the chicken and newt things: bad idea

Fez · #1 09-05-2003, 03:46 PM

when i saw the thread about Steefs oddessy i though "Great, another brilliant game from OWI" all the past oddworld games have been a massive success so this one must be. The target audience are teens, like most of us. Now oddworld has had a dark side to everything in it, everything has seemed evil and dark. This would be great on the target audience. So in the new game, Steef and the hunter? great, still keeping to the dark side of things. Now we get chickens...in farm yard clothes...and little newt things. How (from the pics) do they fit in with the games? we see all these cool, things from past games. So is OWI turning into childs games!? at first i though they were expanding on their target audience, but they have made so much money making the other games for a teen audience, why change to touchy feely animals? Has the corporation been overrun by greed!?!!?!?!

i'm sure Max will back me up here.

***Xavier*** · #2 09-05-2003, 03:57 PM

well, the same question was asked when MO came out...
only AO and AE were realy dark, but Oddworld 4 is "supposed" to be a bit more dark then MO

Jacob · #3 09-05-2003, 04:03 PM

Max sent me the vid, but for some reason it doesn't work...i hear the voices (go Steefs voice) but can't see the images...hmmm...Max, did u copy it? Or is it just a w*nker in general?

But i don't think the Newts look that bad...

Fez · #4 09-05-2003, 04:03 PM

well they've done a great job doing that eh? i wet myself when i see lots of "hickens"

T-nex · #5 09-05-2003, 04:34 PM

Well, i think that the games are turning childish...
Just seeing those "Salamanders" made me almost cry(I mean it).
When i saw the Hickens, ithoght: This is a mistake, they have to be from another game... Bot no...
And this Karate Blob, hes cute but doesn't fit in oddworlrd, he is not oddworldish enogh. Anyone agree with me??
Í am soo disapointed that they don't use the SHELL POUCHER!! It seemed sooo cool. A real oddworld creature you know.
All those new creatures just look like som Low-polygon creatures, made for kids....

This i my oppinion about the Steef game. But i'll buy it anyway when i comes out.

***Wil*** · #6 09-05-2003, 04:55 PM

I support Ferill's views on the character design in Oddworld, or rather of what we've seen of it, and I'm sure people know it. The salamanders/newts, the toad-blob and of course the infamous 'Hickens'. I have to say when I saw those chicken hillbillies for the first time on the Forums, I felt my insides do a double take, that's how shocked I was at the dreadfulness of their design. They look more suited to Crash Bandicoot, and there is no way I can see them existing alongside Mudokons, Sligs and Glukkons. What's worse than their un-Oddworld appearance is their clichéd, generic appearance, looking pretty much like chickens would if they were given more humanoid proportions, with a couple of slight Mudokon-esque references as a hint to our favourite bird-descended characters. While we're here, I might as well moan about the 'Pork and beans' reference. As far as I know, pigs aren't actually a species on Oddworld, so the chances of having a 'fine meal' involving their cooked flesh seems about as likely as there being a popular US beverage available from vending machines built of wood and cloth. I hope beyond all reason that it was a throw-away line that will most definitely not make the game.

Then, of course, came the screenshots from the X-Factor video, including the god-aweful salamanders. Truely, they make the chickens seem reasonable and Oddworldian by comparison. These tribal hula-dancers, I imagine, were scribbled by six-year olds, then converted into 3D models. What are they, tubes with legs and a bulbous head? With skirts and bikinis? Oh, and long, thick eyelashes. Woo, the first females Oddworld have shown, and they pretty much identified as so by... well, things I used to give my female drawings when I was six years old.

Then I got round to downloading the X-Factor video from the Internet. I got to see the horrible Hickens and their red-neck bashing attempt at humour. I witnessed the salamanders wriggling around fires, screaming into the sky like the four-legged tubes they were. And then there was the blob. The toad-blob, doing some kind of martial art moves. What can I say, it's a blob with legs, a wide toad-like mouth and some patches and hairs on its back. I really find it hard to imagine this thing has come from the same people who produced Scrabs, Glukkons and Vykkers, and then I remember no it hasn't, the design artists working for OW4 haven't worked on any Oddworld games in the past, Raymond Swanland aside.

