Oddworld Forums > Zulag Two > Off-Topic Discussion


 
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  #61  
11-24-2004, 09:25 AM
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Looks like you made your choice. And I made mine. Whooo.
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  #62  
11-24-2004, 09:41 AM
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Not really. I'm not an atheist. I really want to believe that there is something better. If not for me at least for my children. I can't stand the thought of anything bad happening to my girls. It would kill me. I just have a hard time reconciling what god says with what I wish god would say. I'm a lot more conflicted on this than I've been letting on.
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  #63  
11-24-2004, 09:50 AM
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Sorry for misjudging you. I hope you find some answers.

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  #64  
11-24-2004, 10:26 AM
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I was raised Roman Catholic (and went to a Catholic elementary school.) but am becoming more and more agnostic, so I was influenced at an early age that homosexuality is against my religion. I never really bought into that though, so I don't really give a crap if someone's gay.

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  #65  
11-24-2004, 11:10 AM
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I thought if you were a different Religion you were going to burn in fire-fury Hell water?
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  #66  
11-24-2004, 11:27 AM
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PA, that last post of yours made perfect sense up until the last paragraph. You say that you think homosexuals need to "rethink their life", but then you say that they are loved by Christians and their fellow man. So what exactly is your stance? Also, are you of the belief that homosexuality is a choice?

And I don't understand your last two sentences. Do you think God holds homosexuality against homosexuals?
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  #67  
11-24-2004, 04:16 PM
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OANST, the abomination of homosexuals and whatever, was a part of the Old Testament, when humanity was under the law. Humans are now, since Christ's final sacrifice, under grace. So things such as homosexuality (etc), are no longer looked down upon in the eyes of God.

I explained it better here: http://www.oddworldforums.net/showpo...0&postcount=54

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  #68  
11-25-2004, 11:53 AM
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The fact that Big G punished Adam and Eve for eating from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE says something about the very nature of Christianity.
I do despise it so, when individuals twist facts and infromation (or forget it) to try and prove a misguided point. Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, thank you very much. Do kindly be honest and/or read the material before you discuss it*. Thank you.

:
The question everyone should be asking is whether or not you are willing to worship a god who says it's okay to murder people just because they are in love.
Please stop confusing love with lust. Thank you.

For Jacob:
Please explain how the Bible is an incarnation of control. Thank you.

For Nate:
Romans 1:18-32
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
You're welcome.





*Same for the rest of ya!
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  #69  
11-25-2004, 12:51 PM
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Okay, did I misunderstand your previous post?

:
In Genisis, the two individuals known as Adam and Eve, about faced, and failed to looking into God and his Wisdom (AKA turned their backs on him). He had but one rule, and it was shattered. Thus, sin came unto the world, via Lucipher (The Devil). Homosexuality was one of it's incarnations. I shall locate the explicit verses where such is stated, if it is asked of me by any individual.
I thought you meant that all this was said in Genesis. As I now understand it, you're saying that Adam and Eve committed original sin in Genesis, which brought evil into the world as explained in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Is that correct?
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  #70  
11-25-2004, 01:36 PM
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'Please stop confusing love with lust. Thank you.'

Please show some proof that Homosexuals lust after each other and are incapable of loving each other. Thank you.

'Please explain how the Bible is an incarnation of control. Thank you.'

In the sense that the Monks that got a hold of the original Bible to translate it, thought "I know...this says this...and that says that...but if i put that near this and this near that then...A-HA!" and began adding parts themselves and/or rearranging parts to control society and mould it into something that they wanted it to be.
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  #71  
11-25-2004, 01:47 PM
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Please stop confusing love with lust. Thank you.
Waitwaitwait. . . are you saying homosexuals can't be in love with members of the same sex? I think you need to get your facts straight. Why do you think so many gay partners want to get married? Just to spite conservative straight white men?

