Suddenly IMMENSLY proud to be Bisexual...

Jacob · #1 07-10-2002, 09:01 PM

I have just watched this programme called 'Living with the Enemy' and this week it was about two Homophobes living with two Homosexuals. It was quite amusing and very enlightening, one of the main things that made me smile was the fact that the two gay guys went to a straight, strip joint and watched the strippers do their stuff. Anyway, the four guys were sat drinking and the two straights were enjoying the 'Scenery' and the two gay guys started talking to the stripper, who stated that she found Homophobia very un-attractive and pathetic. Much to the surprise to the straight guys who were expecting them to dislike gays.

However, one of the shocking things that one of the straights said was that if you could tell a baby was gay before it was born...he would make sure his wife had a termination.

Anyways, by the end of it i realised that a Gay/Bi guy is worth a million Homophobic wankers and i would rather be as i am now than be them.

The main reason why i have not felt proud in the past is mainly due to my family. They have made me feel down and question my friends and beliefs. Although i usually shrug the comments off at the time, usually when i get depressed i think about them and become increasingly suicidal. Some of their comments are:

"Are you sure they are your friends?"

"Are you the clown of the group?"

These have been the two main comments since i came out, they wouldn't dare go near any discussion that could result in me reminding them of my sexuality. They basically think that i make them laff and that my friends are laffing at me, which is true. As most of the things i state are basically meant to be laffed at. But my Nan/Mum think that when they laff they slag me off also. I have only just realised (Oh the shame) that they are so f*cking wrong its unbelievable. And i personally cant wait until i am 18 cos i am getting the Hell out of there.

Just mindless babble really...apologies, i just had to tell someone and since its late i dont want to wake my friends up and/or wait til tomoro to tell them.

ODDBODD · #2 07-11-2002, 09:16 AM

*crickets*

Nah jokes.

Anyways im sorry but i find what you are sayinf totally wrong.. Your familyand your future family will probably be the best thing that could ever happen in your life. They aren't trying to push you off the edge (even thought it seems so) YOU aren't perfect and THEY aren't perfect either and if i am lucky to still have your attention then im doing a good job.
Talk to your family and when you are talking listen to what they have to say. If you interrupt or if you yell at them you are no better than what you are accusing. Talk to them and while you are talking and you start to cry whatever you do do not turn away. Go over to them and hug them, this may sound terribly corny but they will feel your pain if you do that. They are your family... But dont let it end their you just keep on talking to them and sooner or later both parties will understand eachother and come more closer that you can ever come.

I have tried this with my father after the LAST time that i tried to commit suicide. We talked from 4pm to 6pm the next day.

Gluk Schmuck · #3 07-11-2002, 09:48 AM

His family are all bigots. Enough said.

Sydney · #4 07-11-2002, 10:16 AM

It's nice to think that parents are there to love you unconditionally, but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. I'm glad my family is fairly liberal-minded when it comes to things like homosexuality, race, etc.

Most people are uneducated when it comes to homosexuality and don't like it. It's caused by the developing brain being exposed to abnormal levels of hormones both in foetal development and during the first few months outside of the womb. I think people who are afraid or disgusted by homosexuals have insecurities within them, like they have a slight attraction to males but don't want to admit it to themselves.

Surfacing · #5 07-11-2002, 11:05 AM

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Originally posted by Sydney
I think people who are afraid or disgusted by homosexuals have insecurities within them, like they have a slight attraction to males but don't want to admit it to themselves.

Yeah whatever, like you'd know considering you have not been through it. Maybe it could just be a phase, where my hormones are constantly changing, and I just can't tell left from right, but it defiantly does not mean i have a slight attraction to the same sex, i really have no idea were you pulled that one from.

Jacob if worse comes to worse and your parents can't understand well to bad for them, in the end the decision is up to you.

Sydney · #6 07-11-2002, 11:31 AM

Surfacing, you don't need to be rude to me. I didn't know this was such a touchy topic with you.

There was a study done a couple of years ago in which several straight men participated. They seperated the straight men into two groups; one group considered themselves homophobic and the other group had no problem with homosexuality. Each person had devices attatched to their genitalia to measure differences in blood pressure and were exposed to homosexual stimuli.

