Making Abe work in 3D

[Eibu]

Well I’ve been thinking how Abe’s powers could work in a 3D universe but make them more like a direct translation from 2D (and then some)…these are just my ideas, I’m not screaming “This is the way it should be” but just putting them out there and sharing them for the criticism of all.

First about Abe’s Movement:Basically I imagine there are three degrees of “pressure” you can put on the analog stick and they are – light, normal, and hard.
Pushing the stick normal makes Abe simply walk and probably would only be used in situations where you would want to avoid falling but don’t have to sneak. Pushing the stick lightly would make Abe sneak and make that humorously loud sneaking noise to walk past sleeping enemies. Pushing the stick hard (which is what happens most of the time) makes Abe run.

Pushing down on the analog stick while standing still makes Abe crouch. Now you don’t have to hold it down only click it. While in this crouched position pushing the analog stick lightly or normally makes Abe crawl (a new movement). Pushing it hard makes Abe roll. And it works while already in movement, say you’re running away from something and you need to roll underneath something, while running you simply depress the analog stick and Abe will start rolling (just like pressing X on the PS).

Jumping should return to the classic style. Standing still and hitting the jump button, let’s say A, makes Abe jump up with arms extended in the air like he’s trying to grab something. Jumping while moving makes Abe leap. (all this is just like the previous games but in 3D). But now that we are in 3D, when he’s hanging off a platform Abe can shimmy along sideways while hanging. To climb up just hit A again and to fall back down depress the analog stick.

And to press buttons, use Vendos, turn wheels, and pull levers there should be another action button other than the jump button. I think that covers movement.

Next about Abe’s Chanting Powers: Get ready for more boring detail!!
Here I should start out saying I also envision one-hit kills and no spooce so keep that in mind. First off I think both shoulder Triggers should be held in order to Chant. Of course the first function of chanting is to open bird portals to free Muds and if they stay open let you travel through them.

Possesion: Possession should work like this – Abe sits in a safe place and starts Chanting holding both Shoulder Triggers down. The light show will flicker around Abe and after a few moments the nearest creature [see my Possession guide further down] that can be possessed, is. No spooce. No steering orbs.

Hidden Messages: Remember the Hint Flies from Oddysee? Well they are back (in 3D of course) and chanting near them makes them start to form words (natural LED screens). HOWEVER I came up with something new! Chanting can reveal hidden messages that are invisible others. Examples – In an industrial area there is one wall with a ton of random graffiti on it. Chant and the camera will pull away to make the wall more visible and a usefull (or useless) message will glow in blue letters on the wall. This can also be used to make blue arrows glow on the ground possibly leading you to a secret area and whatnot.
I guess I can explain my camera system here since I mentioned it. The camera is stapled to your back MOST OF THE TIME. Example – you are running towards a cliff meanwhile the camera is giving you a nice view of Abe’s rear. Then when you get to the edge of the cliff the camera flips around and zooms out to give you a view of the Scrab you need to posses below the cliff and Abe’s mug is also in the scene.

Chant Circles: Standing in a purple chant circle and chanting summons the floating spirit of a Shaman who can give you advice and power ups. Blue chant circles are used for storm circles and controlling weather. Green chant circles can be for opening up doors or activating wells. Herding Muds into a giant red chant circle to power them up into warriors instead of individualy. I am pro warrior Mud but I don’t think they should be your army like they are in Munch. They should only be used to take out one Big Bro that stands in your way or one group of sligs instead of the entire levels worth of bad guys.

Regrowing Plantlife: This is a new concept which sort of takes from spooce and some old videos of tree growing Muds. Example – you need to get up to a cliff but it’s too high to reach and there is no Bounce Vendo, BUT there is a dying tree next to it. Start chanting and watch the tree slowly form back to life and grow with convenient branches for Abe to climb. Another Example – Abe is running from a Slig in an outside environment and needs a place to hide, and the camera focuses out from Abe’s back and reveals some saplings in the corner. Stand in the corner and chant to quickly grow the saplings into concealing bushes and watch the Slig run past Abe.

Healing: Let’s not let that big ass chest tattoo go to waste! Either a gift given by a Shaman, Bird Portal with a number in it, or possibly a Vendo, Abe will glow with a golden energy. What’s the use of this? Well in MY game there are Muds who are either sick from brew or are seriously injured from constant beatings and can’t follow you when you ask. Well now that you are glowing with gold energy chant and a wave of Healing power will rush over sick and injured Muds so they can now follow you.

