Actualy who's country is this?

Havoc · #1 09-12-2006, 11:19 PM

I think I have a nice topic of debate here. Over here in The Netherlands, somehow the subject of introducing the Muslim law Sharia if the public wishes too do so. Because, after all, we are a democracy. While this is probably never going to happen, just that something like this is even proposed or thought about is enough to severely piss me off. The argument brought on was the following:
When more then 2/3 of the Dutch population want the Sharia to be implemented in Dutch law, there shouldn't be any problem in doing so.

First off, the moment that 2/3 of my country's population excists of forgeiners, I'm going to move! Not because I hate foreigners by definition, but because of the bullshit they bring along with them. Pretty much all of our foreign citizens are muslim, and with The Netherlands being a christian founded country, religion starts to clash all over the place, and now they are concidering a scenario where the Sharia is implemented in our law? What kind of bullshit is this?
It is in my opinion that if people migrate to a new country, they better damn well try their best to fit in! They need to adjust to our standards, not the other way around! I'm all for freedom of religion (as long as its not jammed up my nose, obviously) but when a country is going to revise it's laws to meet demands of people who should be lucky to be allowed to live here in the first place, something is very much wrong.

So, topic of debate: Should a country change laws to satisfy demand from foreigners, or should a country always keep it's founding morals and laws and demand that foreign citizens adapt to these morals and laws? Discuss!

used:) · #2 09-13-2006, 03:09 AM

I thought about half of the people in your country were atheist or sumat.

As for the immigration thing, the people coming to your country should have to adapt themselves to where they're going to be living. Not the other way around. It's not out of xenophobia that they should learn to speak dutch, get accustomed to the new country, etc. It's the fact that life will be much easier for both peoples if the Muslims naturilze themselves.

Bullet Magnet · #3 09-13-2006, 03:29 AM

Yeah. Immigrants have come to the country, and wherever that country is, they should adapt to fit in with it. They should support that country's teams at least as much as their homeland's, and fight for it should the neccessity arise. But it seems to be the other way around. I know that every country has people guilty of this (I want to die every time I see an Englishman who seems to think speaking louder and slower will get them by) but honestly, why move somewhere else if you're only going to bring home with you? If you don't like it, then why have you come here, of all places?

dripik · #4 09-13-2006, 03:56 AM

So, if I'm getting this right, the foreign people want to bring their own laws into the Netherlands? That doesn't sound very logical. Like BM said, if they move out from their own country, bringing their laws there will cause the same situation they moved away from. That is, if they moved away because they had problems with their laws and alike.

Fitting in and following the respective country's ways is the least I would do if I migrated to another country. For example, I can't encourage the people there to speak Hungarian, just because I can't understand their language.

SeaRex · #5 09-13-2006, 04:49 AM

This is very similar to the US/Mexican immigration problem. Well, kinda. Anyway.

It has always been my opinion that any group, regardless of size or social standing, immigrating into a country must adapt to the country's culture, within reason. Of course, native culture, religion, and language will come with them, but these things should be adapted to the new culture, instead of transplanted on the surface of the native society, as if they were drops of oil in a glass of water.

Good example being serious discussion of Mexican Spanish being taught in American schools. We shouldn't have to learn Spanish; the migrant families should have to learn English. I honestly don't care if it's a hard language to learn. You moved to this country for a better life; the least you could do in return is speak the native language.

I wouldn't move to a French-speaking part of Canada in order to better myself, and then expect everyone to speak English with me. No. I might not get the hang of the language for weeks or months, but I would at least make a genuine effort to learn.

However, I don't know what this new law Havoc is talking about entails, and I don't have time to look it up right now, so I can't say whether or not I agree with it.

Havoc · #6 09-13-2006, 05:07 AM

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So, if I'm getting this right, the foreign people want to bring their own laws into the Netherlands? That doesn't sound very logical.

No, it's even worse. Our own goverment came up with the idea. But they wouldn't have if someone wouldn't have been complaining about it, so it kinda goes two ways. I don't exactly know what the Sharia entails either, but just the idea that someone is thinking about intergrating it with our own stuff is beyond my comprehention.

Searex: Totaly agree there. Can you believe there was a motion for a bill not to long ago that would make learning Turkish in high school standard issue? Just because there are a lot of Turks around here... I mean, go figure.
Foreign nationalities in a country having their own schools is as far as I am willing to go, such as Muslim schools and such. But do NOT start revising our own school system because they can't addapt...

***Nate*** · #7 09-13-2006, 05:09 AM

Sharia = traditional Muslim law.

Surely by the time that 2/3 of the population are Muslim, it will be several generations down the track and, as such, they will actually be Dutch, not foreigners. And if a majority of the country want it, then democracy states that you're the odd one out and you should either accept it or leave. If you find that frightening, the only option you have right now is to curb democracy.

