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  #1  
09-27-2005, 01:43 PM
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I'm a robot, and proud of it.

I present the following as fact, because it is. I know how certain religious folk enjoy refuting facts, so please, enjoy doing so.

Actions can be induced by electrical stimulation of the brain. In an American University, it was discovered that by stimulating particular regions of the brain, you can cause all and every type of bodily motions, from frowning, blinking, to dancing or shaking hands.
When this was first tested on animals. You know, monkeys, cats, etc, the subjects found no surprise in doing the action the 3rd party had caused. This is very important, because it was if the action was performed entirely voluntarily by the animal. As if it had just decided to get up and walk around, as it was doing.
Some people claimed that the simulations did not cause Actions (Actions involve reasons and decisions, not just motion), but only movement.
So our American University people moved onto humans, as all experiments do. Not only did the humans make the actions that their brains were stimulated to without fear or surprise (like the animals), but when questioned, the humans actually produced reasons for them. They weren’t only stimulating the brain to make motions. They were stimulating the brain to make actions.
Example: One study was to make the head move from side-to-side, as if looking around. This was repeated on one person over a number of days, lot’s of times. Every time, he produced a reason, ranging from “I’m looking for my slippers,” to “I heard a noise,” “I am restless,” etc, etc.
The subject did not know the stimulation was inducing the behaviour, he thought it was merely spontaneous, with reason. He was rationalising the movement, giving it reason.

Now, are our decisions also produced in the same way, by neuronal firings? Suppose you sit around doing nothing, and then you spontaneously move your finger. Subjectively, you may feel certain that the decision to move your finger was entirely within your control. But now suppose you have electrodes attached to your head, and you’re asked to do it again. Somebody watching the brain readings will see a specific pattern of brain activity when you move your finger. The activity begins up to one and half seconds before the actual movement of the finger. So the guy watching the monitor with the wavy lines knows you are going to move your finger before you know it yourself.

Human consciousness and human personality is made up of surprisingly little, and though people have often said it’s impossible to create a ‘true’ AI, I can tell you that is bullshit. There is nothing special about so-called ‘sentience’ or being self-aware, or being able to think or emote. Nothing at all; it can all be broken down, controlled, or recreated. Humans quite literally are robots. We feel like we have free will, like we make real decisions, like we have something deeper (the mythical soul), but we’re not. It’s an illusion. Our personalities are likely to be 50% genes, 50% environmental influences.

Commentary? Discussion? All that shiz.

Last edited by Shrink; 09-27-2005 at 01:58 PM..
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  #2  
09-27-2005, 01:48 PM
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That's really, really cool. Wowzers.

Anyway, I'm not knowledgable enough about this subject to make an intellegent post, so I'll just let you know that this is indeed, very cool.
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  #3  
09-27-2005, 01:50 PM
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Uh...I have brain damage now, sorry i'm not so smart please make a MUCH shorter version.
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  #4  
09-27-2005, 01:54 PM
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No, don't.

Nice. That is sew weerd.
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  #5  
09-27-2005, 02:08 PM
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Does hypnosis have anything to do with this?
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  #6  
09-27-2005, 02:32 PM
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That's incredibly cool... and kind of terrifying. I've never been one to believe in the superiority of humans to other animals (other than in an entirely literal, Darwinian sort of sense) or that we're somehow different from them in some great, mystic, undefinable way (bullshit). But still, this has some disturbing implications. The idea that a human mind could be controlled so easily is amazing. If all it takes are electrical signals to take control of the human body and fool the conscience, imagine the possible applications for secret government affairs, or terrorism for that matter. As interesting as I find it, I hope that no one ever finds a reason or need to put this to use.
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  #7  
09-27-2005, 02:34 PM
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Ah, I read about this not too long ago. I have no doubt that computers will eventually be able to simulate a human perfectly, its just a matter of processing power and proper programming (using neural networks)
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  #8  
09-27-2005, 04:29 PM
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That's not depressing at all...

Interesting thread though.
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  #9  
09-27-2005, 04:30 PM
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In various episodes of Star Trek - way before any of this research was released - quite a few of the characters can be quoted as saying that we as humans are merely bioelectrical self replicating self aware androids.

I find it to be an interesting prediction, because it seems so logical. When you look at the human anatomy you begin to realise that we're nothing more than machines. Every part of us is where it is and does what it does because that's what's most efficient. So it follows that the brain works in a robotic way too.
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  #10  
09-27-2005, 06:10 PM
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:
Uh...I have brain damage now, sorry i'm not so smart please make a MUCH shorter version.
No. Shrink shouldn't have to make a condensed version to cater to the stupid. Read it yourself.
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  #11  
09-27-2005, 07:32 PM
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Well, I'm convinced I'm a clone, I'll make a thread of it when I get a pic of the guy who I'm a clone of.

That's cool, I kinda new that, but it rocks anyways
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  #12  
09-27-2005, 08:34 PM
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Well, I'm convinced I'm a clone, I'll make a thread of it when I get a pic of the guy who I'm a clone of.

