational primate killer" before shooting the animal through the lung.

"This is morally completely indefensible," said Steve Taylor, a spokesman for the League Against Cruel Sports. "If he wants to know what it like to shoot a human, he should take aim at his own leg. When man interacts with animals he owes a duty of care. If you are killing to eat, that is a different matter. This is killing for fun".

Gill wrote: "I took him just below the armpit. He slumped and slid sideways. I'm told they can be tricky to shoot: they run up trees, hang on for grim life. They die hard, baboons. But not this one. A soft-nosed .357 blew his lungs out."

Claire Bass, wildlife manager at the World Society for the Protection of Animals: "It's hard to say what's sadder – the unnecessary death of a healthy baboon or that he has so little regard for the life of another creature. The vast majority of visitors to the Serengeti have a fantastic time shooting with cameras, not guns. We condemn the killing and the crude portrayal of it as 'entertainment' in Gill's column."

Guy Norton, who studies the behaviour of baboons in Makumi National Park in Tanzania, said baboons are "sentient and feeling animals" and display similar characteristics to humans with strong parental bonds and sociable group behaviour.

"I can understand the repulsion people are feeling because it is hard to see why he would do this in the first place," said Norton. "I can understand it if there was a purpose, but what Gill is talking about is not responsible hunting."

He added that the animal described by Gill sounded like an olive baboon, which is not endangered.

Gill admitted he had no good reason for killing the animal. "I know perfectly well there is absolutely no excuse for this," he wrote. "There is no mitigation. Baboon isn't good to eat, unless you're a leopard. The feeble argument of culling and control is much the same as for foxes: a veil for naughty fun. I wanted to get a sense of what it might be like to kill someone, a stranger. You see it in all those films: guns and bodies, barely a close-up of reflection or doubt. What does it really feel like to shoot someone, or someone's close relative?"

Baboons are seen as a threat by some people in Tanzania because they raid crops, and farmers who need to control their populations can apply for licences to kill them in some areas. They have been classed as vermin in the country and often live on the edges of farming areas.

So, complete monster or 'harmless' bemusement?

[Seikyo Jack]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ll-shot-baboon



So, complete monster or 'harmless' bemusement?

I'd rather say a worthless SOB. Now, I have nothing against hunting, if it,s following certain rules and done with a little more respect for the animal you're hunting (I've been a hunter myself). But mindless killing like this, just for fun and knowing what it feels like to take a life, is despicable.

He admitted himself he had no reason t do it, other than "just for fun". So, if he had no excuse, why frickin' do it???
That kind of person makes me sick.

Maybe he should also get shot, y'know, "just for fun".

[OANST]

I don't have either the time or the inclination to accurately describe how I feel about this. Sooo.... Man, what a dick.

But seriously, that's fucking disgusting.

[Josh]

Shooting animals for fun is wrong. End of. The baboon did nothing to him, so why kill it?
I'm all for trying new things, but shooting a monkey to get a sense of killing a person? NURSE! THE STRAIGHTJACKET!

[MA]

despicable. its funny how people who only see killing in films and news reports want to do it for themselves, and go on to brag about it if they do, but those who have had to do it or do it for their job don't even like talking about it. they have more respect, and in some cases force themselves to live with the guilt.

the blokes that work the meat wagons and visit farms to cull livestock generally look a mess. a number of different characters i knew that did this job had a few problems, some caused by the job, others were apparent before they took that line of work up. i found out that a number of my friends that did this work either had depression (or felt depressed) which sparked during the time they had the job, were generally unnerving and 'not right' in the sense that you didn't trust them with the gun, which became apparent when they would shoot the animal with you standing next to it without warning, and others seemed to have fell into it on hard times.

one chap almost broke down on the yard when i told him he had to cull a bull calf. he even tried to get me to do it. that's true. it isn't good for you, so someone who kills animals for fun has never had to do it, i feel, therefore doesn't appreciate the beauty of life. of any living animal. they do it for pleasure, knowing they wont have to clean up the mess afterwards and can go home to a drink. also, they don't have to do it about 30+ times a day.

[MeechMunchie]

Ah, mollucks assistant. Your farmer knowledge is truly enlightening. Where would we be without you?

Hehe, Dalai Farmer.

[MA]

last time i posted something like that i got a load of "you're an evil bastard and i hate you. you make me feel sick" etc. fucking annoying how narrow-minded people can be.

[MeechMunchie]

What? You're spewing a load of peace and love about respecting animal life. What objection have people got to that?

[OANST]

last time i posted something like that i got a load of "you're an evil bastard and i hate you. you make me feel sick" etc. fucking annoying how narrow-minded people can be.

Someone has to have the balls to kill Bessie, so that I don't have to.