Shrykull: And let’s not forget about his hand tats! By the same means as above, although I doubt a Vendo can give you this power, receive a red glowing aura for Abe. Now get to where you are supposed to and chant transforming Abe into Shrykull and blowing the hell out of everything in the area.

Farts: That’s right I want explosive farts back! Drink some brew and press a button to let a fart loose. Now the fart will hover there and start to change color and countdown till is explodes. OR you can possess it and have a nifty weapon. To steer the fart use the analog stick to move it on a level plane. To raise it’s altitude press down on one of the triggers to make it rise. To lower it and lose altitude depress the analog stick button. The fart will go off by itself after some time or you can detonate it by chanting.
Jeez this is turning out longer than I thought.

Now about Gamespeak: Abe and everyone else should have a deeper gamespeak. Going back to the old convention of holding down one of the shoulder buttons (doesn’t matter) and either push or hold one of the four face buttons.
Abe: Of course Abe can say hi to one or all. Say wait, work, follow me, attack and some other various words or noises for puzzle solving purposes. The Mudokon emotions should also return and Abe could have multi-button conversations to work through the Muds problem and finally get him to obey the Follow Me command.
Sligs: Yeah sligs have gamespeak and can use it to open slig locks and open doors. But here is the puzzle part, some doors are only opened by a secret Slig code which can be found posted on a wall somewhere or maybe Abe needs to find it first using his Hidden Message chanting power. Flying sligs would also return and can be controlled the same way as Farts.
Gluks: As a Gluk you can order your employees to do different things and access factory computers to manipulate different sections of the place.
Paramites: By yourself you are a strong killing force but get round up your buddies to take out larger or multiple creatures and also get them to help you solve puzzles like pulling chains and standing on pressure plates.
Scrabs: This is the simplest and all you do is roar and weaker Scrabs will follow you. I say weaker because the Scrabs who think they dominate you will chase you and you have to use your shred power to kill them before they do you while the weakers ones will cower away from you unless you roar to make them follow not-to close behind you to say round them up and unposses them so Abe can pull a lever trapping them in a pen.
Vykkers: similar to Gluks I guess (haven’t played Munch and don’t know much about them yet).

And finally General Crap:
Non linear level design. Example – after arriving in a Mud villiage Abe is escorted by Big Face to a temple. At the main foyer of that temple are three different archways that branch off into different paths. At the end of each path lies a portal to a different area of Oddworld. Once you complete that area you return to the temple and can choose a different path. I would also like to see puzzles with multiple solves but not so non-linear that you could exploit a power up and just blow through the level. Elum should return and runs way faster than Abe and can leap over wide obstacles and gaps. Hey one level could have you race against other Elums and one where you run away from something.

My thoughts on Munch: I can’t play Munch until X-Mas but from what I hear his Head-Jack is underused. Instead of just Snoozers and Cranes he should also be able to puzzle solve your way into a security room and then jack into the computer and turn off the Alarm for Abe, or manipulate doors to trap baddies and open up paths. Munch could also jack into wider variety of robots with different functions, control, and weaponry. Stand next to a chant supressor which Munch can take control of, shock some sligs to get them to follow the orb and then run the orb into some mines to get rid of it and the annoying group of sligs. There can also be a type of mine that can only be disarmed by Munch jack-zapping it. I think it would be neat if Munch could go into 3D underwater environments and swim around the same way Farts and Flying Sligs are controlled.

Well if you’ve read this far thanks for your patronage. If you have any questions I've probably thought about so go ahead and ask.

[Chris Co Depot]

I think OWI should really look at this you have some great ideas here that would make a much better MO then what OWI came out with and it looks well thought out with lots of detail. One reason that made me mad about the oddworld games is OWI's inconsistancey from game to game very little stays the same and I just don't like that. its almost like a different group of people make each game!

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Co Depot ]

[SeaRex]

Your welcome.
Most of your ideas are very good. Do us all a fovor and go work for OWI. ^_^

EDIT: Ah Crap. Someone replied before I did. Now it looks like I just copied them...

