Abe, Oddworld Terrorist?

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

Just read an old topic on Oddworld been a reflection of our own world and this came to mind;

I think Oddworld is definitely a reflection of our own state of affairs but in Oddworld I think it's simplified somewhat. There's very definite groups that can be easily categorised into ‘right they’re evil’ and ‘they’re the good guys’. But in out own world the lines between them are not so clear or defined but indistinct.

So, with this in mind, did anyone ever consider that Abe and Munch are actually terrorists? But because they’re fighting obvious evil for the general good, we’re not about to condemn them for it.
And it really only depends on what point of view you’re looking from. For the Mudokons Abe is a saviour, saving them from slavery, but to the Magog Cartel he’s a terrorist, destroying their enterprises, (granted their business’ are run on the backs of slaves).

But then again, the term ‘terrorist’ has been branded with a bad name. I mean, terrorist, in the dictionary has less threatening synonyms such as rebel, revolutionary, freedom fighter, etc, etc. It’s just terrorists use terror tactics.

So what are your views? Are Abe and Munch terrorists or what?

[Havoc]

A nice term for this is: One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

I think that applies here. It applies for all kinds of terrorists. For America, Bin Laden is a terrorist. But remember the dancing and cheering back in Afganistan a few hours after the Twin Towers collapsed? They were happy a man like Bin Laden was attacking a supressing force like America.

It has two sides, and obviously the victem is always saying the attacker is the bad one. Thats normal.
In this case, ever since the start of Oddworld we saw Oddworld trough the eye's of Abe. Had we seen it from the magog cartel's point of view (and would they look a bit less evil :P) maybe then we would see Abe and the muds as the bad guys and the glukkons as the good guys. It's all a matter of perception.

[Wil]

We have seen Oddworld through the eyes of the Magog Cartel and Vykkers Conglomerate through the M.O.M. News and Daily Deception. Granted, these are actually forms of propaganda for the Industrial families, but it reveals exactly what you've said: Abe is regarded as a terrorist by the Glukkons. After all, he's responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Glukkons and Sligs, not to mention bringing about the crashing of Mudos's economy.

Former OWI programmer Charles Bloom had something interesting to say recently. He complained about the backlash against Columbus Day (which goes that it should be retitled Indigenous People's Day) by pointing out that Columbus's actions were perfectly suited to the moral norms of his era. Industrial society on Oddworld simply cannot produce tree-hugging native sympathisers - that's why Abe needs to open their eyes in order to acheive long-term succes rather than just blast them out of the way. Ultimately, Oddworld will be about blurring the line between good and evil. After all, even the Glukkons have to pay the rent.

[Volsung]

As Max said, it's a question of conflicting worldviews. The industrialists can't imagine the way the natives live. Or rather, they feel that such a method is errant, and would only be practiced by beings too flawed or too stupid to know their own method. The industrialist methods we've seen on oddworld have been astonishingly heartless, but there are people (like the clakkerz) who are unwittingly complicit in the destruction wrought by their lifestyle. On the other hand, they can't exactly go back to the jungle, and it's unfair to expect all the industrialists to give up the lives they've been leading without equal compensation. So what are they to do?

Of course, as of yet none of this has really been Abe's concern. The characters he and Munch faced were pretty easy to hate, and I didn't lose much sleep when I blew up their factories and sank their laboratory. But yeah, Later in the series a workable solution will have to be brought about.

On a side note, the columbus day thing is weird. The name Indigenous People's Day smacks of revisionism and has a sense of mock-honor to it. Changing the name to Indigenous People's Day makes me feel as if we're supposed to think that the events that followed Columbus's arrival were GOOD for native americans. If the backlash people are so upset, wouldn't it be less ambiguous to get rid of columbus day and set up a separate holiday to honor the indigenous people? But that's their thing, I suppose.

Oh, and just because one's actions are in line with the moral norms of your era, that doesn't mean one's actions aren't atrocious. I'm not talking about Columbus specifically, here. I just don't think that being a man of your time negates wrong-doing. But I suppose keeping that in mind does help with context.

[Nate]

I think Oddworld is definitely a reflection of our own state of affairs but in Oddworld I think it's simplified somewhat. There's very definite groups that can be easily categorised into ‘right they’re evil’ and ‘they’re the good guys’. But in out own world the lines between them are not so clear or defined but indistinct.

Not necessarily. Lorne has said repeatedly that the motivations of the characters are not black and white, that there is no true good and evil on Oddworld. That's the point he was trying to make in showing us Magog on the March and also if we would have ever got to play Hand of Odd.