In about 85% of the homophobic men, an increase of blood was detected in their genitalia, ie, they were slightly aroused by what they saw. There were no reactions in the men who had no problem with homosexuality. Therefore, I conclude that many homophobic men feel the way they do because of shameful homosexual desires.

Surfacing · #7 07-11-2002, 11:37 AM

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Originally posted by Sydney
Surfacing, you don't need to be rude to me. I didn't know this was such a touchy topic with you.

There was a study done a couple of years ago in which several straight men participated. They seperated the straight men into two groups; one group considered themselves homophobic and the other group had no problem with homosexuality. Each person had devices attatched to their genitalia to measure differences in blood pressure and were exposed to homosexual stimuli.

In about 85% of the homophobic men, an increase of blood was detected in their genitalia, ie, they were slightly aroused by what they saw. There were no reactions in the men who had no problem with homosexuality. Therefore, I conclude that many homophobic men feel the way they do because of shameful homosexual desires.

Were was this study conducted? Who analyzed the study? How old were the men that participated in the in study? Can you provide any proof of this study at all?

Sorry if you thought I was being rude you just seemed a little prejudice I now know why.

Sydney · #8 07-11-2002, 11:45 AM

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Originally posted by Surfacing
Were was this study conducted? Who analyzed the study? How old were the men that participated in the in study? Can you provide any proof of this study at all?

Sorry if you thought I was being rude you just seemed a little prejudice I now know why.

I appeared prejudiced? It was not my intentions in the least, please accept my apologies. You now know why? What do you mean by that?

Anyway, to answer your questions, the study took place in America by the American Psychological Association (APA). Here's the news story that was reported on CNN, I believe:

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WASHINGTON -- Psychoanalytic theory holds that homophobia -- the fear, anxiety, anger, discomfort and aversion that some ostensibly heterosexual people hold for gay individuals -- is the result of repressed homosexual urges that the person is either unaware of or denies. A study appearing in the August 1996 issue of the Journal of Abnormal Psychology, published by the American Psychological Association (APA), provides new empirical evidence that is consistent with that theory.

Researchers at the University of Georgia conducted an experiment involving 35 homophobic men and 29 nonhomophobic men as measured by the Index of Homophobia scale. All the participants selected for the study described themselves as exclusively heterosexual both in terms of sexual arousal and experience.

Each participant was exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual and lesbian videotapes (but not necessarily in that order). Their degree of sexual arousal was measured by penile plethysmography, which precisely measures and records male tumescence.

Men in both groups were aroused by about the same degree by the video depicting heterosexual sexual behavior and by the video showing two women engaged in sexual behavior. The only significant difference in degree of arousal between the two groups occurred when they viewed the video depicting male homosexual sex: 'The homophobic men showed a significant increase in penile circumference to the male homosexual video, but the control men did not.'
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Surfacing · #9 07-11-2002, 12:01 PM

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Originally posted by Sydney
I appeared prejudiced? It was not my intentions in the least, please accept my apologies. You now know why? What do you mean by that?

Anyway, to answer you questions, the study took place in America by the American Psychological Association (APA). Here's the news story that was reported on CNN, I believe:

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WASHINGTON -- Psychoanalytic theory holds that homophobia -- the fear, anxiety, anger, discomfort and aversion that some ostensibly heterosexual people hold for gay individuals -- is the result of repressed homosexual urges that the person is either unaware of or denies. A study appearing in the August 1996 issue of the Journal of Abnormal Psychology, published by the American Psychological Association (APA), provides new empirical evidence that is consistent with that theory.

Researchers at the University of Georgia conducted an experiment involving 35 homophobic men and 29 nonhomophobic men as measured by the Index of Homophobia scale. All the participants selected for the study described themselves as exclusively heterosexual both in terms of sexual arousal and experience.

Each participant was exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual and lesbian videotapes (but not necessarily in that order). Their degree of sexual arousal was measured by penile plethysmography, which precisely measures and records male tumescence.