EDIT: Jake beat me to the punch. Oh well.
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  #72  
11-25-2004, 04:43 PM
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Okay, did I misunderstand your previous post?



I thought you meant that all this was said in Genesis. As I now understand it, you're saying that Adam and Eve committed original sin in Genesis, which brought evil into the world as explained in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Is that correct?
*Gives Nate a prize.*

Correct. Genisis merely (to my knowledge) proclaims the entrance of sin. Other books devulge the exact nature of it.

NOTE: Time for Thanksgiving dinner. Must go!
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  #73  
11-25-2004, 06:14 PM
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Okay I understand you now. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I understand you.
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  #74  
11-25-2004, 09:08 PM
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As I've been trying to explain, the laws set down in the Old Testament have no control over us now. It is the New Testament which we draw things off. As I've stated twice before, we are under grace. Not the law. Meaning the laws set down on Homosexuality are absolutely moot. It is society and the Papacy that are misguiding people from this often overlooked fact.

:
Please stop confusing love with lust. Thank you.
I could just as easily say that Heterosexual lust is mistaken as love. You seem to be someone of a learned background, but all I can see here is an opinion drawn from the common societal beliefs (that Homosexuality is all about lust - simply because that is what is depicted on TV). Homosexuals can feel love for eachother, and I am rather upset that you would deny the existence of love between two people.

Oh, and the Bible is a means to control. It's just another book in history that has been used to rule many kingdoms / countries / etc. The very fact that there are laws in the Bible easily demonstrate control. Finally, the Bible is not a direct fax sent from God, it is an interpretation made by humans. It is therefore not exempt from human error.

Alcar...
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  #75  
11-25-2004, 11:37 PM
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Alcar, you're so damn awesome. It's great how you use your knowledge of religion as a means to help people! I'm sure that's what it was intended for in the first place!
Meet me behind Welcomes and Birthdays later.
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  #76  
11-26-2004, 11:27 AM
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Hmm, for the people who think homosexuality is wrong or against your religion, do you think they should be denied marriage? This should be interesting...
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  #77  
11-26-2004, 12:33 PM
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I wouldn't mind if Homosexuals got married and such, but here's something interesting I found out. When gay couples were getting married against the law in San Fransisco, Tom Green(the polygamist) called his lawyer. If gay marriage is legalized, Tom Green is going to sue for polygamy to be recognized by law. Certain people think that if one alternative lifestyle is accpeted into society, that other lifestyles will have to be accepted as well.

An interesting situation.

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  #78  
11-26-2004, 04:37 PM
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I'm rather liberal on the subject of gay marriages. I think the law should recognise a civil union, but I'm not so sure about marriages (in which the Church is involved). It's rather iffy in my mind. But I'll make up my mind sooner or later

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  #79  
11-26-2004, 04:54 PM
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I think the whole "let's give them something separate but equal" is bullpoop. We all know how well that worked out with African-Americans. It's ridiculous to not allow a couple to marry because they have matching genitalia. And what's wrong with their being married in a church, Alcar? Haven't you been saying this whole time that the Bible has nothing against homosexuals? Christians can be gay too, afterall.

Hmm... polygamists... Well, not giving them the right to marry more than one person won't stop them from being with more than one, so sure, why not give them their rights too. Who would it harm? Would it somehow give some make the marriage of some couple across the country or even down the street impure?

Marriage Protection Act... give me a break.

EDIT: Is gay marriage banned in any other countries?
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  #80  
11-26-2004, 05:27 PM
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Ambi, one reason I'm not decided upon it, is I haven't actually checked any Bible references about same sex marriage, or just marriage in itself. It would be foolish of me to open my mouth and say something without evidence. While my moral and ethical stance on it is that homosexual marriage should be allowed, I still need that precious irony that the bible holds over fundamentalists

Although, I guess I worded what I wanted to say wrong. To clarify, I would be perfectly happy to attend and condone a marriage between people of the same sex. And as far as I know, some religions (or maybe just some rebel parishes ) do actually marry same sex couples.