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: SeaRex ]

[FuzzyFuzzle]

Now that you've read Eibu's long post, you can read my careful disection of Eibu's control's, and my rants on why Eibu is cool and should be hired by some game company (probably OI).

First off Movement. The first two paragraphs are pretty much what is in MO, except that clicking the analog stick makes Abe sneak fast (which I think is just ridiculous). I like having multiple levels of music, so I like you're version much better.

Now for Chanting powers, I'm at a delima (sp). I really hate spooce and the movement thingies, but if it is the closest creature than you might get stuck with someone through a wall, or a wimpy slig when you wanted to go a bit farther and get a Big Bro. I think one way that might work, while looking tacky, is to freeze everything and let the player cycle through all the enemies in range. That's kind of bad looking though, and takes the player out of immersion. But I'll go to the other powers...
Hidden Messages is awesome. 'Nuff Said.
Chant Circles seem interesting. In MO you make your Muds do most of the work, and it'd be cool to actually control weather, maybe through a cloud that goes around and can shock machinery/sligs, and rain on parched areas. But it might be too powerful, it'd take some serious testing.
Regrowing Plantlife, IMHO, should be left to the Treehugger muds, which is a different type of powered up Mud. In the perfect Oddworld game, there would be different kinds of powered up Muds, such as Tomahawkers and Mudarchers (duh), Medics, Treehuggers, some type of Shaman, and Stealth Muds. This would encourage a little more thinking than "Collect Spooce. Upgrade Muds." You'd have to think of what Muds would be best for each level.
Healing could also be used to heal Muds injured in Battle, or your partner(s).
Mmm...3D Shrykull...*drool*
Farts seem a little hard to fly at the moment, but it's kind of hard to visualize.
Gamespeak...what makes and breaks Oddworld games...I'm not sure about emotions again. Too many combinations of buttons are too confusing. I drove many a Mud to suicide in AE by acidently pressing slap instead of sorry. And the emotions were a little shallow, and it seems almost better to give different Muds different voices speech snipets. Sligs need to be able to control Slogs! In MO they don't . Glukkon Gamespeak needs to be totally redone, so that Glukkons can do more than spit random catch phrases. I was so excited about being able to control entire factories. Paramite and Scarab Gamespeak, in a word, sucked. And Vykker gamespeak didn't have any point either. They should be able to control laboratories and Inters.
NON-LINEAR!!! THAT"S WHAT ME NEEDS!!! But in your game can you return to some areas after you've gone? I know that just combing over factories over and over until you find all the muds is un-fun, but tinkering with factories and tending to the enviornment. The best cure to this is to hide the muds better, so that it's harder to tell the amount of Muds/Fuzzles in each area.
Munch was kind of underdone in MO. He was good only in certain situations, while Abe was more all around good.

So, In conclusion, Eibu's design is very good. I've never given much thought to how the perfect MO controls would look, and an OI should definetly look over this. Bravo!

[Eibu]

Domo Arigato Gozaimashita Chris-san, SeaRex-san and Fuzzy-san!

And Thanks for your criticism Fuzzy-san and I would like to adress a few of your comments.

About Chanting: I have no idea how programming games work right now but the computer would "make" you possess what was right for the current puzzle/situation (like in the previous Oddworld games).

I really like your idea about other types of Muds. When I thought up the "plant life" idea I had those Muds with rice-picker hats in mind.
So for Example: You still need to get up to that cliff but you can't reach it, there is no Bounce, but you are left with a stump of a tree that has been cut down by industry. Go find a Native Mud, get to a transformation shrine, turn the Native into a "rice-picker" (i love those hats!), lead your new Treehugger to the stump, tell him to "work" and he'll start chanting to make the tree come back to life.
Another Example - Inside a giant Mudokon windmill is an inactive Transport Well. To activate the well you have to get the Windmill blades turning. To do this you need wind. Go find some Native muds, find a transform shrine, turn them into Shamans, lead them to the Storm Circle, tell them to work and they'll start chanting, the Storm Circle will activiate causing the winds to blow and the Windmill to spin thus activating the Well!

Regarding Farts - I was rushing to explain everything so let me explain "Fart Control" more: Pressing the Fart button will make Abe fart and can also get the attention of other creatures.
Example: Munch puzzles his way to a control port and jacks into the light controls dimming the lights thus creating a ton of shadow zones for Abe to sneak around in. Abe sneaks into a shadow zone and then farts to get the attention of a Slig (if you say Hello the slig will know its a Mud and shoot to kill). The slig will say something like "Somethin' Smells" and run to investigate it leaving the coast clear.