Men in both groups were aroused by about the same degree by the video depicting heterosexual sexual behavior and by the video showing two women engaged in sexual behavior. The only significant difference in degree of arousal between the two groups occurred when they viewed the video depicting male homosexual sex: 'The homophobic men showed a significant increase in penile circumference to the male homosexual video, but the control men did not.'
---------------

Hmmm... Fascinating report, I just don't understand why homophobic men would be more aroused to gay porn more than non homophobic men, then why would homophobic men say they are homophobic if they are more attracted to it, it just does not make any since such an unusual phenomenon. Sid i said "I now know why" because you had been reading this type of material. But do you actually agree with this report, I’m asking your personal opinion.

Sydney · #10 07-11-2002, 12:07 PM

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Originally posted by Surfacing
Hmmm... Fascinating report, I just don't understand why homophobic men would be more aroused to gay porn more than non homophobic men, then why would homophobic men say they are homophobic if they are more attracted to it, it just does not make any since such an unusual phenomenon. Sid i said "I now know why" because you had been reading this type of material. But do you actually agree with this report, I’m asking your personal opinion.

I'm not a psychiatrist, so I'm not going to pretend I know how the mind works. As I understand it, the homophobic may increase his outward hatred towards homosexuals in an effort to either convince others that he is completely straight, or to convince himself that he is completely straight. It probably isn't even a conscious chain of thought, but rather something that works away in the background of the homophobic's mind.

Do I agree with the study? I can't see any other explanation why homophobic men would react to the pornographic material moreso than heterosexual men.

ODDBODD · #11 07-11-2002, 12:14 PM

i must admit im not 100% supportive on homosexual activity but i must accept that it is their choice and that they have the right not to recieve any descrimination for it.

Doug · #12 07-11-2002, 01:01 PM

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Originally posted by Sydney
Most people are uneducated when it comes to homosexuality and don't like it. It's caused by the developing brain being exposed to abnormal levels of hormones both in foetal development and during the first few months outside of the womb.

This may be a theory as to the cause of homosexuality, and I'm not suggesting that it couldn't be true, but there is currently no scientific consensus as to the cause of homosexuality.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #13 07-11-2002, 01:05 PM

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Originally posted by Sydney
It's caused by the developing brain being exposed to abnormal levels of hormones both in foetal development and during the first few months outside of the womb. I think people who are afraid or disgusted by homosexuals have insecurities within them, like they have a slight attraction to males but don't want to admit it to themselves.

No that's not true, being a hetero, homo or lesbian is a choice. Plus, their is no scientific evidence to back that up. Your not born being gay that's a mistaken myth. Maybe that person may be insecure or just does'nt like the fact that a male can love a male. Some people think it's strange. Some people are just disgusted with THE ACT of homosexuality, not the person. my brother's gay, I don't like the act of it but I still love him and that's his choice I can't change that. I use to have a friend who was gay (he moved but we still chill) he was still my friend because that's his choice and his life. Like if someone did'nt like the act of me being a heterosexual, that's fine I am not going to get offended about it because that's my choice. I'm not insecure with myself. Yeah I'm rambling but I just want to make a point that I don't judge or hate people because they are gay .(I'm just telling people's point of views, don't scold at me or anything this I was not meant to offend anyone *ahem* Gluk.)

But really Gluk, you love to make fun of other people's choices in life and call them babies with no sense of humor, but when someone makes fun of your choice in life about being bisexual or joke about it, you get upset. Can you blame them? That's hypocritical.

Sydney · #14 07-11-2002, 01:30 PM

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Originally posted by Doug
This may be a theory as to the cause of homosexuality, and I'm not suggesting that it couldn't be true, but there is currently no scientific consensus as to the cause of homosexuality.

What I mentioned was along the lines of the current medical consensus. There have been widely unpublicised experiments performed on male rats in which they're given anti-androgens during crucial periods of development, when surges of testosterone are necessary for the development of normal male brains. Needless to say, those mice that were given the anti-androgens displayed homosexual behaviour. I'm confused, because something like this should be big news, but for the most part these studies have been ignored.

I first heard about this on a TV program on the ABC, I think it was called Catalyst, and I've heard a Psychiatrist named Dr T. Hance at the Royal Prince Alfred Hosptial in Sydney cite these studies. I did a quick internet search, but the results were vague.

