Evil, Does It Exist?

[Sekto Springs]

But I've heard of several scenarios where people who are classified as having certain conditions who are still Technically guilty becuase they have "Just enough" free will. I really don't know enough about the subject to take a side. But it's still a pretty big mindfuck.

Like all things, we designate the amount or quality of something with various tests.
By testing the individual, we can determine (or at least as get as close was need to know) how much control that individual had over their actions. The whole "plea of insanity" defense. Voices in his head told him to do it, he needs medical help not prison.

I'm proud of us as a society for coming that far, honestly. Back in the day you could be killed on the spot for just having tourettes. It's still a very gray area that needs alot of fine-tuning, but we're getting there. Shabby legal system aside, we're getting much better at weeding out the dangerous criminals from the under-medicated.

A reason is not an excuse, just because I get a hardon when I hear a woman cry does not mean I go out and make them cry for me.

That's because you're simply not a man of action.

[Leto]

the THEY CAN'T HELP IT IT WAS THEY UPBRINGING/AWWW THERES SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM, LIKE THEYRE INSANE OR SOME SHIT argument is bollocks and is people trying to put an EVERYONE IS ALRIGHT spin on things

basically, in this world there are cunts.

[Wings of Fire]

I think we're playing different language games here, especially when talking about evil.

[shaman]

True, mental instablility isn't an excuse, but it can be a valid explaination. The real issue begins with deciding how much instability is required to deem a person "unable to control their own actions".

It's a hard one for my humble teenage mind anyway.

[Sekto Springs]

Leto is being very "cut the shit" on this topic, and in a lot of ways he is right.
But even those who are "just cunts" have a reason they are so. Perhaps it's not a reason we can do anything about, such as heredity, but the point still stands that people aren't just baby-raping murderers for no reason.

It's not an 'excuse' either. I don't think anyone will argue that if someone has the serial killer gene, they shouldn't go to prison.

[Leto]

I think we're playing different language games here, especially when talking about evil.

nono, don't bullshit the issue.

we all know evil n shit. fuckin babies, that's evil. killing n shit, you know, just cos. that's evil. etc NONO WHAT ABOUT MOTIVE- noo, stfu. don't need none of these psyc uni classes to tell what is and isn't evil

[Sekto Springs]

That's really dismissive thinking, bro.
Nothing "just is", especially when it comes to human beings. We aren't "just" anything. We are all complex organisms and every action, motion, and thought is dictated by very specific electrical impulses and chemicals. Faulty wiring can turn you into a fucknut, but if we all thought as black and white as you do, a lot of people who were simply a bit schizo or manic depressive would be lumped in with people who just genuinely loved killing.

Though this scenario is somewhat far-fetched: what if a schizo ran out of insurance, or through some bs technicality, was forced to go without his meds for a period? In this amount of time, voices in his head told him to stab his co-worker because he's an evil alien bent on turning the entire populous intro grapefruit. He kills him.

This is just another example of the gray area that has to be taken into consideration when dealing with these situations. You have to handle them gingerly, regardless of how sure you are the person is just a raving devil.

[used:)]

I don´t know whether or not there is evil. I hate to say this, but it is all subjective. They sacrificed people and animals in ancient times because they thought it would save them from eternal damnation. Luckily, through technology, our lives have become easier and we have a more rational perception of the world. In our society, child rape is evil because we understand the consequences, but our hard-wiring is still vulnerable to tweaking. There´s a genetic disorder called Jacob´s Disease which makes some males more aggresive by nature. And in fact, many prison inmates suffer from this disease (according to my high school bio teacher at least). I once saw on Facebook a man desperately defending the death penalty because he claimed that he had to endure watching his mother be murdered when he was just a child. Whether or not that´s true, I think it´s safe to say that such an experience would make most people favor the death penalty. I personally believe the death penalty is wrong, but it´s only because of my raising and personal experiences that have led me to this belief. I dare to say they are the "right" experiences. There are factors we can´t individually control. For someone to be "good," they have to grow up "correctly." As I said earlier, our society has the benefit of having advanced technology which help us learn and live more easily, to let us raise our children in the "correct" circumstances. I hate to sound so uncertain on it, but it´s just what I think.

