Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee & Exoddus HD Lifting? -

Holy Sock · #31 03-19-2015, 04:40 PM

You mean like this?

I always got the impression these were promotional screens only.

Manco · #32 03-19-2015, 04:51 PM

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No no no, guys the reason its junk is because we where totally short changed. Remember that "happy oddmas thing JAW did? THOSE are the sprites the "hi-res" PC version was supposed to be using. Native 640x480, not an upscaled PSX emulated 640x240 thing with even worse sound emulation.

I guess whoever was doing the port couldn't get it to run fast enough due to the cheap emulation - so the just used slightly higher res sprites instead.

Now don’t get me wrong, I would have loved if this happened, but being an exact playable copy of the console game rather than having higher-res graphics doesn’t make a game a junk port. Rather the opposite in fact.

Nepsotic · #33 03-19-2015, 06:52 PM

The point is it could have been done much better. The sound was awful, the secret area noise killed my ears every time it played, and the controls weren't very responsive.

Job McYossie · #34 03-19-2015, 09:52 PM

I still have no idea what you mean with any of that. The only time I hear any difference is if they are played side by side.

Phylum · #35 03-19-2015, 11:20 PM

From your work with the LVL stuff it looked like the engine on the whole was a bit hacky and inflexible too, right?

e: @ Paul, new page

Also just because it plays well doesn't mean that it's a good port, or that it would be easy to bring to any modern platforms.

Varrok · #36 03-20-2015, 01:32 AM

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You mean like this?

I always got the impression these were promotional screens only.

These were photoshopped beauty shots, before the port was completed.

Manco · #37 03-20-2015, 02:23 AM

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Also just because it plays well doesn't mean that it's a good port

No that’s exactly how it works.

Criteria for a good port:

Does it run?
Is it buggy?
Does it have all the same content as the original?

You can’t tell me AO/AE PC are bad ports because they don’t have high-res graphics that the original game never had in the first place. I get that PC games are all about the sweet graphics but they’re sprite-based games from the 1990s, get over it.

Being able to reverse-engineer it to port it again isn’t a criteria to judge it on either. You judge the original game or the source code on that.

Holy Sock · #38 03-20-2015, 03:07 AM

The controls were very responsive. In fact, I'd argue I had a much easier time completing AE on PC than on PS1 because of the ease of pressing my keyboard keys.

Phylum · #39 03-20-2015, 03:57 AM

A good port should transition the same game to new hardware, working around whatever pros and cons that brings. AO on PC still feels like it's limited by the PS1 specs, with random hangs between scenes and disproportionately long loading times. Also, the loading times are pretty inconsistent. It's not even (usually) relevant to the gameplay, but I doubt that bringing AO to PC architecture was a particularly well planned process.

Also the input problems come when you try to tap keys, or press certain combinations. I find it hard to believe that you can play through the game without getting annoyed at Abe's twitching. I think it still happens in the PS1 version though, so it's not really port related to my knowledge.

And before anyone tries to be smart like me and say that the input feels different because the PC port is translating digital keyboard strokes to analogue (pressure-sensitive) inputs for the engine, the PS1 controllers didn't have pressure sensitive buttons. The more you know!

Varrok · #40 03-20-2015, 04:08 AM

Manco is right. Also, back in 1997 nobody could predict the boom for hd remakes such as NnT or remasters so they didn't really code the engine to be friendly for such future things.

Holy Sock · #41 03-20-2015, 04:46 AM

The loading is much faster on PC. You really don't have to sit down and shaddup for long.

Paul · #42 03-20-2015, 09:08 AM

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From your work with the LVL stuff it looked like the engine on the whole was a bit hacky and inflexible too, right?

e: @ Paul, new page

Also just because it plays well doesn't mean that it's a good port, or that it would be easy to bring to any modern platforms.