Good luck, I'm sure the US will be right behind you.

Daxter King · #8 09-13-2006, 05:14 AM

I agree with SeaRex about Mexicans having to learn ENglish, instead of us having to learn Spanish.You know, they say in about 2-4 years, if the immigrants form below the border keep coming, the Dallas area(where I live) will have whites as a minority and the MExicans as a majority.Its disgusting, adapt to the country's culture or get the hell out.......

Havoc · #9 09-13-2006, 08:01 AM

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Sharia = traditional Muslim law.

Surely by the time that 2/3 of the population are Muslim, it will be several generations down the track and, as such, they will actually be Dutch, not foreigners. And if a majority of the country want it, then democracy states that you're the odd one out and you should either accept it or leave. If you find that frightening, the only option you have right now is to curb democracy.

Good luck, I'm sure the US will be right behind you.

Even then, they wouldn't be native Dutch, which is the entire point. If entire Mexico would suddenly migrate to the state of New York, would that automaticaly give them the right to do what they want because they are in the majority (assuming they are and assuming for the sake of argument that New York would handle things as a democracy)? On paper maybe, but would you be comfortable with it?
I know very well that it probably won't even happen in my lifetime if it happens at all. It's the fact that someone from OUR OWN GOVERMENT even brings it up thats getting me a tad pissy.

Mutual Friend · #10 09-13-2006, 08:58 AM

Society adapts through the people within it. Society decides who's in the society.

It isn't a them versus us thing, it's just logical, natural social progression. What's the point about being precious about heritage or traditions or anything? If you let these people in (and it isn't purely one-sided charity, immigrants can add massively to the growth of an economy) society WILL and SHOULD adapt around them.

OANST · #11 09-13-2006, 09:10 AM

Well, the Dutch certainly are known for having a pussy government that caters to whatever stronger force is around. They claim to remain neutral but that's because they know that noone will attack them as long as they are laundering the worlds money. Like the freakin' Nazi's.

p.s. I mean that they were laundering the nazi's money. Not that they were acting like Nazi's.

p.p.s. Mutual Friend speaks truth. Fuck patriotism and the feeling that because you have lived on this particular piece of dirt longer than someone else that you deserve some kind of fealty.

Havoc · #12 09-13-2006, 10:58 AM

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Well, the Dutch certainly are known for having a pussy government that caters to whatever stronger force is around.

True dat...

It isn't realy about patriotism though. But yes, I have lived here all my live and if some Turkish guy who just moved here a year ago starts to complain to the goverment about how he wants his ideals intergrated with Dutch law, god forbid we tell him to f*ck off!
Because this idea wouldn't exist if someone hadn't complained about it. And like OANST said, us having the pussy goverment that we have, we'll do just about everything because OMG they might bomb us...
It's whiny from the forgeingers side and it's pussy behavior from the other side. Why this even became a media issue is beyond me and I wonder why no-one smacked the guy around when he opened up with the idea. But it's on the table now, and here we are discussing it.

Mutual Friend · #13 09-13-2006, 11:05 AM

I have no idea what you have just said means... it doesn't mean anything, does it?

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It's whiny from the forgeingers side and it's pussy behavior from the other side.

You betray yourself with your word choice, dontcha?

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Why this even became a media issue is beyond me and I wonder why no-one smacked the guy around when he opened up with the idea...

Why you would think it shouldn't or wouldn't become a media issue is beyond me. And I think that guy wasn't twatted because that'd be a stupid thing to do, m'kay?

OANST · #14 09-13-2006, 11:09 AM

I don't want you to think that I'm not sympathetic to your plight. I certainly don't wish to live under Muslim law. Shit, I don't like living under Christian law.

Havoc · #15 09-13-2006, 01:35 PM

Well, it appears I'm not the only one ticked off

. In a public poll held today, a fast 70% of the questioned persons disagreed with the idea, and another 38% thinks he should be fired for saying what he said for unloyalty to the country.

***Wil*** · #16 09-13-2006, 02:59 PM

A population shouldn’t have to have their culture displaced, by vote or anything. A hopeless ideal I know, but politics and œconomics shouldn’t have to control people’s beliefs, values and arts.

Then again, people shouldn’t be excluded from living on a certain piece of land just because their ancestors didn’t. Land is land, and culture is a property of the people who just happen to live on whatever plot of land.

***Nate*** · #17 09-13-2006, 07:28 PM

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Even then, they wouldn't be native Dutch, which is the entire point.

What makes someone native Dutch? Does that mean that I'm not really an Australian, because my grandparents came from Europe? If I came to the Netherlands, would my grandkids be counted as Dutch? Or would it help that they are white non-muslims?