[Josh]

What? You're spewing a load of peace and love about respecting animal life. What objection have people got to that?

I'm going to assume "U KILLZ TEH ANIMALZ! U IZ A HYPOCRITE!!1!"

I have a problem with killing animals for fun. But not with what MA does. Doing that every day must really give you a respect for life.

[MeechMunchie]

What? You're spewing a load of peace and love about respecting animal life. What objection have people got to that?

I realise the word 'spewing' may make it seem like I'm being sarcastic. I genuinely agree with MA.

[Wings of Fire]

Just to clarify, according to that report he did it out of curiousity, not fun.

That makes him even more dangerous.

[Sekto Springs]

I don't really agree with hunting, but here in Pennsylvania, deer hunting is not only a sport but extremely necessary to the ecosystem. It's more of a form of culling really. We have so many fucking deer that they strip the forests clean of all edible grasses, and the forest can't grow back fast enough to keep up with their birthrate. Many deer starve to death under these conditions, so they're doing a bit of a favor by shaving down the numbers. Hitting them with cars helps too, though this is not nearly as affective as you often only hit one per month.

Twisted fun-fact: Given the volume of rednecks and taxidermist shops in the area just outside of the city, its not uncommon to see a deer that got hit by a car lying on the side of the road decapitated. Thats right. They go out and cut the head off of the deer to keep as a trophy. I could understand if whomever actually hit the deer did this, but the carcass sometimes sits there for two, three days before someone comes along and jugulates it.

As for hunting furry animals, I don't really care. Hunting for amusement, I find, is stupid and unnecessary, but I'm not the type to be arsed enough to get up and protest. Rabbits and deer actually kind of piss me off, so if you have to shoot them, then whatever. I seem to have more respect for the so-called "unlovable" animals such as frogs, snakes, bugs, etc. I see a dead cat or raccoon on the road and my response is "meh", but I see a flattened toad or snake and I feel strong remorse.

[Seikyo Jack]

That's the point of hunting, it's not for the thrill of shooting something. You go there to be in the forest, see an animal with your own two eyes. If you actually shoot one, you've helped in regularizing the animal population. If you didn't shoot one, well, you've had som contact with nature.

I actually think that anyone who is mad after a hunt because he didn't kill anything is a douche. Sure, it's great to take a deer with you, that means more meat to fill your fridge but coming back empty-ended is not dramatic.

[Bullet Magnet]

What a creep. He didn't even eat it.

[Munch's Master]

I don't like hunting mostly- as the "its done for cullnig" argument is bullshit 90% of the time. Most people hunt for fun.

This guy sounds dangerous. Killing forcuriosity suggests he could well move on to people. Plus what he did is horrible. I've done some reserach and study on baboons, apes, monkeys etc. as part of Psychology. They're extremely intelligent creatures. It appears the lack of a voicebox- and thus lack of true intercommunication with animals- is why people often justify taking a creature's life.

[OANST]

I don't like hunting mostly- as the "its done for cullnig" argument is bullshit 90% of the time. Most people hunt for fun.

Agreed. 100%

[Bullet Magnet]

The culling wouldn't even be necessary if someone hadn't already shot all of their natural predators.

[shaman]

I want to rip his head off and shit down his neck.

[Munch's Master]

The culling wouldn't even be necessary if someone hadn't already shot all of their natural predators.

Mankind: fucking with irony since time immemorial.

[Sekto Springs]

Whether or not the hunter knows that it's a form of culling is irrelevent. How many of you actually live in Pennsylvania? Hands!

Mhm, thought so.

I'm not defending hunters, but I've lived here long enough to know there is a serious problem with deer overpopulation. Even living only a mile outside of city limits, you're prone to see one deer a day (dead or alive) minimum. They don't use the culling argument as a means to attract people to the hunting market, in fact I doubt half the good ol' boys that do the deed in this area can even spell "culling".

As for the deer's "natural predators", this isn't the outback, and there weren't a fuckload of large carnivorous animals out here to begin with (which is partly why the deer population migrated here from the north).

[Havoc]

Now, I have nothing against hunting, if it,s following certain rules and done with a little more respect for the animal you're hunting (I've been a hunter myself).

Aha... please explain? I sense hypocrisy...

[Sekto Springs]

I imagine by "respect for the animal", he means putting the whole animal to good use. Meat, horns, pelt as something more than a "trophy".

[Mac Sirloin]

I love how his defense is "I know I'm a fucking retard, but it was still totally justified."

Die in a fire, Gil.

[Seikyo Jack]

I imagine by "respect for the animal", he means putting the whole animal to good use. Meat, horns, pelt as something more than a "trophy".