Gluk Schmuck · #15 07-11-2002, 01:49 PM

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Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
1. No that's not true, being a hetero, homo or lesbian is a choice. Plus, their is no scientific evidence to back that up. Your not born being gay that's a mistaken myth.

2. But really Gluk, you love to make fun of other people's choices in life and call them babies with no sense of humor, but when someone makes fun of your choice in life about being bisexual or joke about it, you get upset. Can you blame them? That's hypocritical.

1. I quite recently watched a programme entitled 'The Truth About Gay Animals'. It was a very interesting show. A researcher had discovered that certain goats were homosexual and some were hetrosexual (dispelling the myth that it's not 'natural' to be homosexual). They found that a gland in the lower brain of the homosexual goats were different from those of the hetrosexual goats. This evidence suggests that the goats 'turned out' hetrosexual or homosexual based on a congenital difference in conditions.

2. I said you had no sense of humour as a joke. It wasn't meant literally. For example, Anna and Dylan fail to find Dragon Tails funny. I called them humourless. I doubt that they actually thought I perceived them as being humourless.
If you're going to complain at me for calling you names, at least have the decency to ask me if I meant it first.

I haven't seen that many bisexual jokes on the forums.
I can't think of very many occasions when people have criticised homosexuality but they certainly didn't have good reasons for doing so. As far as I can recall, I tried to argue against their reasons (their reasons usually being that 'the Bible said so' -- I still fail to see the difinitive evidence that the Bible actually condemns homosexuality) and didn't 'get upset'.

I wouldn't browse right-wing propaganda websites (it's so fun) if I got upset when people criticised homosexuality, would I?

Jacob · #16 07-11-2002, 04:55 PM

This topic wasn't really sposed to get replies, however its good that it did...

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Anyways im sorry but i find what you are sayinf totally wrong..(1) Your familyand your future family will probably be the best thing that could ever happen in your life. They aren't trying to push you off the edge (even thought it seems so)(2) YOU aren't perfect and THEY aren't perfect either and if i am lucky to still have your attention then im doing a good job.
(3)Talk to your family and when you are talking listen to what they have to say. (4)If you interrupt or if you yell at them you are no better than what you are accusing. (5)Talk to them and while you are talking and you start to cry whatever you do do not turn away. (6)Go over to them and hug them, this may sound terribly corny but they will feel your pain if you do that. (7)They are your family...(8) But dont let it end their you just keep on talking to them and sooner or later both parties will understand eachother and come more closer that you can ever come.

(1) - My family and my future family will be totally different. Our generation are more accepting of homosexuality, thus, there is a high chance of getting together with a woman who has no problem with that. Thus, we will teach our children to not be so judgemental and they will turn out open minded and normal. My future family will be important to me, my current family are arseholes.

(2) - I never said me or them were perfect.

(3) - When i came out i listened to what they had to say...it was along the lines of "Your a man, you cant be bisexual!!" , "What do you mean your bisexual!?" and "So long as your not gay(!)" i for one did not find these very encouraging comments. Of course, at the end my mum was forced to say "We still love you." however, she said this very reluctantly and after 2 and a half hours of trying to persude me that i was straight.

(4) - I have yelled at them before, but thats mainly due to the fact they believe that they are correct and they will speak over me until it ends up as a massive argument.

(5) - I will not/have not shed a tear infront of my family for 2 years. Some of my friends have seen me cry and i prefare it than my family seeing me cry.

(6) - I haven't had physical contact with my family for around 3 years. I find it strange to hug them or kiss them and i would rather not do so.

(7) - Unfortunatly.

(8) - Highly unlikely for that to happen...believe me. I always tell them im the black sheep of the family and that im not like them. The annoying thing is, is that they reply with "Your a teenager, all teenagers think the same. You'll be just like us when you grow up." not only is this immensly patronising but makes out that i dont have a mind of my own and that im a child. Not very respectful.

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I think people who are afraid or disgusted by homosexuals have insecurities within them, like they have a slight attraction to males but don't want to admit it to themselves.

Thats true.

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Yeah whatever, like you'd know considering you have not been through it.