Oh, and yeah, gay marriage is banned over here in Australia. As well are different laws reguarding the age of consent. I mean, they're there primarily to prevent pregnancy, yet the legal age for homosexual men is 18. Heterosexuals it is 16. And Lesbians aren't even recognised.

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  #81  
11-27-2004, 08:23 AM
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I'm a bit iffy when it comes to Gay marriage. Because i'm all for the Church and Religion staying out of Government/legal matters. And i think that if we were to say "Look, let Fags marry!" to the Church, it wouldn't be fair.

Besides, Queers can marry in Church. You just have to find the correct Church that'll allow you to.

And i agree with Amber, what's so wrong with Polygamy? So long as everybody is all for it, and all partys know, i don't see a problem.

Saying about the Bible thing though has intrigued me. The Bible condemns Homosexual shenanigans - but does it condemn Homosexual marriage? Or is that just another thing that the far right are making up? Like they did with Abortion. And i have heard a few cases against plastic surgery. Which i don't really understand. Because surely if God is all knowing, he'd know that Abortion and plastic surgery would be about soon. And so he should've commented on it in the Bible. But he didn't. So, does this mean he doesn't have anything against it?

EDIT - And apparently Parliament has passed a law making Queer marriage legal over here. Though i find it doubtful, 'cos i haven't heard anything about it! But i find it silly that such a small thing is "illegal". As in...an arrestable offence. Silleh!
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  #82  
11-27-2004, 09:49 AM
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The problem I have with polygamy is that I find it extremely doubtful that one person can love multiple spouses equally. I mean, really love them. The concept kind of goes against the whole idea of true love. Ya know, your ONE true love. Granted, love isn't a prerequisite for marriage. It should be. I don't find gay marriage nearly as much of an "attack on the sacred, God-ordained union of marriage" (actual words from some bullshit flier we got in the mail) as the shallow snobs and white trash Vegas couples who marry for money, excitement, or what have you, and undoubtedly get divorced or have entirely unhappy marriages. I think polygamists marrying would be equally mocking.
Of course, I can't say conclusively that a person can't love multiple people equally and strongly enough that they would want to marry them. In all fairness, if gays were given the right to marry, polygamists would have to be given the right to marry as well. But I don't see either of those groups having any major breakthroughs in the near future, especially under the Bush administration, so I guess it's okay for now.

I know it sounds odd that I'm so avidly against polygamists even though I'm such a staunch supporter of other things. I just hate the bastards. I mean, do you really think polygamists would marry for love?
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  #83  
11-27-2004, 11:12 AM
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Not about Homosexuality, but in the words of Marilyn Manson:

I went to God just to see,
And I was looking at me,
Saw Heaven and Hell were lies,
When i'm God everyone dies....
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  #84  
11-27-2004, 01:18 PM
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There is no reason that Gays should be denied marriage. How about instead of legalising gay marriage we ban ALL the legal types of marriage, then everyone would be in the same situation.

Just a thought.
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  #85  
11-27-2004, 06:07 PM
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I've came across verses in the Old Testament that almost sound like they are condemning homosexuals. The verses never flat out say it, but it seems as though they hint that God isn't pleased with it. Well, actually not the individuals but their actions. There's also parts that seem to discourage sexual acts before marriage. So maybe the Bible isn't exactly against homosexuals because of who they are but because any sexual stuff takes place outside of marriage due to their inability to be married. Sort of a catch 22--They can't get married because of their "impurity"; however, they can't be "pure" since they aren't allowed to be wed. (Random thoughts)
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  #86  
11-27-2004, 06:38 PM
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I've came across verses in the Old Testament that almost sound like they are condemning homosexuals. The verses never flat out say it, but it seems as though they hint that God isn't pleased with it.
Did you see this one?

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

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  #87  
11-27-2004, 07:11 PM
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'Please stop confusing love with lust. Thank you.'