Now, I'm not about to go into long rambling discussions about Oddworld Inhabitants being consumed by greed, or having constant supervision by Microsoft, or anything like that. I've heard rumours and theories, though. I'm also not going to go on about other designs, such as the swing doors, or the Crop Shop, which might very well have been shipped to Oddworld directly from Earth by spaceship for all their originality shows. Neither am I going to go on about how Oddworld Inhabitants have become largely separated from the fans and their ideas, churning out insulting Dear Alfs and shitty Daily Deceptions Online. I will say that I've over reacted with this post.

You needn't bother telling me that, I can see that myself, but I can't be bothered to go back and sort it all out. However, these are how I feel about things. BUT, I'm also going to stress the point that I'm not jumping on OW4's back, blindly stabbing at it or even completely dismissing the characters - so many of you jumped on my back last time I aired these views, and wrongfully so. I'll iterate it once more: It's only the character design we've seen so far that I'm upset about. I know the designs may have changed. I'm not claiming that the characters' lives, personalities and stories are going to be rubbish, I'm not at all insinuating that I don't like the overall look of Oddworld 4.

And a final note on the subject for now: I know Alf reads the Forums, and I know he knows my views, or at least the gist of them. I want him to know that I'm not 'crazy' as he so lovingly puts it, and I'm not 'bashing' you, whatever it seems. At least, that's not my intent. See, I'm genuinely concerned about what I've been seeing, with regards to what I've rambled on about above. It's criticism spawned by love, not the need to criticise.

And Chris, sorry the tape isn't working for you. I did try to copy it, but the quality was comparable to that of a Wimpy burger when placed alongside a Ritz steak meal. Hence, you've got what I've been watching.

oddguy · #7 09-05-2003, 04:58 PM

Hopefully, we'll get to see those hickens tortured or something. Hehehe. Kinda like when a mudokon gets beaten, but this time we won't feel bad!

Actually, the first time I saw a mud getting beaten, I laughed....but you know what I mean.

Oh yes....Blob man is cool!

-oddguy

Fez · #8 09-05-2003, 04:59 PM

Amen.

T-nex · #9 09-05-2003, 05:29 PM

:

Originally posted by Max the Mug
I support Ferill's views on the character design in Oddworld, or rather of what we've seen of it, and I'm sure people know it. The salamanders/newts, the toad-blob and of course the infamous 'Hickens'. I have to say when I saw those chicken hillbillies for the first time on the Forums, I felt my insides do a double take, that's how shocked I was at the dreadfulness of their design. They look more suited to Crash Bandicoot, and there is no way I can see them existing alongside Mudokons, Sligs and Glukkons. What's worse than their un-Oddworld appearance is their clichéd, generic appearance, looking pretty much like chickens would if they were given more humanoid proportions, with a couple of slight Mudokon-esque references as a hint to our favourite bird-descended characters. While we're here, I might as well moan about the 'Pork and beans' reference. As far as I know, pigs aren't actually a species on Oddworld, so the chances of having a 'fine meal' involving their cooked flesh seems about as likely as there being a popular US beverage available from vending machines built of wood and cloth. I hope beyond all reason that it was a throw-away line that will most definitely
not make the game.

Then, of course, came the screenshots from the X-Factor video, including the god-aweful salamanders. Truely, they make the chickens seem reasonable and Oddworldian by comparison. These tribal hula-dancers, I imagine, were scribbled by six-year olds, then converted into 3D models. What are they, tubes with legs and a bulbous head? With skirts and bikinis? Oh, and long, thick eyelashes. Woo, the first females Oddworld have shown, and they pretty much identified as so by... well, things I used to give my female drawings when I was six years old.

