Atheism and Religion: Your views -

TheRaisin · #31 07-04-2005, 04:56 PM

Dino... I might think you were joking if you hadn't already made clear your hatred for Christianity. "Dump all the Christians on a deserted island because some of the more influential ones are having a negative impact on their religion as well as others"... that's like saying "Get rid of all the white people because Bush is screwing up."

I would think an atheist would be more accepting of others, but apparently you're one of those militant atheists. You're exactly the same as those few fascist Christians who are "encroaching upon the non-believing world". And it's really funny, in fact, because you're such a tiny minority in terms of your beliefs, yet you're ranting about Christians like an insane Nazi ranting about Jews. Hmm. Interesting that you speak of throwing stones at battleships, isn't it?

And if you were being ironic when you said what you said... disregard everything I just said. But from your previous remarks, I don't think you were.

And dammit, don't you dare argue semantics with me. I lost my eloquence long ago, but my point is still valid!

Dino · #32 07-04-2005, 07:40 PM

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Dino... I might think you were joking if you hadn't already made clear your hatred for Christianity.

Raisin, Raisin, Raisin. I don't hate christianity! I just hate parts of it. I was actually joking about dumping it on an island, and it was mostly satyrical - partly to do with exposure to things that would offend them, and party to do with how they like to attempt to change a world that doesn't belong to them.

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"Dump all the Christians on a deserted island because some of the more influential ones are having a negative impact on their religion as well as others"... that's like saying "Get rid of all the white people because Bush is screwing up."

No it isn't. It's more like saying "Put Bush and his supporters into a Matrix-like simulation world in which they can do as much harm, shoot as many guns, and detonate as many nukes as they like, without ever harming themselves or any REAL people". Christians have every right to practice their own beleifs, but basically asking the whole world the bow down to those beliefs is a bit arrogant.

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I would think an atheist would be more accepting of others, but apparently you're one of those militant atheists.

Nope, you're wrong there. But I don't really feel that I should be accepting of something that doesn't offer me or anyone else acceptance, and attempts to force itself upon the world. This is what I take issue with, and this is what I won't accept. Any decent christian or priest or church or establishment that accepts my beliefs and my right to practice them without being harassed, or bullied, or hindered, I have NO problem with.

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You're exactly the same as those few fascist Christians who are "encroaching upon the non-believing world".

No I am not. I'm not making anyones life a misery, I'm not slowing the progress of science just because it offends my beliefs, I'm not harassing people at their doorstep, and I'm not rubbing my beliefs in anyones face. I'm just stating what I feel in a thread that asks me what I feel. Other than that I barely ever mention it. Most of the time, if not all the time, I won't even do anything. I don't go to any atheism rights activist websites or events, I don't throw bottles of burning petrol at church leaders, I just sit here and stew, get pissed, make a mental note that I dislike these people, then when the time comes to rant, I rant.

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And it's really funny, in fact, because you're such a tiny minority in terms of your beliefs, yet you're ranting about Christians like an insane Nazi ranting about Jews.

I'm a minority in terms of my beliefs? So what? Is that supposed to give me any less right or insentive to speak here or believe in myself and what I stand for? I'm not ranting about Christians, they're decent, law abiding people - I'm ranting about how so much of Christianity does so many unchristian and freaking inconsiderate, selfish things, and gets away with it simply because it has so much power and so much influence. It happens in all institutions with any amount of power, but Christianity is a real chart topper in that respect. These are my beliefs, these are the things that I see every day in the news and in the world around me, and even if I was the only person on the planet who believed this and saw these things, I would still believe it.

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Hmm. Interesting that you speak of throwing stones at battleships, isn't it?

Is it? Well that's what they'd be doing if they were all stuck on an island, left to practice their religion with their stupid "standards", and see how far their "pure" way of life gets them. Because that would be the only thing left to offend them.

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And dammit, don't you dare argue semantics with me. I lost my eloquence long ago, but my point is still valid!

Your point is valid in your opinion.

Munch's Master · #33 07-05-2005, 09:06 AM

I would just like to say one thing about God (If he is real, which I doubt), and I mean this in a bit of a light-hearted way:
Earth is supposed to be paradise right, according to the Bible? Well, if this is God's idea of paradise, then he has a pretty sick sense of humour.

As I say, I mean this lightheartedly, I don't want to get into religious arguements. I'm just musing.