Obviously we have only thus far played native/oppressed characters but I suspect that later on in the quintology we will play as an industrialised species.

[Volsung]

Magog on the March was also to show us the nature of propaganda. Since we were active participants in the events reported, it was easy to see how the actions and motives were misrepresented. But I think a game from an industrialized viewpoint could only be a positive thing. Knowing both sides of an issue is the best way to spark controversy and confuse the morally upright, from what I've seen. I'd probably be a little upset if the game's plot was an industrial species going native, but I doubt that would be the case. Yes, the ethical complications for an introverted character dependent on technology and aware of the problems of industrialization could be very interesting. Or something else. There are a lot of possibilities.

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

Yes, I agree with you Volsung, a game from an industrialist's POV would be very intresting to play.

nate_dog_woof, I see where you're coming from and if we do get to play a game with and industrial species I would alter my opinions, this is only from my experiance with Abe's Oddysee and Exoddus and vaguely with Munch, so I admit my ideas will be flawed.

[Nate]

I forgot to say in my last post: the aim of the quintologists is to restore the balance of Mudos, not have the natives overpower the industrialists.

[Angalok]

First topic I've responded to since the Inhabitants began their long post-Stranger silence, but this is such an intelligent discussion I'd like to contribute.

There's a historical figure here in Virginia by the name of John Brown, a man with wild eyes and a wilder beard, who led a pivotal slave rebellion and captured a military armory. He and his slave fighters were quickly defeated by a squadron of marines, however, and Brown himself was soon hanged. To this day, he remains a controversial figure, many praising him as a hero and others condemning him as a violent fanatic. I think Abe would go down in Oddworld history as a similar character, as his cause is noble but he certainly leaves a lot of destruction in the wake of his quest.

I might also point out that Oddworld's races are divided even more heavily than we are on Earth, as there are so many different sentient species. If black and white men can't get along, how can one expect an armless Glukkon to identify with or see value in a gangly Mudokon? I would say that the Glukkons see the other creatures as merely animals, and the idea of equal rights for them would be as ridiculous as men giving cows the right to vote.

[Wil]

Oh, and just because one's actions are in line with the moral norms of your era, that doesn't mean one's actions aren't atrocious. I'm not talking about Columbus specifically, here. I just don't think that being a man of your time negates wrong-doing.

Maybe not, but you can only make that determination in retrospect. If it's not considered morally wrong back then, then however moral the individual is, they're not going to worry about it. In a long time, perfectly normal activities we do today could be regarded as utterly immoral.

I would say that the Glukkons see the other creatures as merely animals, and the idea of equal rights for them would be as ridiculous as men giving cows the right to vote.

Very possibly that's a more fitting comparison. We know such a relationship does exist between the Industrial races and Steefs, but then when the Glukkons first became industrialists, they enslaved Mudokons under the impression that they were providing them with jobs - of course, that's what Magog Cartel propaganda still tells us, so maybe the Glukkons do really still believe that, regardless of how savage they consider the Mudokons.

[Volsung]

Max: True. In hindsight, everything becomes much clearer. I didn't mean to suggest that if columbus were a truly moral individual he would've known subjugating the native americans was a bad idea. But if he were a smarter individual he might've realized they weren't indian.

Wasn't there something that said the mudokons used to lord their symbol on the moon over the glukkons? And that was why the glukkons used science to alter their hands to be more similiar to mudokons hands? Thus warping their bodies into a somewhat impractical caricature of their former selves? Maybe I'm imagining it. But I could've sworn that happened.

What I'm saying is that the Glukkons believed they needed to prove that they were better than the mudokons. Which would suggest that they viewed the mudokons as at least on equal footing. Industrialization would've been a way of altering the priorities of their worldview. Suddenly Moolah and business acumen are the measures of success, in which the Glukkons have much, and the mudokons have none. An inversion of their importance in the grand scheme of things I suppose.

The long and short of it being: I think the relationship between those two races is complicated. Although current Glukkons probably do consider mudokons the same way Columbus thought of Africans and Native Americans--as intelligent but savage animals. Animals that could be convinced to work for food or wages.

[Angalok]

Volsung, I do remember the source of what you're saying about the Glukkons being jealous of the Mudokon's moon-print: it was on one of the older versions of the official Oddworld website, back when Abe's Exoddus was the newest game and the site had that vacuum-cleaner sounding background music.

I think the argument that the Glukkons see the Mudokons as animals, rather than "people", is strengthened by the fact that Rupture Farms was planning to turn them into FOOD. In spite of any superiority the Europeans felt over the various native civilizations they conquered, I don't believe they ever ate them (barring any Donner party type situations). To see a race as a viable food source is to see them as worthless animals, as I see it.