Then I got round to downloading the X-Factor video from the Internet. I got to see the horrible Hickens and their red-neck bashing attempt at humour. I witnessed the salamanders wriggling around fires, screaming into the sky like the four-legged tubes they were. And then there was the blob. The toad-blob, doing some kind of martial art moves. What can I say, it's a blob with legs, a wide toad-like mouth and some patches and hairs on its back. I really find it hard to imagine this thing has come from the same people who produced Scrabs, Glukkons and Vykkers, and then I remember no it hasn't, the design artists working for OW4 haven't worked on any Oddworld games in the past, Raymond Swanland aside.

Now, I'm not about to go into long rambling discussions about Oddworld Inhabitants being consumed by greed, or having constant supervision by Microsoft, or anything like that. I've heard rumours and theories, though. I'm also not going to go on about other designs, such as the swing doors, or the Crop Shop, which might very well have been shipped to Oddworld directly from Earth by spaceship for all their originality shows. Neither am I going to go on about how Oddworld Inhabitants have become largely separated from the fans and their ideas, churning out insulting Dear Alfs and shitty Daily Deceptions Online. I will say that I've over reacted with this post. You needn't bother telling me that, I can see that myself, but I can't be bothered to go back and sort it all out. However, these are how I feel about things. BUT, I'm also going to stress the point that I'm not jumping on OW4's back, blindly stabbing at it or even completely dismissing the characters - so many of you jumped on my back last time I aired these views, and wrongfully so. I'll iterate it once more: It's only the character design we've seen so far that I'm upset about. I know the designs may have changed. I'm not claiming that the characters' lives, personalities and stories are going to be rubbish, I'm not at all insinuating that I don't like the overall look of Oddworld 4.

And a final note on the subject for now: I know Alf reads the Forums, and I know he knows my views, or at least the gist of them. I want him to know that I'm not 'crazy' as he so lovingly puts it, and I'm not 'bashing' you, whatever it seems. At least, that's not my intent. See, I'm genuinely concerned about what I've been seeing, with regards to what I've rambled on about above. It's criticism spawned by love, not the need to criticise.

And Chris, sorry the tape isn't working for you. I did try to copy it, but the quality was comparable to that of a Wimpy burger when placed alongside a Ritz steak meal. Hence, you've got what I've been watching.

That's the most beautyful speech ever... *sniff*
I think you should post it to Alf, he may not respond back, but at least he''ll know.

Did Farzad not used to work at oddworld?? I heard that don't anymore, i don't know if do or did. You probarbly know better. But i think that he had all the great ideas, and now Owi can't think up some good characters without him.

Okay, here's a very naive speech from very, naive me:
Maybe OWI wants to confuse us, cheat behind our backs.
You know how many false expections they gave us with MO, and that was the biggest mistake. So I, the very naive fan, think that they are giving us false information. Maybe the REAL game is actullay another, we havent heard anything of, the GOOD game. A game that has the most oddworldish creatures ever, with the best storyline ever. I really hope so, but i know that it won't happen.

What were OWI thinking of??? I actually started to hate them, for punishing us like this.

WE DON'T DESERVE IT!!

Jacob · #10 09-05-2003, 06:45 PM

:

Just seeing those "Salamanders" made me almost cry(I mean it).

Just reading that made me think "God, what a loser. Go die. Go die now."

And Max its good to see atleast some Fag qualities are with every Queer (or Bi, or whatever you are) even if they only surface when talking about a game...

Oddsville · #11 09-05-2003, 06:55 PM

In my opinon OWI is doing a fair job. Of course there was MO and even Lorne says that was a dissapointment but my point is that we've only seen that so far. We haven't even had another game to compare to MO and see if OWI is indeed failing to meet our expectations. As far as some of the creatures, well the Salamander things did look awefull but keep in mind how many transitions every charater goes through before it show's up in the final product.

