Why heaven and hell can’t exist

Joshy · #1 10-04-2003, 10:14 AM

The bible itself says in Revelations, that God is destined to win and all that could ever happen has already been determined to happen. According to this the fight against God is useless because you're destined to burn in hell since God will without a doubt win the fight between good and evil (so act now, hurry hurry and save your soul forever before it's too late!!). This of coarse sounds like the scarcity law you learn in your marketing class in High School.

A second point made is of common sense amongst anyone who knows of the bible, is that God is all knowing and ever-present. This would point to fact that God is immune to time. He knows what will happen at all times, and knows the outcome of all thought and action.

With the simple knowledge you now have of God it will be clear that his very existence contradicts his existence. You see...if God is all-knowing and is aware of the outcome of every action then he is responsible for all evil, and has been deliberate to instill pain and suffering amongst all life. You see...with his infinite knowledge of future events, he created the angel Lucifer with free will, and was aware that Lucifer would in turn defy him and have to be tossed into hell. So God created Satan knowing exactly what would happen and allowed it to happen on purpose. By Christian logic then, God is the true spawn of all evil.

Since God represents all that is good and is omnipresent, he must also exist in hell. However, God can't exist in hell because he is the essence of all good. And so God would be flawed if a part of him did encapsulate evil inside any part of space and time. Unless of course that space is his creation, and in so he would be become the creator of that evil. God making Satan without knowing the outcome would be a mistake at a level of enormous magnitude. A flaw in simple terms. But, if he is flawed he can't be God because God exists outside time and would see his own mistakes before and after they would occur. In layman's terms, he can never make any move without having every ****ing possibility accounted for. He's the greatest ****ing Chessmaster in existence. He is without the ability to do evil, have evil in him, or make a ****ing mistake. Even if you cut his arms off and gauged his eyes out he would still hunt you down and **** your girlfriend for an eternity while you blinked. So why create life then? The only rational explanation is for a diversion to the boredom of his own infinite knowledge and presence. Or as we see it, the human experience.

We have all heard the stories from the Bible, and being realistic one would concur that the stories in the bible are all ****ing impossible unless they are historic remnants of advanced beings from distant planets from whom we were bred, used, and left behind. Let's face it, religion itself is full of numerous contradictions, while science fails to link modern man to his roots. And there's Noah's arc which could not possibly fit two of all the animals and insects in the world into a boat if they stuffed them with a junkyard trash compactor, while modern archeology finds that the modern man existed even before his cave inhabited predecessors.

By Christian terms the only reasonable explanation for a God would be to satisfy the hunger of a sick power-hungry egomaniac. I mean...guys have G-Spots up their asses and fags are sinning? What's that about? The ****ing guy invented dead rotting pussies and road kill. He thought up the idea for shiteating and pig****ing. God is more obscene than the worst hardcore porn publisher for he is the idea which gives hold for all experience. God is the manufacturer of every conceivable thing that is right and wrong with the world, because he made the world.

A test you say? God actually using energy to refine or double check something he could destroy, recreate, and perfect before you read another word seems careless or redundant at best. He's ****ing perfect. Why waste your time if you already know the answers before the questions are asked unless it's that he revels in the pure sadistic enjoyment of every sin he condones? No, not a test. For God finds little enjoyment in our human trials. A process of spiritual enlightenment. Our body a vehicle to build the tools we need for our journey to the next plateau. One that once you discover your relationship to him, you will be free of this material existence and continue to become closer to him. A journey willed upon yourself, and that only you yourself will finish.