That's cool, I kinda new that, but it rocks anyways
Youre my clone
Back to seriousness, This actually seems logical.
It's sorta like Morpheusus's(sp?)(Yes I know, Matrix qoute, flames to come, blah blah blah)
Definition type thing for real:
Then Real, simply put, are electrical impulses from you brain.
Thats not the actuall qoute, but I'm not a Matrix FANATIC.
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  #13  
09-27-2005, 09:06 PM
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That's really cool... and complete bullshit.

1) Everyone's brain is wired up differently. They can't just pop on some electrodes and make you move your head side to side.

2) If this were true, why do we not justify why our leg bounces when hit by a reflex hammer?

It is a long and complicated philosophical question regarding whether there is something as real consciousness or just an illusion and I haven't yet made up my mind, to tell you the truth. But I'm not going to be convinced on this one until you can find me a scientific paper or a report from a reputable media source.

:
Ah, I read about this not too long ago. I have no doubt that computers will eventually be able to simulate a human perfectly, its just a matter of processing power and proper programming (using neural networks)
Well that's another philosophical discussion. I'll pull the exact quote out of my AI notes for you.

:
Strong AI:
Thinking is merely the manipulation of formal symbols, and that is exactly
what the computer does: it manipulates formal symbols.
“The mind is to the brain as the program to the hardware”

Weak AI:
-is represented by more cautious approach. It is belief that computer models are being useful in studying the mind in the same way that they are useful in
studying weather, economics or molecular biology.
Personally, I edge more towards the weak theory of AI.

And to bring up one more thing you said, Neural Networks are never going to be used to simulate a human because that's not what they do. First of all, a NN is not a computer program that simulates a brain, it is a program that uses a system similar to a simplified neuron. Secondly, you don't program a NN, you train it; give it a task and then tell it how close it is to giving the correct response and it will eventually give only correct answers. Thirdly they are used for recognising patterns (eg vision systems, 20 Questions), not AI as seen in computer games or to think like a human.
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  #14  
09-27-2005, 11:00 PM
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I was writing this thread with a number of sources by my side. Most were American University releases and papers.

:
1) Everyone's brain is wired up differently. They can't just pop on some electrodes and make you move your head side to side.
I disagree.

:
2) If this were true, why do we not justify why our leg bounces when hit by a reflex hammer?
That's a reflex, which is different, and works differently.
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  #15  
09-28-2005, 08:26 AM
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I was writing this thread with a number of sources by my side. Most were American University releases and papers.
...So give us some detail.

You may disagree with my notion that everyone's brain is wired up differently but do you not agree that our brains are formed by the connections of neurons, which is not wholly controlled by our DNA? The learning process affects which neurons connect into each other, which is what makes us who we are.

When scientists are reading brain activity patterns, everyone reacts differently to the same stimuli. That's why that sort of study needs large numbers of test subjects to find patterns - the results are similar for all people but not exactly the same.

:
That's a reflex, which is different, and works differently.
Perhaps, but what we are talking about is involuntary movement so they are at least in the same family.
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  #16  
09-28-2005, 09:01 AM
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A reflex is involuntary.
Spontaneously moving your finger in the next minute is voluntary, you just don't think about it. Quite different.

Sorry about not giving sources.
Sources:
An article by Jame Rachels (~2000)
Wilder Penfield, The Excitable Cortex in Conscious Man (1958)
Jose M. R. Delgado, Physical Control of the Mind (1969)
The Kornhuber experiement: Behamin Libet, "Unconscious Cerbral Initiative and the Role of Conscious Will in Voluntary Actions," The Behavioral and Brain Sciences 8 (1985)

Woo, quite a lot of sources for such a short text by me. Technically speaking, I only used the article, which used all of those sources, and a photocopy of a certain area of one.
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  #17  
09-28-2005, 12:33 PM
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Well, I'm not going to get into this debate of what's true and what's not...

But if this study is accurate and the people could be made to do something by the stimulation, I wonder if it would be possible to make a person not do something--like stopping an act of violence.
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  #18  
09-28-2005, 12:53 PM
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I'm amazed, like really, wow. Now I just need to tell my friends: "Toldyasoo"
:
2) If this were true, why do we not justify why our leg bounces when hit by a reflex hammer?
Why does a spring fly through the air when you release it from compression?
E-movement * E-spring » E-movement, if I'm correct.

:
1) Everyone's brain is wired up differently. They can't just pop on some electrodes and make you move your head side to side.
Hmm, 50% true.
Your name-remembering-braincells probably are arranged all differently, same goes for some movements probably. But, your brain-lobes are arranged just like mine.

We need Teal.
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  #19  
09-28-2005, 02:45 PM
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I'm amazed, like really, wow. Now I just need to tell my friends: "Toldyasoo"
Why does a spring fly through the air when you release it from compression?
E-movement * E-spring » E-movement, if I'm correct.


Hmm, 50% true.
Your name-remembering-braincells probably are arranged all differently, same goes for some movements probably. But, your brain-lobes are arranged just like mine.