:

If entire Mexico would suddenly migrate to the state of New York, would that automaticaly give them the right to do what they want because they are in the majority (assuming they are and assuming for the sake of argument that New York would handle things as a democracy)?

Yes, yes it does. That's what democracy is about. If you don't like it, become a fascist.

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On paper maybe, but would you be comfortable with it?.

Ah, that's an important point. No, I wouldn't. But it wouldn't matter what I think because I would have to respect the majority or leave. And don't believe for a second that I'm just being flippant. After the last federal election in Australia, the only thing stopping me leaving was that I still had three more years of university until I graduated; I was that disgusted at what the majority had voted for.

metroixer · #18 09-14-2006, 11:36 AM

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Good example being serious discussion of Mexican Spanish being taught in American schools. We shouldn't have to learn Spanish; the migrant families should have to learn English. I honestly don't care if it's a hard language to learn. You moved to this country for a better life; the least you could do in return is speak the native language.

Thank you. THANK YOU. (Sorry I just hate spanish class >_>. It's a pain.)

ANYWAY back on topic I think the muslims should adapt to the culture. Not shoving their own culture up you're countries @$$. Maybe i'm misunderstanding this but thats how I see it....And well thats all I got to say. I thought I had more to say but meh >_<.

Statikk HDM · #19 09-14-2006, 12:23 PM

Ah, who needs seperation of religion and government anyhow?
Hudood and cliterectomies for everybody!
Seriously though, **** these "religious laws" that are total abominations.
Seperate religion from everything, and then nuke it. Its the only way to be safe.

Mojo · #20 09-15-2006, 04:34 AM

Bah, we should still have Pim Fortuyn, not that wuss Nawijn. Or Balkenende.

At least Fortuyn triggered something when he stood up.

Havoc · #21 09-15-2006, 08:05 AM

Yea, a gun

. And look where it got us! XD

Patrick Vykkers · #22 09-24-2006, 10:07 PM

Yeah, Pim Fortuyn was great, and a man not afraid to speak the truth even if it got him called "racist" or "Islamophobic". Too bad he got killed by a nutcase. As for my opinions, I concur with Alcar. If you come into a country for permanent residence, you accept its laws, its traditions, and its people. The tail should not wag the dog.
EDIT: I don't think Turk equals Muslim. There are a fair amount of Christian and Sikh Turks. Although I do believe in democracy, warts and all. I think that if the majority of the country is Muslim, and wants Sharia law, then you unfortunately have to accept it as the countries democratic choice. However, if they act militarily aggressive, then you have a right to defend your country from aggression As the late, great, Winston Churchill once said; "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried."

Bullet Magnet · #23 09-26-2006, 04:09 AM

Ironically, it is not the muslims who are trying to get the law in the Netherlands. Maybe a few, but the majority are sensible and would be against it, as they accept that religio is choice, as are the laws of the religion. It'll be the spineless atheists and quasi-Christians in government trying to cater for the minority that are the proponents.

looney-bin · #24 09-26-2006, 10:14 AM

It's descraceful, I agree. England was a Christian country, now look at it. Any Tom, Dick and Harry can come in, and preach their religion(or cult).

Mutual Friend · #25 09-26-2006, 10:41 AM

You serious?

If so, tell me the state of my country - as you see it. Because all your view seems to consist of is 'ahh, those damned foreigners!' So, please elaborate.

And why is any religion better or worse than another?

Besides, the UK is still very much a Christian country, though I forget the actual statistics. But thankfully, very thankfully, not to the degree of the institutional religion of America etc blah. No where near.

OANST · #26 09-26-2006, 02:30 PM

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It's descraceful, I agree. England was a Christian country, now look at it. Any Tom, Dick and Harry can come in, and preach their religion(or cult).

You suck big, sweaty, veiny balls.

Mutual Friend · #27 09-26-2006, 02:36 PM

Or I could have just said that. ^

Patrick Vykkers · #28 09-26-2006, 03:11 PM

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And why is any religion better or worse than another?

So you're saying Buddhism is equally respectable as Scientology? Judaism is as respectable as the Raelians? Hinduism is as respectable as Satanism? Come on, even atheists can tell plain old religion from wacky cult.

***Nate*** · #29 09-26-2006, 06:10 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breatharians

Mutual Friend · #30 09-26-2006, 06:27 PM

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So you're saying Buddhism is equally respectable as Scientology? Judaism is as respectable as the Raelians? Hinduism is as respectable as Satanism? Come on, even atheists can tell plain old religion from wacky cult.

I meant it in the sense he meant it. I don't think he was particularly worried about the great unseen influx of Scientologists.

And actually, on the most basic level, since it's all bollocks - sure, all religion is equally valid, equally good and bad. A lie is a lie is a lie.

But that's very much a side issue, I was merely tackling what seemed to be his Western bias, obviously.