Splat · #2 10-04-2003, 11:43 AM

I haven't bothered to read all of this but I will tell you, God made time, therefore it is common sence that he will exist out of it. Second, God knows what's gonna happen to all humans, but not what's gonna happen to angels. He didn't know the lucifer was gonna turn evil, he just dealt with it the best way he could.
3, he allowed satan to tempt Adam and Eve so they would have free will, if they hadn't had the chance to disobey God they wouldn't have free will, they would simply do everything God told them to do. That is the same reason he doesn't just kill us or forcefully convert us all into Christians right now, he's giving us the choice, he's giving us free will.
God can be anywhere on EARTH, but he doesn't go to Hell, he has given that realm to Satan to have on his own. The fact that God is omnipotent is in Earth standards only, but Heaven and Hell are outside of Earth standards and time. As I said before, he knows most of what's gonna happen on Earth, but not outside of Earth standards.
His reason for creating life was a mix of lonelyness and boredom. If you lived alone, completely cut off from everything, including desiese and sickness, so you could never die, you would want some company. So he made people. He didn't want mindless drones as friends so he gave us free will. To do this, he had to let us cope with temptation as well. He's only all-powerful in our standards remember.
In the case of Noah's ark, your forgetting that God has C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E control over all living things on Earth. He chooses not to use his power over humans so they can have free will. Buit occasionally he calls creatures to do his will. He can call animals to get on an ark. He could fit every member of the forums in to a phone boothe! He doesn't need to follow Earth logic cause he made Earth logic, everything from the fact that all substances on Earth are made up of 108 elements to the fact that gravity keeps us on Earth.
All your stuff about humans massive amount of sinning comes back to free will. He gives us the choice to sin so we have the oppertunity to make our own choices (we generally tend to make the wrong ons though). And he created recources that we can use to develope. It was our choice to start inhaling tar. And it was our choice to start... you know!
Life isn't a test, and if it wasn't for all human sinning we'd still be enjoying life for it's original purpose, to be friends with God and live with him in perfection.

Any more questions?

Seargentbig · #3 10-04-2003, 11:57 AM

:

Originally posted by Splat
I haven't bothered to read all of this but I will tell you, God made time, therefore it is common sence that he will exist out of it. Second, God knows what's gonna happen to all humans, but not what's gonna happen to angels. He didn't know the lucifer was gonna turn evil, he just dealt with it the best way he could.
3, he allowed satan to tempt Adam and Eve so they would have free will, if they hadn't had the chance to disobey God they wouldn't have free will, they would simply do everything God told them to do. That is the same reason he doesn't just kill us or forcefully convert us all into Christians right now, he's giving us the choice, he's giving us free will.
God can be anywhere on EARTH, but he doesn't go to Hell, he has given that realm to Satan to have on his own. The fact that God is omnipotent is in Earth standards only, but Heaven and Hell are outside of Earth standards and time. As I said before, he knows most of what's gonna happen on Earth, but not outside of Earth standards.
His reason for creating life was a mix of lonelyness and boredom. If you lived alone, completely cut off from everything, including desiese and sickness, so you could never die, you would want some company. So he made people. He didn't want mindless drones as friends so he gave us free will. To do this, he had to let us cope with temptation as well. He's only all-powerful in our standards remember.
In the case of Noah's ark, your forgetting that God has C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E control over all living things on Earth. He chooses not to use his power over humans so they can have free will. Buit occasionally he calls creatures to do his will. He can call animals to get on an ark. He could fit every member of the forums in to a phone boothe! He doesn't need to follow Earth logic cause he made Earth logic, everything from the fact that all substances on Earth are made up of 108 elements to the fact that gravity keeps us on Earth.
All your stuff about humans massive amount of sinning comes back to free will. He gives us the choice to sin so we have the oppertunity to make our own choices (we generally tend to make the wrong ons though). And he created recources that we can use to develope. It was our choice to start inhaling tar. And it was our choice to start... you know!
Life isn't a test, and if it wasn't for all human sinning we'd still be enjoying life for it's original purpose, to be friends with God and live with him in perfection.

Any more questions?

I have two things to say:
1. Splat has just answered several questions that have bugged me for years.
2. Hear, hear!

Jacob · #4 10-04-2003, 12:06 PM

Josh swore...hee-tee-hee!!