Exactly this - what I'm saying is that technically it sucks because all they did was re-implement the PSYQ functions to work with DirectX. Its literally a PS1 emulator - and a buggy one at that. For example each sprite should be its own DirectX sprite, but its just one huge image that gets locked and has its pixels manipulated directly. This is VERY bad for performance - these days not an issue, back then it was an issue. Also since its a PS1 emulator they have to allocate a huge image for the PS1 framebuffer, a waste of memory - again not a problem now but would have been back then.

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You mean like this?

I always got the impression these were promotional screens only.

Yup - you can tell from Abes red eyes, they match the sprites JAW used, so while most of these screens where doctored up to look nice, this is actually what the PC version should have looked like.

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Now don’t get me wrong, I would have loved if this happened, but being an exact playable copy of the console game rather than having higher-res graphics doesn’t make a game a junk port. Rather the opposite in fact.

These days people expect the PC version to have higher res textures, more tessellation, lighting, higher polygon models than the Console versions, else it gets the "OMGZ THIS IS A BAD PORT" screams. But now engines are optimized per platform, AO and AE just had the PS1 lib layer hacked up to make it work on PC, not really a "port" as such at all.

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I still have no idea what you mean with any of that. The only time I hear any difference is if they are played side by side.

If you think the secret area sound is the same on PC and PS1 you must have much worse hearing than me

maybe I'll create a youtube video that shows the diffs. The PC version of the game does not implement reverb and other PS1 SPU hardware sound effects, this is why it doesn't sound as good. Additionally there are other strange bugs in the emulation where a channel sometimes plays a sound indefinitely - this can be worked around by pause/unpausing the game and the sound stops.

In the modding thread someone used some 3rd party lib to play an AO sound track that did support all sound effects correctly, needless to say it sounded a lot better.

Manco · #43 03-20-2015, 11:14 AM

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You mean like this?

I always got the impression these were promotional screens only.

:

Yup - you can tell from Abes red eyes, they match the sprites JAW used, so while most of these screens where doctored up to look nice, this is actually what the PC version should have looked like.

I actually wonder, the source code might be lost but if all the old art assets are around could someone rebuild the game from scratch with those high-res assets? That would be nice to see.

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These days people expect the PC version to have higher res textures, more tessellation, lighting, higher polygon models than the Console versions, else it gets the "OMGZ THIS IS A BAD PORT" screams. But now engines are optimized per platform, AO and AE just had the PS1 lib layer hacked up to make it work on PC, not really a "port" as such at all.

Yeah, these days – when almost all platforms are based on the same architecture and are usually developed on middleware and multiplatform engines. AO and AE were ported back in the PC gaming dinosaur era, and from games originally built for a platform which doesn’t share much architecture with PCs.

There’s just no reason to call it a bad port when it’s completely functional and has no major bugs or issues despite being 18 years old.

Paul · #44 03-20-2015, 03:45 PM

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I actually wonder, the source code might be lost but if all the old art assets are around could someone rebuild the game from scratch with those high-res assets? That would be nice to see.

Yeah, these days – when almost all platforms are based on the same architecture and are usually developed on middleware and multiplatform engines. AO and AE were ported back in the PC gaming dinosaur era, and from games originally built for a platform which doesn’t share much architecture with PCs.

There’s just no reason to call it a bad port when it’s completely functional and has no major bugs or issues despite being 18 years old.

Well in my opinion I feel it is a "bad" port, someone could reconstruct the game. Actually I created a github project for this today:

https://github.com/paulsapps/alive

Since it looks like previous "alive" projects are "dead"

It will probably be quite a while before this even displays a sprite though. Also no assurance it will ever be finished.

I did this a while back but lost the code and it was hacked together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdhI-rFtXGE

Manco · #45 03-20-2015, 06:16 PM

A constructed version of the game would only really be worthwhile if someone could get their hands on those high-res art assets though.

That said, as much as it’s a pipe dream it’s one of those nerdy things that I dream about seeing – literally the same original games but with better versions of the original art assets, plus opportunity to make it easy for new custom levels.