We need Teal.
Here ya go :P.
Anyways, I never really thought of the leg-hammer thing as a reflex. I always did it on purpose...
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  #20  
09-28-2005, 03:59 PM
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Actually, reflexes are caused by stimulating nerves to fire their electrical charge into muscle groups. Stimulating an area of the brain with an electrical charge has the same effect of stimulating the nerve, but rather than a simple, single action, the nerve triggerings are far more controlled and operate over a sequenced pattern.

It's a so far proven theory that as we learn how to move our bodies around, our brains wire themselves up in these sequences to trigger nerves to move muscles in the right order. Each and every necessary sequence, as well as variables and room for new sequences, are accounted for and acommodated.

By analysing data from scans, areas of the brain responsible for certain actions can be pinpointed and tracked to work out roughly where an electrode needs to be placed in order to initiate that action.
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  #21  
10-01-2005, 07:05 PM
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^ How is that you know so many things about stuff? ^

Dat's just crazy.

Anyway, this whole idea is tre coolio, and I've been "examining" it to an extent. To be honest, it's doesn't appear to be that credible, but maybe that's jsut because it's true. Maybe my brain does make up functions for my involuntary twitches.

It's hard to say, because your battling your mind with your mind, which can be an incredibly difficult task. Maybe one made for ROBOTS!

I fear that I will never again be able to use that emoticon.
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  #22  
10-02-2005, 09:21 AM
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^ How is that you know so many things about stuff? ^
Several of my college lecturers have this weird low pitched droning voice that penetrates the skull, forcing the mind into a hypnotic state of receptiveness.

Honestly I don't know. The only serious explanation that I can think of is that since I get bored REALLY quickly when I'm at home on the internet (as opposed to out with friends or doing stuff) I look things up, randomly search google, read stuff, etc. The end result is that I win all the local pub quiz nights and go home with hampers of crap that my parents end up using. (although I did win a free pint once which amazingly was given to and consumed by your humble underaged scribe.)
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  #23  
10-05-2005, 11:22 AM
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That's an interesting article, Shrink. It sounds logical to me, the human brain might work as a computer, they are both working with electrical charges.

:
But if this study is accurate and the people could be made to do something by the stimulation, I wonder if it would be possible to make a person not do something--like stopping an act of violence.
A medical revolution, that would be. I think that could cure some neural diseases too, for example.



I don't have biology lessons now, and I still learn loads from threads like this. Great thread!

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  #24  
10-05-2005, 11:40 AM
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This is a very interesting article Shrink, and I do agree with your idea. Although I domn't really know enough about this subject to say much, I will say that it does sound like it is theoretically possible to 'mind control/mind read' people. Of course, I don't actually think that, which is why I say in theory. I only theorize this becuase
1) Your article said that scientists could make people do things by stimulation of the brain- thus mind control.
2) The thing about the electrodes being able to tell a scientist what you're going to do before you do it- mind reading.
Obviously there isn't really a practical, undetectbale way you could implement this for things like terrorism, politics, investigating crimes etc. but there may be one day.

And, seeing as I heard somewhere that a certain wiring up of electrodes on a sleeping person can project the image of a dream, I wouldn't be surprised by this. And don't ask where I heard that as I think it was on a TV program, and no I have no evidence to support it, I just think it could be true as if electrodes can tell what the mind will do a fraction of a seond before the body does it, then maybe the electrodes can send dreams as neural patterns and configure them into an image. Of course this is a mix of fantasy and speculation, but you never know.
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  #25  
10-05-2005, 02:04 PM
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Mmm, there are some interesting moral implications of this too. For instance if this technology is used to suppress criminal urges, who would decide what would be considered "criminal", and at any rate what right would they have to control someone elses mind?
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  #26  
10-05-2005, 03:20 PM
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I think it's a long way from being able to control anybody's mind so fully, particularly without long study of each subject. I don't know if it's even possible.
I can't really see how they would repress criminal urges. Would they wait for one to suddenly appear, and in the less-than-a-second it takes to perform it, somehow block it from getting to where it goes?
Most (if not all) actions are entirely spontaneous, including thoughts or thinking about something. The mind moves along spontaneously, and you (spontaneously) create reason and a 'history' for it.
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  #27  
10-24-2005, 12:54 PM
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:
:
1) Everyone's brain is wired up differently. They can't just pop on some electrodes and make you move your head side to side.
I disagree.
I hate to say "I was right" but, what the heck;

I was right, right, right
And you were wrong, so wrong.
So full of shite, shite shite
You wear a skin-tight thong...

I'm not sure what that last line was about but it rhymes.

Anyway, I happened across a Scientific American article (October 2005 for those playing at home) about the guy who did this research, Jose Manuel Rodriguez Delgado. In summation; yes, the implants did amazing things, and could prompt strong emotions such as "fear, rage, lust, hilarity, garrulousness and other reactions". Yes, one (ONE!) guy came up with excuses for why he was looking around ("I was looking for my slippers"). BUT, "results varied widely from patient to patient and could be unpredictable even in the same subject (my emphasis).


heh, sorry to be a bad winner but I'm more used to being proved wrong; I need to relish the experience when I can.
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