Please show some proof that Homosexuals lust after each other and are incapable of loving each other. Thank you.

'Please explain how the Bible is an incarnation of control. Thank you.'

In the sense that the Monks that got a hold of the original Bible to translate it, thought "I know...this says this...and that says that...but if i put that near this and this near that then...A-HA!" and began adding parts themselves and/or rearranging parts to control society and mould it into something that they wanted it to be.
I shall provide my answers in the upcoming, "Nepharski's Guide to the Bible and...Stuff." Coming soon, to a forum near you.

:
Okay I understand you now. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I understand you.
Thank you. That is all I require.

:
As I've been trying to explain, the laws set down in the Old Testament have no control over us now. It is the New Testament which we draw things off. As I've stated twice before, we are under grace. Not the law.
True...humans are indeed under grace, as opposed to law...but Homosexuality is still clearly defined as sinful in the New Testiment.

For your viewing pleasure...
Romans 1:18-32
1 Corinthians 6:9-11

:
Hmm, for the people who think homosexuality is wrong or against your religion, do you think they should be denied marriage? This should be interesting...
I am against it. Two rather large reasons for this. I believe that Homosexuality is both morally wrong and unnatural. I already tolerate their actions, but showing support for this shows approval as well. The other reason...

:
When gay couples were getting married against the law in San Fransisco, Tom Green(the polygamist) called his lawyer. If gay marriage is legalized, Tom Green is going to sue for polygamy to be recognized by law. Certain people think that if one alternative lifestyle is accpeted into society, that other lifestyles will have to be accepted as well.
My second aforementioned reason. When such happens, who is to stop the 80-year-old from marriage to the 7-year-old? Who is to stop massive "orgy marriges?" Or mutliple partners. Or animals? Some of you other individuals may feel I am off the deep end, but trust me...it could happen.
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  #88  
11-27-2004, 07:46 PM
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The 7 year old thing can't happen as there is a law that states sex with anyone thirteen or under is statutory rape, whether the kid is willing or not.

Anywho, morality is a matter of opinion. Equality... is a bit more than opinion. People either have the right to marry the person(s) of their choice or they don't. Polygamy works for some people, so to them it is moral. Again, I ask, who does it harm? A child being wed to 40 year old would be very potentially harmful to the child. A loving family that has like 4 moms... doesn't harm anyone. As for the dog thing, were you honestly suggesting that allowing same sex marriages would lead to legalized bestiality? (Oh dear, I just got a flashback of the bestiality thread.) Anyway, that could be seen as harmful to the animal. Plus, animals are seen as property. I really doubt marriage will ever be given to anything that isn't human.
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  #89  
11-27-2004, 08:40 PM
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There's a reason gay marriage is the issue at hand, and not polygamy or bestiality. A significant portion of the population believes it should, in fact, be legalized. The jump from hetero marriage to homo marriage is much smaller, than say, marriage to multiple partners, thus will gather a much larger amount of support. Such an abundance of the US, if not the world is against polygamy it's a no contest in regards to legalizing it. I'd wager bestiality even moreso.

Now if you want to go into more technical reasons backing why gay marriage doesn't result in polygamy, I'll try to conjure some reasoning. Marriage has long been considered between two people, namely a man and a women, created and mantained as such. In at least my opinion, the main calling card for marriage is a loving bond between two people. Expanding to a coupling of two males, as opposed to a male and female, is simply a small expansion on the idea of a bond between two people. Polygamy comes from the entirely different angle that the intiment bond is shared by more than two people, an ideal that to my knowledge has remained consistently underground and unpracticed throughout history. Or something like that. My stance is a work in progress. Cut a bit of slack here, I've never bothered trying to type up any definitive stance such as this.