Abe16 · #34 07-05-2005, 09:50 AM

God, gave some people a choice, to follow him, or to not. Some people followed him and some people just scoffed at him. I'm guessing it's just a preperation.

AquaticAmbi · #35 07-05-2005, 10:30 AM

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I would just like to say one thing about God (If he is real, which I doubt), and I mean this in a bit of a light-hearted way:
Earth is supposed to be paradise right, according to the Bible? Well, if this is God's idea of paradise, then he has a pretty sick sense of humour.

As I say, I mean this lightheartedly, I don't want to get into religious arguements. I'm just musing.

Are you getting this from the Adam and Eve story? If so, I'm quite positive if you read to the end of Eden, you'll find that all the main paradisey ways of life are taken away from mankind for sinning. At least, that's how I remember interpreting it.

*Grimaces* I dislike talking about the Adam and Eve story for quite a few reasons. Personally, I take it as a metaphor and whatnot.

Kimon · #36 07-05-2005, 10:34 AM

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Earth is supposed to be paradise right, according to the Bible?

No...

It was paradise when Adam and Eve were there, but then Adam ate the Forbidden Banana and it turned into what it is today.

AquaticAmbi · #37 07-05-2005, 10:39 AM

Forbidden banana? That sounds naughty.

*Runs away*

***Wil*** · #38 07-05-2005, 10:40 AM

I skipped most of this thread because I'd wager it's turned into a discussion rather than a census.

Up until highly recently I classed myself as an agnostic, but I realised Yahweh as described by religious authorities didn't exist and re-pigeon-holed myself as athiest - not that I don't believe there can be phenomenal powers and forces we can't yet imagine, just there's nothing actually supernatural about them. They're just beyond our current understanding.

Jacob · #39 07-05-2005, 11:20 AM

Isn't it true that the Garden of Eden is s'posed to be in Baghdad somewhere?

Munch's Master · #40 07-05-2005, 12:16 PM

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No...

It was paradise when Adam and Eve were there, but then Adam ate the Forbidden Banana and it turned into what it is today.

Ah well I dunno, I'm not really religious, we just get it forced onto us at my school as though we're all expected to be Christian, even though most of us really aren't.

soulstice · #41 07-05-2005, 12:25 PM

Another thing, I don't see how people can try to prove that God exists. Surely if 'he' did, there'd be some kind of physical action on 'his' part, and as there isn't and never has been, surely 'he' doesn't exist. Also, without him there wouldn't be Jihads and Mujaheddins in the name of 'Allah' or crusades in the Christian sense.

soulstice · #42 07-05-2005, 12:33 PM

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You cannot lump all followers of Christianity together like that. There are people who are the all-accepting kind of Christians (which is the way it was meant to be followed), and then are the Christians who support the death penalty. That doesn't sound very compassionate to me.

Have you ever had any Christians sacrifice thier life because they think their god wants them to? To me, that's being much more faithhful than knocking on doors. I actually agree with Dino on the overpowering Chrsitianty thing. It's more of a cult now than anything else.

And just to be fair, this:

conflicts with this:

I don't know how that makes sense at all, but to be fair, tales like Adam and Eve were meant to be parables, not historical accounts.

Buddhists don't sacrifice their lives in the name of God, because they don't believe in God. On the other hand, they do commit Sati Dakshayani if they're really passionate about non-violence.

P.S. Extremely sorry about double post. I forgot I posted before. Stupid, I know.

TheRaisin · #43 07-05-2005, 12:38 PM

Maybe God's just like that. Or maybe humans are a failed experiment.

Jacob, I've heard that the actual place upon which it was based was in a marshy area of Iraq, which Hussein had drained for some reason or another. To bring out the refugees hiding there or something. That's assuming it was based on an actual place.

Max, somehow I like your thinking. The idea of God being a part of nature, rather than "supernatural", appeals to me. Although I'm not sure how this makes you atheist rather than agnostic.

Rich · #44 07-05-2005, 12:47 PM

The garden of Eden thing is another story. It is a story which shows themes of the building of trust, feelings love, forces of good and evil, lies and the breaking of trust.
Basically, God creates this paradise, the garden of Eden. He loves Adam and Eve and tells them they are to live in this happy place forever and look after the animals. They shall have this eternal happiness and can do whatever they wish in the garden on one condition, that they don't eat the fruit from a certain tree. They agree to this and God puts his trust in them.