*Prances away*

Anybody noticed how the Christian peeps will take it in turns to quell arguments. In past posts were i have contributed to contradict them it has gone like this -

PA speaks
I fend off PA
Then Oddguy takes a shot
He continues, recruiting more to his aid
I battle them and quell them
Oddguy continues to battle
Pinky makes an appearance
I slay her
Oddguy still battles
I still battle
Oddguy retreats

Or something like that...

SeaRex · #5 10-04-2003, 01:29 PM

Fan-FECKING-tastic, Joshy! You've somehow managed to solve the great mystery that has plagued hundreds of thousands of great minds and philosiphers over countless ages! Why, surely all of the orthodox christians will bow at your feet!

Kudos.

But seriously folks, it was an interesting ramble. However, I would like to point out this:

:

God is more obscene than the worst hardcore porn publisher for he is the idea which gives hold for all experience. God is the manufacturer of every conceivable thing that is right and wrong with the world, because he made the world.

In my opinion... not quite. Even if your ateist or agnostic, let's say that God exists... just for the sake of argument. Now, God created man and instilled in him a free mind, correct? Because of this, it is man that makes all of these "horrible" things, for it is man that concieves the ideas. On the other hand, one could argue that God indirectly created these things, as he did give man free will. But I think it may be a wee bit lofty to say he is entirely responsible for the actions of man.

I'm done with my ramble for now...

Rich · #6 10-04-2003, 03:23 PM

If Adam and Eve were the only humans god created then we are all inbred. If Noahs ark happened then all the animals in the world are inbred.
Its so obvious that the old testament is shite.
The bible itself and heaven and hell are all made up things for people to believe in along with God.

(Sorry Christians)

God may exist but he's probably pissed off because of us for all the crap we came up with about him.

oddguy · #7 10-04-2003, 07:30 PM

:

PA speaks
I fend off PA
Then Oddguy takes a shot
He continues, recruiting more to his aid
I battle them and quell them
Oddguy continues to battle
Pinky makes an appearance
I slay her
Oddguy still battles
I still battle
Oddguy retreats

Or something like that...

I'm glad I get some credit from you for being a formidable opponent, but alas, I think I've given up on you, Jacob. I guess we'll wait and see who's right when the time comes.

-oddguy

Sekto Springs · #8 10-04-2003, 08:27 PM

heaven and hell is right here on earth, you just have to find it...

paramiteabe · #9 10-04-2003, 08:43 PM

Well here we go again with religion of course! Whats there to say about your theory you got there. Let me see, ah yes nothing. surprise surprise never would have expected that to come from good old PA did ya? Lets just say I learn from the past and that argueing about this is completely useless. Nobody is going to change your mind set only you can so there we go.

Paramiteabe...

Dave · #10 10-04-2003, 09:00 PM

I have a somewhat related comment. I put it into my own words.

I hear that God was completely and utterly depressed with the actions of Noah (as in Noah's Ark) and his generation. So he decides, "Hey, Noah. I'll give you a chance to make up for your generation's mistakes. Build me an ark and take two of each animal in it. Hurry up, kid, cuz in a little while I'm gonna flood this planet and kill all of you. Get cracking."

Noah, of course, was terrified, and spent--accoring to the bible--half of his two-hundred and some odd years life building the arc and gathering the animals.

So he set sail and it rains for 40 days and 40 nights.Everyone not on the arc drowns ... except the fishies.

Then when it clears up, God gives Noah a call. "Dude ... I guess I really shouldn't have done that. Never again will I purge this world with water."

Now. If God was so mad at the human race that he could destroy it, how bad were they? If he hasn't yet cleansed our generation, what with all our murder and war, etc., how much worse was Noah's generation that we haven't been purged?

Sure, he says he won't give the planet a thourough shower any time soon, but He's God for goodness' sake! He has quite a few tools at his disposal. He could rain fire, He could uproot corpses an mutilate the living, He could turn the ground to quicksand and suck us up, He could make us all explode from the inside if he felt like it, and all with the twitch of a finger.