That and the fact that you don't actually care if you get one or not. There is no hypocrisy, as Havoc said, a hunter saying he still have respect for his preys is not bull-shitting. I'd say the rules about hunting are a form of respect, by respecting rules that are established, you hunt only a certain quota of animals and thus, are not depleting their race.

Anyway, it's always good to use as much of the animal as you can, instead of wasting the parts. Personally, during my hunting time I kept the meat. The only reason I didn't do anything with the rest was because I didn't know what to do with it or didn't have the skills/knowledge/money to make anything out of the pelt and the horns. I wouldn't actually wear deer-skin shoes.

I do admit mankind has deprived most herbivores of their natural predators. that's one good enough reason for hunting to exist, since hunters are basically making compensation for the predators that aren't there anymore. Hunters aren't assassins more than people who work in slaughterhouses.

[Fuzzle Guy]

If he really must know what it feels like, I'd rather him shoot the baboon than shoot me, but before he went out and took an innocent live, he should have contacted me. I have a handful of people at my old High School who I would have gladly put in the firing line.

[Munch's Master]

Don't get how making use of the animal shows respect for the animal. Implies they're designed to be nothing but our tools.

It's a difference of personal opinion and I doubt either of us will change each other's mind, but in my mind, you respect the animal by not hunting it. And hunters are much more assassins than slaughterhouse workers- as MA said the latter usually feel reluctance and remorse. Plus hunters aren't required to kill.

[Seikyo Jack]

Don't get how making use of the animal shows respect for the animal. Implies they're designed to be nothing but our tools.

It's a difference of personal opinion and I doubt either of us will change each other's mind, but in my mind, you respect the animal by not hunting it. And hunters are much more assassins than slaughterhouse workers- as MA said the latter usually feel reluctance and remorse. Plus hunters aren't required to kill.

The difference is simple: Animals in the wilderness have more chance to survive than animals in a slaughterhouse, since deers for example, are in their natural territory and you gotta have a good aim. And chances are you'll miss and the deer can go away. It happened once, the first one I ever shot in my life: The bullet scratched it and it got away. How could a slaughterhouse animal do that? The place is so much controlled (normal, I know, since they are made to provide food), the animals don't have a single chance to get away alive.

And what makes you believe slaughterhouse employees have remorse and reluctance? If they hate killing animals so much, what's stopping them from getting another job? Maybe there's reluctant/remorseful people in slaughterhouses, but surely there's not that much, since I don't remember having witnessed lacks of processed meat because of a lack of employees.

about using parts. Okay, maybe using every part isn't especially respectful but is putting the pelt, horns and everything else in a dumpster is better?

And I think if there wasn,t a single hunter in the whole world, that would be unrespectful to the animals, as said, we already depleted the natural predators and now the herbivores could eventually deplete the food ressources and starve. And I'm pretty sure starving is more painful than a bullet through the lungs. Maybe if we stayed primitive beings who only hate plant food and still lived in caves, then yeah, there wouldn't have to be hunters and slaughterhouses. But that's not our current reality.

And I think anyone who would find hunters despicable should just stop eating meat althogetter, if they haven't already did. Slaughterhouses aren't better than hunting. I think one thing that could be respect for animals is, if you have to kill it, give it a quick, painless death, because I saw videos of things that happen in slaughterhouses and believe me, I think my bullet through the lungs is not that bad. And don't ask for a link, I don't remeber where I saw this and it's too disgusting anyway.

[Havoc]

So just because you're not performing a mass animal genocide it makes it okay to just kill one? Just because you mutter a short 'With all due respect' before you pull the trigger it suddenly makes it different? I'm sorry but that's major bullshit.

You're using all the parts? So instead of going to the store and buy your meat there you insist on killing just one more animal for the heck of it. Yes we need to kill to live, that's why we have slaughterhouses in the first place. We don't need jackasses like you who think they can do a better job by going out hunting their own meat and wasting half of it. I don't care if you reuse every single part, it doesn't make it right. Following that logic I could shoot you in the face and as long as I sell your flesh at some WWII style butcher shop and use your bones for my Halloween decoration next year, I am totally justified in killing you because I did it with respect, right? Heck, killing humans would probably be more okay then killing animals, we're in the billions, what's the population of deer these days?

Don't try to act as if hunting innocent animals is doing something good for the planet. I have not a single ounce of respect for hunters who think they are 'all that' because they are able to carry a powerful gun into a forest. I'd like to see you try and kill a deer with your bare hands, make it a fair fight as long as you insist on hunting your own meat. I put 200 dollars on the deer.

[Daxter King]

I don't agree with the guy killing a Baboon just for the heck of it.

I don't agree with people saying hunters are evil.

And I certainly fucking do not agree with Havoc's fucking BS about an animal life equaling a human life. Get the fuck out of here with that fucking bullshit.