This tree is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. One day Eve passes the tree and sees the fruit. An evil serpent persuades her to eat the fruit. She eats the fruit. Then she persuades Adam to eat the fruit.

Consequently, God comes back. He is upset and angry and kicks them out of paradise.

The moral of this story is: Remember that snakes can't fucking talk.

Munch's Master · #45 07-05-2005, 12:57 PM

LOL! Good moral. But I think that nerly al the Bible stories are false. Jesus may well have been real, I don't know. Leader of a new religion and a Jewish rebel yes, Son of God? I doubt it. Moses parting the Red Sea? No, more likely that the tide was just out or something. And so on and so on. The one story which has no possibility whatsoever is Noah's Ark. Everyone in the world, black and white, all countries, all nationalities, descended from Noah and his family. How? Which leads me onto another thing: In the Adam and Eve story Adam and Eve have 2 sons, Kain and Abel. So that's 4 humans: Adam, Eve, Kain, Abel. Kain kills Abel, so is banished. Then apparently he meets a princess and falls in love with her or something (I haven't really read the Bible so I don't know, this is just what I've heard). Where did this princess come from?
Which leads to my conclusion: The events mentioned in the Bibe were relligiously motivated perhaps, and could be thpought of as great acts, but Christianity wanted to change it to a more Christian version so they spiced it all up to make it sound like they were the true religion and God favoured them. I mean no offence to religious believers, I just think that religion has no logic and little possibility of truth. This is simply my opinion.

Esus · #46 07-05-2005, 01:05 PM

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The one story which has no possibility whatsoever is Noah's Ark. Everyone in the world, black and white, all countries, all nationalities, descended from Noah and his family. How? Which leads me onto another thing: In the Adam and Eve story Adam and Eve have 2 sons, Kain and Abel. So that's 4 humans: Adam, Eve, Kain, Abel. Kain kills Abel, so is banished. Then apparently he meets a princess and falls in love with her or something (I haven't really read the Bible so I don't know, this is just what I've heard). Where did this princess come from?

Jeez, though I'm atheist, I can stilla accept that those stories are peoples interpretations of their beliefs, or what God has told them. In no way are they supposed to be literal (though Literalists would disagree).

Rich · #47 07-05-2005, 01:08 PM

Yeah exactly, I doubt Christians encourage incest.

Dino · #48 07-05-2005, 01:10 PM

They're parables. Nuggets of wisdom, told in the form of a fictional story, which clearly demonstrates the purpose of the wisdom. It's like an example situation that you can avoid by knowing what the story teaches.

In that respect the Bible has some particularly good stories in it. Others make less sense, but I suppose that's what you get from translating it through three different languages, and changing it over a period of hundreds of years.

Rich · #49 07-05-2005, 01:14 PM

Admittedly, the Bible story converted into songs would make a great 10 CD concept album.

Dino · #50 07-05-2005, 01:18 PM

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Admittedly, the Bible story converted into songs would make a great 10 CD concept album.

No! You start singing any and I'll be forced to chain you to an anchor. ò_ó

Abe16 · #51 07-05-2005, 01:28 PM

they made a kid album, it's just like kids bop, God i hate those albums.

Al the Vykker · #52 07-05-2005, 01:39 PM

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I'm a sort of open-minded Catholic. Though i have a belief in God, i also believe in reincarnation and such. I'm not a devout believer of anything, come to think of it, and i loathe the fact that organised Religion tries to pry its way into Politics.

Blech.

I agree a lot with that I'm an extremely open-minded catholic who does not agree with a lot of practices within the actual Catholic Church. I've gone through a few phases starting with being like most children given their faith by their parents and following it blindly growing up. To the point where I was for a time agnostic on and off. To the point where I'm back to being a Christian or like I said very open minded and liberal catholic. There's way too many archaic practices within the church that I dont agree with to the point where I'm basically one to pray when I feel I need to, but not compelled to attend church and hear a very one-sided and conservative approach to life.

I'm also one that is open to everyone's beliefs as long as they don't hurt others. I don't condemn others or force upon them my own beliefs because I don't think that is fair at all and I think that's a big problem with many organized factions of religion today, we don't teach tolerance or acceptance, we only teach to absorb and to condemn non believers.

used:) · #53 07-06-2005, 12:23 PM

I am an atheist but I belive that there is some sort of super natural being that exists outside the confines of the space time continuam. I just don't think the catholics or a few other religions are the right ones to trust on the matter (no offense to those open minded christians on the forums). But in my opinion all religions are the same as many of you have pointed out. According to something I read, the Middle east is where all civilization sprouted from. And in video games, myths, and literature, it all routs back to the same story: an all good all powerful being created the world, but some dick who was almost as high up as he is did some naughty things and was declared lord of evil. It is the same in human nature, we need someone to blame for problems and when someone is the most different in any way, we immediatly take them to be the source of the problem.