Now you drink a bottle SoulStorm from a Vendo (which BTW has limited uses in my game). After ingesting brew farting produces an explosive fart. Chant to posses this fart. Now i've come up with a simplier control scheme for Farts. Pressing the Y button makes the fart rise up. Pressing the X button makes the fart sink down. Using the analog stick moves the fart around the level plain like it would any character (those of you who have played Zone of Enders for PS2 KNOW this control scheme can work!) And to detonate the fart simply unposses it.

I agree with your comment about Mud emmotions seeming shallow and maybe to complex but this time screwing up would not kill the Mud only reset the "conversation". Think about this: X-Box controller has two shoulder buttons and analog face buttons you can either tap or hold. This can give you up to eight or sixteen (depending on if you make the seperate shoulder buttons do different or same function) different "types" of things to say.
In my head (and this is probably a programmers nightmare) but there should be many different Mud voices (although not EVERY Mud should have a different voice, thats asking too much for now). Say "What's up" to a Mud and he may reply "Life Sucks". Now then one combo of Gamespeak could be the "Question" button and in this situation pressing it could make Abe say "Why do you say that?". Now the Mud could reply with a Depressing answer "Everyone's dead", an Angry answer "THEY KILLED TAD!", a Silly Answer "Pull My Finger!", and so forth. To deal with a Depressing answer use the "Sympathy" Gamespeak combo making Abe say something that pertains to the situation. The Silly answer could be dealt with using the "Aggressive" button or if the Mud takes offense use the "Laugh" button to appease the comedian.

You get the gist of what I'm saying. NOt just have him glow blue or red, but rather they each have individual problems and sayings and Abe deals with them individualy. In essence it's still shallow but superficially it sounds cool and innovative. Might be too complex for the likes of some people still.

Fuzzy-san you beat me to it! I was going to go back and edit SligSpeak so you could control Slogs.

Well this post took a while so if some more people have replied thank you as well!!

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Eibu ]

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Eibu ]

[Eibu]

My In-depth Gamespeak: Like I said depending on if you have L Trigger and R Trigger do different things you can have Sixteen different Gamespeak Options. HOWEVER this is A LOT and probably unecessary (and scary for the designer). So the better choice would be to make L Trigger OR R Trigger be the GameSpeak (you pick whatever is comfortable). Now this gives you Eight Options and here is a skeleton of my idea.
Trigger can be EITHER L or R

Trigger + Tap Y = Single Hi. “What’s up?” “Hello!”

Trigger + Hold Y = Group Hi. “Everybody!” “All’o’ya!”

Trigger + Tap X = Follow Me. “Come on!” “Uh, follow me!”

Trigger + Hold X = Position. Example: You bring a group of Shaman Muds to a Storm Circle but instead of herding them individually into each Chant Circle you press this button combo near the Storm Circle and they’ll automatically find their own Chant Circle to stand in by themselves!

Trigger + Tap A = Work. “Do it!” “Little help please?”

Trigger + Hold A = Attack. Used much less often in this game than Munch (special occasions)

Trigger + Tap B = Sympathy. Further explained below.

Trigger + Hold B = Aggressive.

Example--You walk up to a Mud and here is the situation.
Trigger + Tap A
Abe: Hello!
Mud: *sigh*
Trigger + Tap X
Abe: Follow Me!
Mud: Nah…
Trigger + Tap A
Abe: What’s the matter?
Mud: What’s the point in living?
Trigger + Tap B
Abe: Cheer up! I’ll make things better.
Mud: Well…OK I guess I can trust you.
Trigger + Tap X
Abe: So follow me!
Mud: I guess.

As you can see the Mud didn’t completely cheer up but Abe talked to him enough to get him to follow him finally.