How about this question: Does "good" actually exist?

[Pilot]

I'm proud of us as a society for coming that far, honestly. Back in the day you could be killed on the spot for just having tourettes. It's still a very gray area that needs alot of fine-tuning, but we're getting there. Shabby legal system aside, we're getting much better at weeding out the dangerous criminals from the under-medicated.

Under-medicated- Doesn't "medicating" just cover up their underlying problem?

[Sekto Springs]

Under-medicated- Doesn't "medicating" just cover up their underlying problem?

I, of course, use that term loosely. Being medicated doesn't necessarily mean taking pills.
However, I think medication (chemically) is necessary for someone who is schizophrenic to function. Not everything can be solved through introspection and whey protein shakes.

Depression is a different matter, and alot of the times things can be traced to an internal source that is self-propelled. But taking pills to sober up a schizo is no different than taking Nyquil if you have a cold, it's something that only serves to benefit and help you function.

[Pilot]

I, of course, use that term loosely. Being medicated doesn't necessarily mean taking pills.
However, I think medication (chemically) is necessary for someone who is schizophrenic to function. Not everything can be solved through introspection and whey protein shakes.

Depression is a different matter, and alot of the times things can be traced to an internal source that is self-propelled. But taking pills to sober up a schizo is no different than taking Nyquil if you have a cold, it's something that only serves to benefit and help you function.

I disagree. Cold is a virus, and something that is well understood. Schizophrenia is not a virus or a communicable disease; in fact, it's something not very well understood at all and under intent study so that it can be understood. Medication dulls the 'resulting effects' of Schizophrenia but as for the explicit cause(es); unknown. All we have at this time are educated guesses and hypotheses, at best.

A far more accurate example would be applying bubblegum to a hot water tank that's leaking because it's corroded. Why has it corroded?... the corrosion being a byproduct of some other 'underlying' condition which is not understood. We didn't always know 'why' rust formed, you know?

We're not going to understand the cause, or know how to prevent the condition without more knowledge.

[Sekto Springs]

Oh, sorry I misunderstood.
Well, of course medication is not a final solution. However, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to medicate schizos until we find an end-all to their problem.

[Pilot]

Oh, sorry I misunderstood.
Well, of course medication is not a final solution. However, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to medicate schizos until we find an end-all to their problem.

Medication is seldom a 'final solution;' just a crutch. With depression in particular, why has is seemed to suddenly skyrocket in the past half century? Aside from apparent genetic disposition to it, there is something that's not being seen or addressed to combat this.... now what is it? Do we investigate or do we medicate and sweep an individual under the rug? In this circumstance, I feel that personal introspection is key in addressing the problem individually, especially when establishment means don't seem to help.

As for medicating schizos until we find the 'end all'; sure. What else is there to do? As humans we've managed as a society to hobble along by the seat of our pants in order to make it this far, and I think it's only sensible to keep trying. I just can't see to 'accepting' present and momentary established 'treatments' as 'cures' especially when our scientific study and knowledge is ever dynamic.

[Sekto Springs]

I don't accept them as cures, and you already know this.
As for depression, it is a self-propelled problem and the only cure lies within yourself.

I don't know of any sensible people in the medical profession that accept medication as anything but temporary relief.

[Pilot]

I don't accept them as cures, and you already know this.
As for depression, it is a self-propelled problem and the only cure lies within yourself.

I don't know of any sensible people in the medical profession that accept medication as anything but temporary relief.