Also, as far as the Magog Cartel propaganda, do we know the audience those news-flashes were intended for? They were played over those screens that Abe puts his paw on, so perhaps those programs are intended for the Mudokons, hence the rosy spin about the slaves being given "jobs". The Glukkons may well watch their own types of programming that better reflects their true attitude.

[Salamander]

I forgot to say in my last post: the aim of the quintologists is to restore the balance of Mudos, not have the natives overpower the industrialists.

yes thats true, but its not that simple, the glukkons will probably never except the mudokons as citizens, as i recall in star wars, the jedi are supposed to bring order to the force, yet the use of the dark side force is forbidden. rather ironic
so are the mudokons supposed to make the glukkons slaves (when there powerful) and accept later? time might tell

[MeechMuncher]

I think there should be a Oddworld-MUD, just like the WotMud.(www.wotmud.org)

A text-based roleplaying game over the internet. 8-)
That would be fun!!!!

[oddguy]

just stopped by and this thread caught my eye. I had similiar thoughts a while ago.

http://www.oddworldforums.net/showthread.php?t=9890

-oddguy

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

Oops...sorry, didn't know there was already a thread on this topic...

[oddguy]

Oh...I just thought it was cool that there was another topic on this. I still think it's a very interesting subject, one I hope OW will deal with in the movie or future game.

Also, I thought you guys would like to see what people were saying about it then compared to now.

I wasn't here to be like "Hey I made a topic like this a million years ago, so you have no right to even resemble it!"

-oddguy

[Scrab-Meat]

Interesting enough Oddworld does reflect us however it reflects us in a cracked mirror effect or something along those lines. I also find it interesting to take in account on what other roles species play other than industrial and native. I mean Oddworld has a whole host of roles yet to be explored such as the quote on quote Khanzumers hence Consumers.

Isn't it true that the Khanzumers are the most important species on Oddworld? What makes them so important other than buying the very products the industrial races make? And what about the financial species or Bankers of Oddworld? Like tax collectors on our world. They certanly have a direct effect on everybody as well. Then we have the queens. I understand that they give birth to most races but do they have a role as well? I mean a role such as government bodies?

Thats one part of Oddworld I want explore.

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

Interesting thought Scrab Meat, but I agree with you, Oddworld may be reflecting our own but it's a distorted image that's for certain, and I'd like to know more about these Khanzumer people. Were they in Munch's Oddysee/Stranger's Wrath, 'cause I haven't heard of them yet.

[Scrab-Meat]

I read up on Oddworld a lot before I became part of this community so I know some facts. Perhaps any of the older members here can bring light to this Khanzumer topic. Anyway there was I think suppose to be Khanzumers for Munch but the idea was scraped and replaced with a fuccked up story line that seemed to ruin Oddworld all together. Damm Publishers for Microsoft!

If I know Lanning, he wanted those ideas in his games and when he made the switch for a bran new technology the publishers ruined it for him.

[Nate]

I don't think there were meant to be Khanzumers for Munch. We found out about them in a reference in the AE manual and the impression I got was that we weren't going to meet them until late in the quintology.

Beyond what you said, we don't yet know anything about them though.

[Scrab-Meat]

Hmm I was under the impression that they were going to be in Munch maybe Im wrong. Thats a new one on me nate_dog_woof.

[Xavier]

OWI made some hints to Khanzumers at different moments:
in the AE booklet and in the Christmass Mail right before Stranger

but we never saw any.

I get the same impression as NDW, they will probably apear later as the story develops

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

Thanks for that Scrab Meat, NDW and Xavier...

So if we don't know much about them, makes you think what they'll be like doesn't it...hope it's nothing completely hideous like humans or something, although, it'd be kinda fitting, if Khanzumers are the Magog Cartel driving force and thus pretty much the cause of Oddworld getting screwed, it's actually very human...

[Nate]

Yeah, I've always thought that the Khanzumers would be the most human-like of all Oddworld Species. But maybe they won't actually show them; we'll just hear dialog from behind a curtain or something, like Blofeld in the first few Bond movies.

[Xavier]

like Maggie (on the phone in MO)
except we saw a concept art from her.

[Cullen Heath]

you mean lady margret, right?

[Nate]

She's known to her friends as Maggie. But, as alf says, she has no friends.

[Cullen Heath]

"margret" or "maggie" is the glukkon queen(if im wrong im going insane)correct?
Why is she a giant worm thingy?

[Nate]

Yes, she's the gluk queen.

Why is she a giant worm?
Because she's basically a machine to pop out baby gluks. The worm shape is well streamlined for this purpose.