He may not have but i have. I used to be homophobic and a tad attracted to the same sex at a very early age. I used to consider it normal and say that i was more attracted to the female gender than the males, i even went to the extent of going into gay chatrooms and abusing them...how shaming. Homophobes are generally not comfortable with their sexuality most of the time, maybe its a fear of being tempted to try it out...who knows?

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Your not born being gay that's a mistaken myth.

My enviroment was anti-homosexual and so you cant exactly say i am Bisexual because of my enviroment. Also, i believe homosexuality is something your born with, i believe it may be something to do with the brain or due to the fact that you have more female genes inside of you.

The second is that Bisexuals and Homosexuals are born with more female genes and so they are how the are. Pinky, people are born Gay, Bi etc. Like i said, my enviroment wasn't the cause of my sexuality and so you cant say i wasn't born Bi.

Sydney · #17 07-12-2002, 03:46 AM

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Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
No that's not true, being a hetero, homo or lesbian is a choice.

Was there a moment in your life, when you suddenly decided that you'd be a heterosexual? No. Sexuality is something that slowly emerges during puberty. It's completely ridiculous that you're suggesting people choose who they're sexually attracted to. Plus, sexuality is biological in nature, so it's logical to assume that homosexuality has roots in biology.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #18 07-12-2002, 10:05 AM

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Originally posted by Sydney
Was there a moment in your life, when you suddenly decided that you'd be a heterosexual? No. Sexuality is something that slowly emerges during puberty. It's completely ridiculous that you're suggesting people choose who they're sexually attracted to. Plus, sexuality is biological in nature, so it's logical to assume that homosexuality has roots in biology.

Um yeah, my brother! It does not reach during puberty because I would of been gay. That's the most ridiculous thing I have every heard better yet, the dumbest to say that your born gay or it's in nature. It sometimes depends on who you hang around with also. If you hang around with people who are smoking, then you are capable of smoking also. I don't believe It's a born type of thang. I just am not attacted to females and I choose not to. You can choose who want to date, want to believe in, etc because it's not something which is permanent that you cannot change (like being a female). It's a personal choice. I'm not against people who are gay because it's their choice. I mean, your not born rascist are you? Who you wanted to hate? Oh yeah let's go to the scientist. They probably have some excuse saying that it's something in the brain that's making you rascist. Scientist always have some type of explaination for things which are really choices. You can't choose your race, eye color, sex etc but you can choose your sexuality, no one's making you gay or heterosexual, So you really don't know.

Yeah, you assume homosexuality is in nature but do you have any proof?

Gluk Schmuck · #19 07-12-2002, 10:58 AM

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Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
Yeah, you assume homosexuality is in nature but do you have any proof?

Yes. Please read my last post in which I covered this issue. Also, see Sydney's post about homophobes, which shows that some homophobes are sexually aroused by homosexual sex but don't want to be aroused by it.

If the evidence that I and Sydney have provided is to be trusted (which I think it is) then there should be little doubt that sexuality is determined by congenital factors.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #20 07-12-2002, 11:11 AM

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Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck

Yes. Please read my last post in which I covered this issue. Also, see Sydney's post about homophobes, which shows that some homophobes are sexually aroused by homosexual sex but don't want to be aroused by it.

If the evidence that I and Sydney have provided is to be trusted (which I think it is) then there should be little doubt that sexuality is determined by congenital factors.

*sigh* whatever you say dude.

Sydney · #21 07-12-2002, 12:35 PM

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Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
*sigh* whatever you say dude.

What a convincing rebuttle! I assume that your unwillingness to budge is a result of your cemented religious beliefs, even when presented with logical reasoning.

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Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
Um yeah, my brother! It does not reach during puberty because I would of been gay. That's the most ridiculous thing I have every heard better yet, the dumbest to say that your born gay or it's in nature.

It seems you didn't read what I said. I said that sexuality reveals itself during puberty, not that puberty is the cause of homosexualy. Why is it dumb to argue that homosexuality is innate? As I said, sexuality is a biological mechanism that encourages sexual reproduction. I find it absurd that anyone could suggest that homosexuality is a cultural thing. As Tom pointed out, the brains in homosexual goats were found to have female characteristics. Did you know that in the very first stages of pregnancy, all foetuses are female? Exposure to testosterone is necesary for the development of male characteristics, including the brain. It's believed that homosexuality is caused by a lack of testosterone exposure in the pivotal stages of brain development, essentially leaving the male organism with a female brain. Why are you so unwilling to even give a passing glance at the facts?