Of course I know, but this is here for public discussion, not "you already know"

[Sekto Springs]

But it's more fun if the masses think we have some kind of inside joke going on :C

[Wings of Fire]

nono, don't bullshit the issue.

we all know evil n shit. fuckin babies, that's evil. killing n shit, you know, just cos. that's evil. etc NONO WHAT ABOUT MOTIVE- noo, stfu. don't need none of these psyc uni classes to tell what is and isn't evil

I mean we're both thinking about 'evil' in a different sense, nothing to do with psychology, I leave my psychology in the lectures nowdays.

In the sense that Sadists cannot help but do bad things, just as narcissists cannot help but love themselves, and that someone who does bad things is an evil person, then yeah he's evil. But that's not what I'm talking about when I call something evil.

When I think of an evil person I think of a person who is incapable to do good, an amoralist, someone who knows very well the difference between good and evil acts, and chooses to do evil for the very sake of evil. I do not believe that that is a coherent picture, and one we only see in fiction.

[Pilot]

Who's joking? I can actually be serious you know.

In the sense that Sadists cannot help but do bad things, just as narcissists cannot help but love themselves, and that someone who does bad things is an evil person, then yeah he's evil. But that's not what I'm talking about when I call something evil.

Do you feel that 'sadists cannot help but do bad things' and 'narcissists cannot help but love themselves,' or do you think that this behavior may have somehow been learned?

[Sekto Springs]

Who's joking? I can actually be serious you know.

HAHAHAHA... Ohh, mercy *wipes eye*

[Leto]

man you're all so tl;dr

what happened to the cesspool of sputum this forum used to be

[Pilot]

I know. I miss it too. LOOK AT ME

[Sekto Springs]

what happened to the cesspool of sputum this forum used to be

FIX'D

[Leto]

much, much better.

don't think, live.

[Wings of Fire]

Do you feel that 'sadists cannot help but do bad things' and 'narcissists cannot help but love themselves,' or do you think that this behavior may have somehow been learned?

If it can be learned then it can be stopped from being learned. Therefore people are not born evil. If people are born evil and such behaviour cannot be learned or unlearned then they have no freedom, and you can't be evil without choice.

Both sides of the argument lose.

much, much better.

don't think, live.

I prefer doing both, thanks. Everything in balance.

[Pilot]

FIX'D

My face went into my hands just now.

If it can be learned then it can be stopped from being learned. Therefore people are not born evil. If people are born evil and such behaviour cannot be learned or unlearned then they have no freedom, and you can't be evil without choice.

Both sides of the argument lose.

So then why can't it be both? To say 'people are born evil' is not just a generalization but also absolute (just to clarify, you are not saying this; I'm exemplifying); the way I see it personally any person's behavior can be influenced by past (previous life) experiences; places and times they have been/seen/lived. Born evil? I don't know about that, but I do think that we've all done something at least considered 'evil' at some point in our pasts, no matter what your standpoint is.

EDIT: I just realized that was the uncensored version Sekto. GOOD SHOW

[Leto]

I prefer doing both, thanks. Everything in balance.

*moderation, and you've been doing far too much thinking boy.

[Oddey]

I have no idea how to respond to this with something new, so I want to ask a question.

If a man murders your mother, is it still "evil" to kill him?

[Leto]

what if your mother was a huge evil cunt herself?

[OANST]

I personally believe the death penalty is wrong, but it´s only because of my raising and personal experiences that have led me to this belief.

I am also opposed to the death penalty, but probably for different reasons than you. I see it as institutionalized vengeance, and while I think that in many cases vengeance is actually warranted, I find it to be a double standard when you would send a man to prison for killing the man who murdered his child, but society would have killed him anyway.

[used:)]

I´m think we have similar reasons. I think it´s wrong because the state shouldn´t have that kind of power, even if the person is absolute scum. It´s contradictory. You said once if something happened to your daughter, you would personally take vengeance. And while I´m inclined to disagree with that, at the same time I can´t help but feel like it´s the more appropriate action, if you felt it was right.