Now on to the Hickens. I don't think they look all that bad, they basicly give me the feeling that I feel when I see Meep (which I don't think are very Oddworldish at all but no one seem's to complain.) Im sure they've had some alterations during the time from when the X-Factor footage was first shot. And as for the Blob things..well I actually truely like these. I see extreem potental in these and I've always imagined them as river dwellers that kinda grow plantlife on their backs for camoflauge. Remember, this game will most definately be a departure from the other three Oddworld games. It seems to have a mix of a Western and Old Riverboat type theme (which are both pretty interesting theme's to mix). Remember in the lates Inhabitan's interview there is a mention of "Tom Huck" which might indicate the type of atmosphere we'll see on any river levels.

paramiteabe · #12 09-05-2003, 09:53 PM

You people are just amazeing. The game is not even done yet and your already giveing it critisisem over some pictures of chicken and salimander influenced characters. For all we know they arent main characters. What do you want from Oddworld? Its like you people are dwelling in the past and are afraid to try new and bold things for Oddworld. We will see those things again but they are trying this new idea now. Give Steef a chance mann. If I was doing something like this and my audience was critisiseing me for stuff I haven't even finnished yet let alone released anything but a few early concepts then the hell with them I am doing that. It will be like "they don't know anything about my world so shut up!" Oddworld is Lornes vision what ever he comes up with is his own art wether you like it or not. But do we really have to critisise this game when its not even done yet? As far as I am concern there was nothing childish about those scenes. They had some bit of comic releaf but thats ok its not like comic releaf is always a childish thing. For all we know you get killed in the game and the Chickens look at you and start acting arrogant. Theres your dark humor.

The chickens are arrogant creatures the Salimanders are probabally really religious native river folk who dance a lot. The inhabitants of Oddworld is getting wierder as time goes on that is why we are seeing things that look like chickens and horses/ gorillia whome have a Clint Eastwood personality. Frog like creatures that do wierd dances and on top of that the inhabitants we already know of from previous games. If you ask me thats some pretty wierd things. Its only going to get stranger and I pridict the new things we will see in later games will look even more rediculious. All I am saying is you shouldn't really critisise this until you have the game in your possession. Until then we don't know anything.

Forbidden Paradise · #13 09-06-2003, 12:18 AM

I always thought that MO was a child's game. I mean take a look at Meeps, Fuzzles and Meetles. If I wanted childish looking characters in a game then I would go and play my old copy of Yoshi's Island for the SNES.

I don't like this new turn in OW4 of "characters that look more like animals." Chickens?! Newts!? I want different, creative and unreal designs, like scrabs and sligs from AO/AE.

***Wil*** · #14 09-06-2003, 08:04 AM

Ah, quote time.

:

The game is not even done yet and your already giveing it critisisem over some pictures of chicken and salimander influenced characters.

We've seen the pictures, we don't need to complete game to criticise them.

:

For all we know they arent main characters.

What's that got to do with it? In AO, even ring-pulls and order bombs had neat, Oddworldian designs, and how many of them were there? There were only 2 order bombs, methinks.

:

We will see those things again but they are trying this new idea now.

What old things? You mean the Scrabs, Sligs, Glukkons I mentioned? Sure, we'll get to see them again. But that's them, and these are these. I don't like these.

:

Give Steef a chance mann.

I'm sorry, did someone mention the Steef? I've been talking about three different characters.

:

But do we really have to critisise this game when its not even done yet?

Oh for fuck's sake, how out of my way do I have to go to repeat this endlessly? I haven't dissed the game, and no one here has. I myself have only criticised some of the visual design and particular character actions we've seen, while some others have registered dismay at what they feel is a rather cartoon quality for Oddworld.

:

The chickens are arrogant creatures the Salimanders are probabally really religious native river folk who dance a lot.

Yup, they're fine, great personality traits. What that has to do with what they look like is quite beyond me, but feel free to insert not-so-relevent theories willy-nilly in the future.

:

The inhabitants of Oddworld is getting wierder as time goes on that is why we are seeing things that look like chickens and horses/ gorillia whome have a Clint Eastwood personality.