Phylum · #46 03-20-2015, 06:56 PM

People have been able to make custom levels for years, it's just that the engine is clunky and doesn't actually support that kind of thing.

Remaking the game to run better on modern operating systems (did someone say windowed mode?) and support custom content without having nasty hook .dlls would be great with or without better assets.

Also we could just ask OWI if we could have the hq sprites. If JAW used them they must still be around to some extent.

FrustratedAssassin · #47 03-21-2015, 12:04 AM

Where did they use them though? I saw the discussion about the Merry Oddmas thing they apparently did, but I can't for the life of me find the actual thing anywhere.

Fincer · #48 03-21-2015, 01:04 AM

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Remaking the game to run better on modern operating systems (did someone say windowed mode?) and support custom content without having nasty hook .dlls would be great with or without better assets.

Open source Oddworld 2D platformer? Like open source version of 1995 C&C Red Alert, Open RA, which has 100% support for modern PCs?

Would be great!

Just open a new project on Github and let's make one!

Manco · #49 03-21-2015, 02:19 AM

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Where did they use them though? I saw the discussion about the Merry Oddmas thing they apparently did, but I can't for the life of me find the actual thing anywhere.

http://www.jawltd.com/xmas11/

Crashpunk · #50 03-21-2015, 05:55 AM

luke3212 manged to extract the HD sprites but the download link is down...

Thankfully I've still got them: http://www.mediafire.com/download/kv...Sprites_HD.zip

FrustratedAssassin · #51 03-21-2015, 06:00 AM

Wow. That's very fluid animation. Hi-res too.

Manco · #52 03-21-2015, 08:02 AM

So those are the sprites used in the Xmas message. They certainly look higher detail than the sprites in the old games, so JAW must have at least some of old art assets in order to be able to make that.

The question is, do they have the rest, like all the background environments and other characters?

Holy Sock · #53 03-21-2015, 08:10 AM

I believe they do. Lorne's made a point that they archived all their assets in high quality to save money on future titles. It saved them a few million on New n Tasty since they used them as a reference.

Manco · #54 03-21-2015, 08:12 AM

Well that’s for the 3D models if I remember rightly, but whether the matte paintings or the other original sprites are still around remains to be seen.

e: Man, I’d love to see a bunch of fans get together and rebuild those games from scratch with the old art assets. Pipe dream, but it’d be cool.

Shade667 · #55 03-21-2015, 08:25 AM

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e: Man, I’d love to see a bunch of fans get together and rebuild those games from scratch with the old art assets. Pipe dream, but it’d be cool.

Why? What would be the point? Itd just be the same. I dont see where you're coming from.

Manco · #56 03-21-2015, 08:52 AM

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Why? What would be the point? Itd just be the same. I dont see where you're coming from.

Same gameplay, scrubbed up art and sound assets, made with modern game engine features like running in a window, being Mac and Linux friendly, running at other resolutions, having full controller support, and being more easily modded to make new levels.

Same games, but better. Like a classic HD remake.

Shade667 · #57 03-21-2015, 09:01 AM

Isnt New n Tasty just that idea but with money behind it?

Manco · #58 03-21-2015, 09:04 AM

No, New n Tasty is a grounds-up remake which was all about adapting and modernising the original concept for a new generation. Different engine, different style, different art assets.

It’s the difference between taking an old movie and scrubbing up the footage to put on a Blu Ray, and taking the original script and shooting a new movie as an adaptation.

Shade667 · #59 03-21-2015, 09:10 AM

So you want a middle ground. Dont like New n Tasty (wasnt what u wanted as a remake) but dont want to play the original for the umpteenth time?

Manco · #60 03-21-2015, 09:19 AM

No, I like New n Tasty and it’s a great remake. I also like the original AO/AE and want to replay them, but I want them scrubbed up to be the best they can be. These are old games and while they’re still very playable, the low resolution and old engine can get in the way of that.