A man's called a traitor,
or a liberator.

A rich man's a thief,
or philanthropist.

Is one a crusador?
or ruthless invader?

It's all in which label,
is able to persist.

Munch's Master · #54 07-07-2005, 09:15 AM

Maybe I should have explained myself better. Yes the stories have good morals and can have meaningful interpretations, but what I meant was they probably didn't actually happen. I say that as I think that you can't take the Bible as a literal historical fact book (which some people do) , but think of it as a book wth teachings on how to live. I'm atheist though, so I don't really read it anyway. I was just looking at it from a literal point of view.

Al the Vykker · #55 07-07-2005, 11:00 PM

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Maybe I should have explained myself better. Yes the stories have good morals and can have meaningful interpretations, but what I meant was they probably didn't actually happen. I say that as I think that you can't take the Bible as a literal historical fact book (which some people do) , but think of it as a book wth teachings on how to live. I'm atheist though, so I don't really read it anyway. I was just looking at it from a literal point of view.

That's the same here. I don't take the bible as fact really at all I'd have to say. There are so many archaic traditions potrayed and also it seems that the bible exists more to scare people into believing then welcoming them with loving arms, atleast the final chapters of it.

For example in the bible people are not only condemned for being non believers, their children (I'm referring to revelations) would be slain as well...along with being thrown into pools of fire. What kind of god is that?

Which is why its hard for me to even say I'm a catholic besides being raised and confirmed baptized one etc. I for one also don't believe in hell or atleast not its literal interpretation I believe it could exist in another context, nor purgatory. I do believe in heaven however.

Jacob · #56 07-08-2005, 02:01 AM

I don't know about the other Religions Religious texts, but i know that the Bible itself has being physically raped and degraded by the Vatican as well as other patriarchal figures that got their hands on the few copies of it before the printing press. It's one of the main reasons i don't live my life by it.

I also find it disgusting that they still mention Mary Magdalen as a Prostitute, when she wasn't.

Jacob · #57 07-09-2005, 05:28 PM

I've just been thinking about how the Christians get a really bad portrayal when it comes to their little Religion and how they talk about it, but i've never once heard of a Christian suicide bomber who blew himself up in a vain attempt to spread his message...

soulstice · #58 07-10-2005, 10:39 AM

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In some Bible movie, Jesus said something like: "At least God gave us the strength to do what we want to do." or something.

And if I have to think of God as the creator, I say: He made the universe and left the place, as a clockmaker makes a clockwork working on its own energy.

But I'd say I'm half Atheïst and half Hindu.

How can you be half-atheist and half-Hindu?! It's not possible.

soulstice · #59 07-10-2005, 10:50 AM

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Dino. I understand why you said what you did about Christianity but what a lot of people don't realize is that all religions are the same. All religions believe that they are the only truth. It's not really arrogant. It's just that if one religion makes sense then all other religions must contradict that. And if you think about it Christianity really has the most loving followers. Have you ever had any Muslims or Buddhists knock on your door to tell you how to achieve inner peace or go to heaven? I haven't.

Well, Christianity has always been a missionary religion. Islam is, but Dharmic religions like Hinduism and Buddhism aren't. Also, what you said about Christians being the most loving is an opinion. I could say that Hindus and Buddhists were more loving because of their belief in 'ahimsa,' that all living beings should not be hurt and that people should be vegetarian. Christians, Muslims and Jews believe that animals were placed on this Earth for humans to use as they wish, for sacrifice, slaughter, consumption etc... that doesn't sound very loving. Hindus, Buddhists and Jains condemn animal cruelty and slaughter, so we can't possible say one religion is more loving than the other.

Munch's Master · #60 07-10-2005, 10:53 AM

^^^ Actually it could be. boogie may believe that there are many forms of God, but not exactly God, more prescences of nature. There's what, 10 thousand Hindu gods? Well he may believe in these forms, but think of them as states of nature, rather than of a 'God'. At least that's what I'd guess.