But once again, rest assured, polygamy has no hope of ever being legalized (at least for several generations). Outside of sexual orgies, the only news you hear of people "loving" more than one person rests in marital affairs. This idea has been trampled down so much by common belief and media display, it would be nothing more than a bump in the road. Granted, legalization of gay marriage would bring more media attention to the idea of 3+ parties participating in a marriage, but there's such minimal support outside of radicalist democratic parties, it's a fruitless cause. Sort of like Nader running for president.

Marriage between young and old runs somewhere along the same lines. There are POSSIBLY a few examples of significant age differences for desired marriage, between one party under and one party drastically under and one drastically over the age of consent. However, I feel the lack of hormonal agression in a young child would come close to, if not entirely, preventing the desire for such. Small children try to imitate what they've been brought up seeing, alongside medial portrayal of relationships. This portrayal has remained untouched, and will probably remain unchanged, for generations to come. There's no worry there. It isn't until the teen years couples even start to get serious about marriage, or a life together. The problem that needs to be focused on here, in fact, is unsafe sexual practice and relationships fueled on by infatuation.

Bestiality is so farfetched, I don't think a relevant argument even needs to be constructed at this point. Sure, you can stumble upon animal sex on the internet and such. But the property aspect, ownership ideal, and inabiity for the animal are inescapable boundaries. Not to mention, ANIMALS HAVE A SIGNIFICANTLY SHORTER LIFESPAN. If a person is crazy enough to think they and a household pet are in love, then you can count on them to take the relationship seriously. And the death of the animal in a marital relationship is something I'd like to see, purely from a psychological standpoint at least.

So you see what I'm saying? Nepharski, your "If...then" stance sounds like something being thrown out by an overly careful corporate lawyer concered with liability. It's like trying to say warning labels should be put on tall buildings, as you could fall from the top and kill yourself. Or, maybe that's a bad example. But you're trying to say something so abstract can arise, even though all common sense and statistical fact point against it. The mass public doesn't believe in polygamy, minor marriage, or bestiality. Sensible fact. A good portion of the mass public dose, however, believe in gay marriage.

Accept this is a fact you will have to tolerate, as it's an issue that is only going to exponentially increase given time. The world is becoming ever increasingly liberal. Now, the conservative bunch can try to unite and crush these upcoming ideals, or it can learn to keep to itself on issues that don't affect their lives. Two men married in Maine doesn't mean an elderly hetero couple in Oregon love matters less.

You can't legislate morality. Prohibition has proven that.

And anyways, what kind of guy hates lesbians?

(Damn, this took a long time.)

EDIT: It's about time for me to be off now. Nepharski, I see you're typing a response. I'll pick up my slack tomorrow.

Last edited by Majic; 11-27-2004 at 09:28 PM..
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11-27-2004, 09:36 PM
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Nepharski
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First and Foremost, I do admit that these claims are indeed far-fetched. After all...
:
Some of you other individuals may feel I am off the deep end...
However, I must stress that none of these are impossible. Let us turn towards...the snowball effect. Gay Marrige is seen as a, dare I say it, minor* issue, when compared to somewhat larger polygamy, and the absurd size of Bestiality. But, if Homosexual union is recognized, the next smallest issue will demand recognition, and the next...and the next...and the next. Suddenly the most minor issue is now the largest one. Do you see? None of these claims are impossible. Yes, highly unusual and extraordinarly unlikely, but still. Slowly, more and more increasingly, "radical," beliefs will be pressed upon us. In my opinion, legalizing Gay Marrige is but the first step, down a dark and twisted road.


:
And anyways, what kind of guy hates lesbians?
This kind of guy. Why any man or woman would approve of Homosexual activities is beyond me (Unless, of course...they practiced such deeds themselves).

If Homosexuality was, in fact, natural, all the homosexuals would have long been extinct, for failure to pass the genes onwards (Two Gays or Lesbians cannot give birth to offspring).





*Size in this argument is refering how far-fetched the concept is. The more the idea seams realistic, the smaller it is.
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