And another point! He made everything! So, he made all the materials for weapon-making and bombs! Sure, you can argue that humans would've found another way to make these things ... but think about it, anyways.

That's all, no more!

Peace!

***Alcar*** · #11 10-04-2003, 10:54 PM

Christianity exists to instill hope into people, and to explain what Science cannot. Simple.

If you don't believe in Christianity, good for you. If you do, good for you.

Alcar...

oddguy · #12 10-04-2003, 11:28 PM

:

Originally posted by Alcar
Christianity exists to instill hope into people, and to explain what Science cannot. Simple.

If you don't believe in Christianity, good for you. If you do, good for you.

Alcar...

Very nicely put.

How about us Christians don't bother you other guys, and likewise you guys respect us the same way? Instead of trying to disprove one another, lets just go about our own ways of worship and leave each other alone. I mean, if you guys are trying to change my way of thinking, it's not going to happen and I'm sure I couldn't change your minds. What is the point I ask?

-oddguy

Mac the Janitor · #13 10-05-2003, 02:51 AM

:

Originally posted by Alcar
Christianity exists to instill hope into people, and to explain what Science cannot. Simple.

If you don't believe in Christianity, good for you. If you do, good for you.

Alcar...

Wow. I totally agree with you, Alcar.

I'm beginning to respect you more and more...you're opinions are very well established, you never intentionally offend anyone, and you're very mature. Plus, you look hot.

Sekto Springs · #14 10-05-2003, 02:54 AM

plus he's a demented madman who bans people to feed his ego

Facsimile · #15 10-05-2003, 06:50 AM

Yeah, see, no.
How can you still be crying about that?

Splat · #16 10-05-2003, 09:45 AM

Just to back to what Dave said, after the whole arc thing, God thought that we would take a hint and start following him again. Unfortunately, we didn't. But God, trusting us, promised that he would never wipe out most of the human race ever again. If he hadn't made that promise, the trees would alll be uprooted and it would be raining fire and so on.

The bit about guns, God gave us metal as a recourse to help us live. It was humans who turned them in to guns and weopons.

I'm not saying you should all believe what I say and run in to the churches and convert, I'm just giving my point of view in a hope that I may help some people who weren't sure what they believed and stuff.

***Alcar*** · #17 10-05-2003, 12:01 PM

Mac, ta. I do try my best to groom myself

As for opinions, they are something that can never be changed without the owner's full consent. It takes an awful lot to change an opinion, and when it happens, it more than likely leaves the person in shock or disbelief.

As I've said before, you can't prove nor disprove Christianity. Both sides have equal arguments, and one has to learn to live with both.

I know I've tried my hardest to live my life in accordance to the core beliefs of Christianity, and in my opinion, I think I'll live my life great this way.

However, yes, I do love a good and fair argument now and then. Especially when you have so many facts, hehe, silly Jeremy and his little knowledge on homosexuality. He didn't know what he had coming

Alcar...

Lucipher · #18 10-05-2003, 12:43 PM

A fantastic post Joshy! it is exactly my point in my thread,Why bother with religion? as it is nothing but false beliefs,Also if there was a heaven why are people so naturally scared of dying? I have been trying to say this in my own thread but no one seems to pay attention. You may have changed the forums beliefs and that has achieved my goal and i thank you for it, Now i am no longer needed.

Jacob · #19 10-05-2003, 01:04 PM

:

you never intentionally offend anyone

Which is annoying...

At the end of the day people shouldn't care what deity others believe in. People SHOULD however care about the discrimination certain religions make people have.

I just watched 'Cruel Intentions 2' and even though its not as good as the first it still is quite amusing. Made me realise its thooper been a bytch and that i shouldn't change...i'm gonna get worse at College...yeh, thooper!!

Splat · #20 10-05-2003, 04:34 PM

:

Originally posted by Lucipher
AAlso if there was a heaven why are people so naturally scared of dying? I have been trying to say this in my own thread but no one seems to pay attention.