Here’s another example
Trigger +Tap A
Abe: What’s up?
Mud: Wanna’ hear a joke?
Trigger + Tap A
Abe: I guess so.
Mud: Pull my finger. Haha!
Trigger + Tap X
Abe: OK, well follow me.
Mud: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, get it?!
Trigger + Hold B
Abe: Snap out of it man! *slap*
Mud: Ouch. Thanks I needed that.
Trigger + Tap X
Abe: This way please.
Mud: Sure thing, Abe!
After some puzzle solving you reach a Shrine
Trigger + Hold X
Abe: Stand over there.
Mud: What, here? Mud walks into red circle
L Trigger + R Trigger
Abe: Chanting "RluRluRluRluRluRlu"
Shrine shocks Mud
Mud: What the AAAAHHHH!!
after transformation
Mud: Cool.
Trigger + Tap X
Abe: This way!
Mud: Coming.
Walk up to a sleeping Slig
Trigger + Hold A
Abe: Charge!
Mud: Geronimo!!

As you can see it’s still pretty shallow and might be to complex but it adds another level to gameplay, enhances the use of Gamespeak and can be entertaining. Of course you could press other buttons to see what Abe and the Mud would say but it might hurt your place in the conversation and you would have to start over again…or not to make it simplier. Like I said it would be more fun if it was thought to be purely superficial but entertaining none the lesss.

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Eibu ]

[Sl'askia]

Eidu...could I have your brain? It's full of creativity and I need it to get out of my writers block...
hehe j/k, seriously though...you got some good ideas there. I'll I can say is:

OWI!!! HIRE THIS DUDE NOW!!!!

*ahem* I have spoken...*trots out*

[FuzzyFuzzle]

Hmm...the gamespeak looks like a nice meld of AE and MO. But I'm not sure how much use 'position' would have...In MO Muds go directly to the nearest circle as soon as you say 'work!'. But I guess you could use it to tell Muds WHICH tree to grow or which spiritual thingy to activate by saying 'position' over and over again until they get the right one...but I don't know. If you program the level's right than you shouldn't need to do this, and depending on how many usable items are nearby, it would be easier to pick up Muds and throw them near the right object.

This is actually evolving pretty well...I hope OI gets wind of this

Edit: And NOW I get how you'd control farts...Z.O.E. used a good system. Although speed isn't the big thing as much as control here...

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: FuzzyFuzzle ]

[Wise Abe]

Wow, that's impressive. You should definetly send this somehow to OWI. Ever think of being a programmar for a career ?

[Eibu]

Domo Dragadon-san! ::bows::
Domo Wise Abe-san...actually I have thought about working for a game company. Unfortunately I have zilch computer skills and no drawing ability. All I could do is what I'm doing right now, come up with ideas for how to improve existing games, come up with new games and game concepts, and write the stories. Now I thought there would still be a position for me in the business but the couple of actual Game Designers I have spoken with told me companies generally don't hire "writers" as a position. That made me a little disheartened I sort of gave up on that idea. I'll probably major in Japanese and become a translator or a masseuse and write in my spare time. However I must thank you all for your praises as it's lifted my creative spirit a good deal. BTW I'm graduating from high school this year and will be attending Arizona State University afterwords.

To be honest Fuzzy-san I pulled “Position” out of my ass because I didn’t want to pair FollowMe&Stay on the same button. I have only played the second Munch level of Munch’s Oddysee so I didn’t know the Muds auto-stood when you told them to work, thanks buddy. I don’t like the idea of having to keep yelling at the Muds to work until they get it right so I would have the computer programmed to have them do whatever the puzzle calls for them to do when you tell them automatically, then the game would really be frustration free!

Well you guys are probably getting tired of my ideas for one night but I can’t stop (sorry) and will now probably start to “come up” with situations in which to use “My” engine in. I wish I knew more about Munch or at least had an idea of what Lanning-san wants Munch to do so I could come up with Munch ideas too.

Scrab Situation I
You make Abe run towards the edge of a cliff where a lever is. The camera is stapled an even distance from Abe’s behind, you can’t really see what’s directly below the cliff but in the distance you can see what looks like a gated structure. When you finally arrive to the lever you have pull it using the action button and the camera jumps to the distant gate which is now lowering revealing a good sized enclosure. The camera jumps back to Abe but then swiftly (not too fast) turns around to Abe’s front and then zooms out a little. Abe and the lever are now in the upper left hand corner of your screen a little smaller than before and you can see what lies directly below the cliff where Abe stands. It’s a Scrab! Hold down L Trigger + R Trigger to make Abe start chanting.