So you mean blobs and tubes and cut-and-pasted animals are weirder than original, alien designs? Interesting opinion. Look, just take a peek at a Scrab. Now we all know that Scrabs are, from a design perspective, a cross between a crab and a stallion. But just look at it, and tell me what it looks like. Go on, associate an animal with it. Without knowing anything about its name or character, you couldn't. Similar story for other early inhabitants, which I'm only using as examples, not as a dwelling in the past. Sligs clearly have a squid head, but the actually slug reference only comes across in its name. Paramites are spider-like in appearance, but they're hyena personality can only be guaged by looking at their style of hunting. However, unlike such brilliant creations, the creature inspiration behind these latest creations doesn't need to appear through nomenclature or behavioural study, it's plaintatively evident simply by looking at it. In an instant you can associate salamanders or newts to our tribal friends, or toad or frog to the blob, or chickens to the Hickens. Even the Steef's design falls a bit flat here, since we have a highly lion-esque face, a clearly equarian body and a distinctly gorilla upper body. It could very well by cut-and-paste, and even listening to Lorne's and Raymond's design process, that's what it sounds like. "Take these animals, put them together, shorten the length between the legs, add horns. Ta da!" The only thing I've seen that neither draws off Earth wildlife to huge degrees or existing Oddworldian creatures in the hunter/poacher, which I hope everyone knows is my favourite character from Oddworld 4, of what we've seen so far, design-wise.

:

All I am saying is you shouldn't really critisise this until you have the game in your possession.

Once the game is out, that's it, the material is released. True, maybe us fans will have a stronger case for arguing these points, but the 'damage' is already done. It's not the end of Oddworld, obviously, it can be 'repaired'; but it cannot be made up or patched. The released game will be cannonical, OWI can't be expected to go back, clear it all up and re-release it. That's why we need to help early on, that's why it's not entirely healthy to keep absolutely everyone under wraps, that's what made AE such a great improvement over AO from a gameplay perspective: if it wasn't for the fans comments and feedback, there would still have been bats, bees, greater difficulty level, less personality for the Mudokons and perhaps not even the fabulous QuikSave feature.

:

I don't think they look all that bad, they basicly give me the feeling that I feel when I see Meep (which I don't think are very Oddworldish at all but no one seem's to complain.)

People did complain when Fuzzles were first seen, but not to this degree. See, the first images of Fuzzles looked more like sea urchins with twisted rabbit ears. They were very cool, I'd be quite happy if they were in MO instead of the brown furry blobs we ended up with. Meeps are quite a disappointment, design-wise, but I guess nobody complains because they're falling asleep while herding them, lol. No, I don't know why people don't moan about them. Perhaps because they almost slipped past unnoticed, barely any feature in the game, no significance to the story, no personality. Maybe, if these disputed creatures in OW4 don't get much screen-time, fans will complain less. However, by starving us of information, then handing out the X-Factor video, they've magnified these creatures by leaving us to pounce on the new information. Perhaps Oddworld 5 will be a beautiful balancing point between the loyal informative state that MO's run-up presented, and the secrecy and spoiler-retention of OW4.

:

I mean take a look at Meeps, Fuzzles and Meetles.

Meetles? Meetles are great creatures, not the most original, but still remarkable and Oddworldian. If you mean about the grubs and them looking childish, then I sort of agree, but also don't. They look cute, but that's a far cry from being childish. The original Fuzzle designs were cute, much more adorable than the final versions, but they weren't childish, they were quite dark and twisted.

:

And Max its good to see atleast some Fag qualities are with every Queer (or Bi, or whatever you are) even if they only surface when talking about a game...

Selective mutism forces one to find alternative outlets for passion.

Jacob · #15 09-06-2003, 10:44 AM

I liked the earlier versions of the Fuzzles...less Fuzzly than the ones we ended up with.

Forbidden Paradise · #16 09-06-2003, 11:28 AM

:

Originally posted by Max the Mug
Meetles? Meetles are great creatures, not the most original, but still remarkable and Oddworldian. If you mean about the grubs and them looking childish, then I sort of agree, but also don't. They look cute, but that's a far cry from being childish. The original Fuzzle designs were cute, much more adorable than the final versions, but they weren't childish, they were quite dark and twisted.

No. Dark and twisted is a slig that looks like a mutated crustacean with mechanical legs and an automatic weapon that does not run out of ammo. That's dark and twisted. Childish to me is a meetle that looks like a pink balloon with too much mascara on and a happy smile.