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Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
It sometimes depends on who you hang around with also. If you hang around with people who are smoking, then you are capable of smoking also. I don't believe It's a born type of thang. I just am not attacted to females and I choose not to. You can choose who want to date, want to believe in, etc because it's not something which is permanent that you cannot change (like being a female). It's a personal choice. I'm not against people who are gay because it's their choice. I mean, your not born rascist are you? Who you wanted to hate? Oh yeah let's go to the scientist. They probably have some excuse saying that it's something in the brain that's making you rascist. Scientist always have some type of explaination for things which are really choices. You can't choose your race, eye color, sex etc but you can choose your sexuality, no one's making you gay or heterosexual, So you really don't know.

Homosexuality can't be cultural, for the reasons Tom and I have already explained. You do not choose to date females because you are not attracted to them. As I said, you don't choose which sex you're attracted to. Why would a man who is sexually attracted to females choose to be a homosexual, when he has no attraction to other males? I can use your catchphrase in this scenario: "it doesn't make any sense." You seem to think that gay men are still attracted to females, but choose not to be involved with them - that isn't true. It is not their choice to be attracted to those of their own sex, just as it is not your choice to be attracted to those of the opposite sex.

Steve · #22 07-12-2002, 01:16 PM

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Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
I mean, your not born rascist are you? Who you wanted to hate? Oh yeah let's go to the scientist. They probably have some excuse saying that it's something in the brain that's making you rascist.

Actually, you can be born more volatile towards people unlike those around you, it was a defense mechinism during the stone age.

Jacob · #23 07-12-2002, 02:02 PM

Pinky, why would your bro decide to be gay if he knows his family are against it? Infact, why dont you ask you bro about this? Ask him whether been gay is a choice, im sure he'll prove us correct.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #24 07-12-2002, 02:43 PM

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What a convincing rebuttle! I assume that your unwillingness to budge is a result of your cemented religious beliefs, even when presented with logical reasoning.

Actually, I just don't want to talk about it anymore since, you guys have different views on how homosexuality resulted, why keep explaining what you meant and turning this topic into a 1,900 post?

Okay later

and yes Jacob, I will ask my brother.

Gluk Schmuck · #25 07-12-2002, 03:45 PM

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Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
Actually, I just don't want to talk about it anymore since, you guys have different views on how homosexuality resulted, why keep explaining what you meant and turning this topic into a 1,900 post?

Nice way to avoid all the evidence in this topic. You Fundies just keep innovating in the field of closing your eyes.

Statikk HDM · #26 07-12-2002, 06:05 PM

I don't understand the title of this topic. You give all this pseudo "proof" saying that being queer isn't a choice, but biological fact and you are proud of that. Why? Should you be proud to have a nose or brown eyes of blond hair? Its like ethnic pride. Proud to be a puerto rican. Well, good for you mister peurto rican, but its not like you had a choice.
I also agree with Doug on this, their is no fact about why gays are gays and why straights are straight. You may say general concensus is going with the nature side, but science is not always right, and it is often wrong. Remember, there was a time when people didn't believe in atoms or acknowledge the exsistence of germs.
Also, whats a fundie? It reminds me of something you would call underwear for two people or edible panties.

Gluk Schmuck · #27 07-12-2002, 06:18 PM

'Fundy' is colloquial for fundamentalist.

Danny · #28 07-12-2002, 09:36 PM

I wonder if people are born Homophobic...

Gluk Schmuck · #29 07-12-2002, 09:39 PM

It's possible that there are congenital influences which make a person more likely to be bigotted but the biggest factor is probably parental influence.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #30 07-12-2002, 09:43 PM

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Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck

Nice way to avoid all the evidence in this topic. You Fundies just keep innovating in the field of closing your eyes.

Wow, nice combat, I bet you stayed up all night thinking about that one! You 4-9-3-11's just keep innovating the field of gullable statistics. LOL