I think that that may be that not everyone is afraid of dying. I'm not afraid of dying, what is there to be afraid of?
I think the reason some people are afraid of dying is that they want to keep existing. In an athiests veiw, dying is the end, and they don't want an end.

Jacob · #21 10-05-2003, 08:08 PM

I can't wait to die, it'll be like getting to the top of a Rollercoaster. I also want something amusing on my tombstone. Or to say something funny before i die (but only if it was among strangers, like i was knocked down or something). Yeh. Thooper. Huzzah!!

Dave · #22 10-05-2003, 11:08 PM

Hah hah. I'd put something like "All your base are belong to us" or "I told you I was sick!" on my tombstone.

I believe in an afterlife. Nothing fancy. It's more of a ... next life. You die here and go to some other plane of existence. Then you die there and move on again. Et cetera, et cetera. "There are more worlds than these," as Stephen King says.

Then there's this one perfect plane that may be considered heaven. Likewise there is a plane where no good can be found, and it is a comparable hell.

But that's just what I say. Not a big deal.

I'm a dope.

Joshy · #23 10-06-2003, 12:45 AM

Facsimile · #24 10-06-2003, 06:31 AM

:

Originally posted by Jacob
I just watched 'Cruel Intentions 2' and even though its not as good as the first it still is quite amusing.

Tell me, how do they continue on with the guy being dead?

Jacob · #25 10-06-2003, 05:17 PM

:

Tell me, how do they continue on with the guy being dead?

It's a prequel. When Sebastian met Kathryn, as it were. T'was quite good, not as good as the first...but still. Amusing parts though like when Kathryn is teaching this random Geeky girl how to Horse ride -

"Up, down, forward, back, faster...faster...grind in to the saddle. Up, down, forward, back, faster...faster"

It doesn't have the same actors in either, but they do a good job nonetheless. The Deputy Head part is funny aswell...

Kathryn: "Quiet. I'm trying to imagine someone attractive as you do that."

Tee-Hee!! I aspire to be Kathryn, she rocks my socks!!

Splat · #26 10-07-2003, 06:50 PM

Is there any serious response that I could make to that? Cause I really don't know what to say to match that!

Just, if Jesus didn't exist then why is our calendar set around him (BC-before Christ/AD-Some Greek or Latin phrase meaning after nativity of birth).

Abeguy · #27 10-07-2003, 07:27 PM

:

Originally posted by Joshy

that is scary, but i don't see it in my bible
So i suppose that next we'll be hearing that the first and the last letter in the bible make up the first word in the Bible!

and for all you know, it might

I have to go
Today.

Does anyone think
Oddworld is
Entering Extintion
Supposebly?

Oddfan · #28 10-07-2003, 08:08 PM

I am very dissapointed I am not targeting anyone but all of you who say you are christians don't act like true christians. those of you who are not christians and are trying to say it's not true have no real or good proof I could type millions of things that would prove to you god is real but I don't have time to type that much. i'm just very ashamed of all of you.

Dave · #29 10-07-2003, 08:20 PM

note: BC is, indeed, Before Christ.
AD is Latin, Anno Domini, which means In the year of our lord.

Just thought some one you may want to know.

Secondly, I was raised as a Cardboard Christian--I only celebrate Christmas and Easter. Even then, I have my doubts in God Himself. I'm one of those people who has to see it to believe it. If I were to be privileged enough to see The Big Guy and he wants to go get some ice cream, I'll believe in him. How I honor him may not change, sadly. But I will at least be able to ask him to clear it all up for us.

He doesn't force us to do his will. He screws with our surroundings and attempts to influence us, so it seems. Ah, well. I don't think I know what I'm talking about.

Wakka wakka doo-doo yeah!

Mac the Janitor · #30 10-07-2003, 09:14 PM

:

Originally posted by Dave
note: BC is, indeed, Before Christ.
AD is Latin, Anno Domini, which means In the year of our lord.

Well, yeh, cuz if it truly meant After Death, then there'd be those 30-40 some years inbetween when he was alive that wouldn't have numbers...