But credit where credits due, and I will not take that away from OI

***Xavier*** · #17 09-06-2003, 01:17 PM

Meetle CloseUp

Forbidden Paradise · #18 09-06-2003, 01:28 PM

Actually, according to the Avatars page in this forum

that's a picture of a "Meetle Equipped."

The Meetle I was referring to is the avatar

which is also on the avatar page, entitled "Meetle, Fuzzles."

***Wil*** · #19 09-06-2003, 01:50 PM

That's a Meetle grub, the larval form of a Meetle. The one Xavier posted is a fully-grown herbivorous Meetle, equipped with native-fitted armour.

***Xavier*** · #20 09-06-2003, 01:52 PM

my bad, this should be more representative...

Fully-Grown Meetle

Fez · #21 09-06-2003, 06:15 PM

do meetles and mugs have seperate types of lava?

paramiteabe · #22 09-06-2003, 06:45 PM

Of course your right we do need to comment but I think OWI realised what went wrong which will make Steef a rather intriegueing game like AE. I mean you don't think OWI isn't listening to us? I bet every penny they are and Lanning hated Munch. Its in the minds of the developers that they need to make a better game than Munch because Munch dident work.

Disgruntled Intern · #23 09-07-2003, 03:57 PM

Max, I just wanted to say kudos.

Rarely do I visit GD, let alone post in it, but kudos, Mr.Max!

You have more or less summed up everything I think about the next Oddworld game, only you have saved me from making a post that would have been ignored.

Paramiteabe, jesus, grow up already. Stop putting so much stock in an obviously failing gaming company.

***Xavier*** · #24 09-07-2003, 04:24 PM

:

Originally posted by ferill
do meetles and mugs have seperate types of lava?

they have the same larvaes and they evolve differently

Grub envolve into a Meetle or A mug, it depens how you feed it

Scrubs · #25 09-07-2003, 04:29 PM

Whooaa Digruntled Intern, i wouldn't call Oddworld Ihabitants a failing company all three games have been a success, even though Munch wasn't what the fans and even lorne wanted and expected, it still did generally well.

Save your judgements until after steef has been released, then it hardly sells and sucks you can say they are a failing game company. I do think the slalmanders design sucks though.

And no news is good news as they say at oddworld

***Xavier*** · #26 09-07-2003, 04:42 PM

:

Originally posted by Scrubs
And no news is good news as they say at oddworld

I just don't like that sentence

***Wil*** · #27 09-07-2003, 05:03 PM

Me neither. If I didn't have on a deadpan expression and an acheing back at the time, I would have winced. I also would tend to disagree with the idea of OWI being a failing company, commercially at least. However, DI's statement seemed to me to be referring more to their own pre-set ideals, and failing to stick to them. In which case, I'll have to agree. Whatever, thanks for the praise. I know I didn't avoid doing my geography coursework for nothing.

Fez · #28 09-08-2003, 01:19 PM

:

Originally posted by Xavier
they have the same larvaes and they evolve differently

Grub envolve into a Meetle or A mug, it depens how you feed it

so in the next game might we be seeing a "breeding centre" thats seperate from the game? like that Chao thing in sonic adventure 2 battle.

I can see it now, you find grubs while playing the game,then they go to the breeding farm, where you play a seperate game to breed them into mugs or meetles.

***Xavier*** · #29 09-08-2003, 04:09 PM

I doubt we will see such a thing...

Natives "transform" grubs into friendly Meeltes by feeding them with vegetables and Industrials "transform" them into fourious Mugs by feeding them with meat...

***Wil*** · #30 09-08-2003, 05:09 PM

I did read references to taking creatures to some kind of safer place and then developing them into something you can use to your advantage, sometime in the early run-up to MO. I've never heard of Chao, but I imagine the actualy 'mini-game' aspect of this critter-raising would just use the normal gameplay in a different, danger-free environment, rather than something like Petz. No idea whether this'll be implemented in later games, but we can hope for such ambitious projects.