The sparkling lights begin to swirl around Abe and the Scrab begins to howl. The lights spin faster and faster in a widening radius until the sparkles bombard the Scrab. The camera then shifts to behind your Scrab which you now have control of, and you know this because of the faint sparks that gently float out of the Scrabs head every once in a while.

Now that you have the Scrab’s perspective you can see the entire valley is inhabited by a herd of Scrabs, a fair distance away from you. You begin to gallop along closer to the group and you notice a couple of the Scrabs howl into the sky. Many of the Scrabs become startled and run away while a couple dominant Scrabs stay behind to battle eachother. While this scene is neat, that stuff isn’t your concern, however the couple Scrabs galloping toward your direction are. Ready your finger on the Action button and get ready to shred your competiton. Charge toward your agressors and take them out in a whirlwind of battle.

Now that the initial Scrabs have been taken out the victors of the background battles then start their charge for you. Take them out in an exhibition of Darwinism and prove yourself to be the strongest of the valley!! (I’m getting a little carried away).

This valley needs to be cleared so Munch can safely wheel himself to the entrance of a sewer which lies within this valley. You notice that when you start walking to the non aggressive Scrabs they nonchalantly walk away and keep their distance from you. Now that you are the only threat here are your options. Using your Scrab’s simple GameSpeak Howl into the sky and you’ll notice the other Scrabs will begin to follow you. Lead them into the pen which Abe opened up at the beginning of this puzzle and then unposses your creature. You could also slaughter the other Scrabs but you would have to lock your scrab in the pen anyway so why go through all the bloodshed? Anyhoo once in control of Abe immediately have him pull the lever again locking the Scrabs in the pen making the way clear for Munch.

Now that was a very simple exercise and it still took me 5 paragraphs to explain it…damn.

[Lampion]

Hello, Eibu-san, I like your ideas a lot, keep them comming!

I think that the main goal of gameplay is to make controls simple enough so that you can play the game easily with a control pad, and on the other hand, making the A.I. of the game powerfull enough, to handle the more complex aspects of the game.

I'd like to see the status system and the emotion system more explored in future games. I think they are great concepts that can make your gameplay experience a lot more complex and entertaining, by enhancing the characters relationships.

A good example of easy control versus powerfull AI is gamespeak. Your gamespeak system sounds cool. It keeps simple and somewhat superficial (we don't want Abe to discuss philosophy through Gamespeak) and yet funny and entertaining.

Lorne Lanning always talked about Gamespeak complexity in his early interviews, so I believe that we're gonna see that easy control versus complex experience I mentioned above, providing that the AI system can be enhanced to handle this complexity.

[Alcar]

Cool stuff Eibu,

I've always wanted to design games for companies, mainly oddworld

[Eibu]

Domo Lampion-san, Alcar-san! ::bows::

Again to be honest I'm not satisfied with any "solid" set up of the GameSpeak i've made-up. While I like how you would interact with Muds having "Multi-Button Conversations" (superficial, but in the end they would follow you!). I'll probably think about it all day at school during all three of my classes. Right now I'm leaning on "Simple Buttons, Complex Conversations" type set up.

Like one button for basic conversation such as Hello/All and continue conversation. Another button for Follow Me (before they follow you), work and or Attack. Another button for the Aggressive and Sympathetic side of Abe in convo and the same button would be wait when they are following you. I guess the final button could be used for whistling and instead of of push or hold depending on how long you hold it down. I dunno, I'm not even happy with that set up.

So basically I like the idea of Mudokons being sad and pissed (hey most would be if they were a slave) instead of glowing a certain color, and then having a simple conversation with them using GameSpeak to eventually get them to follow you.

Like i've said before I also want to have sick/injured Mud's in there for you to heal. Like the first area this happens in there is an FMV showing a Mud getting beaten by three Sligs. Then when the actual level starts you have to get rid of the Sligs. When you see the poor Mud he's all bandaged up and his legs are broken but he still has to clean the floor!!

With his legs broken he couldn't possibly follow you so you have to go find a way to give yourself the Healing Power-Up to give Abe a golden/yellow aura. Then get near the handicapped Mud and chant to send out the wave of Healing power and he is nearly instantly a normal scrub and so gratefull to you! When you ask him to follow you he'll be all happy and gitty and say something in a squeeky voice "Abe Your the Greatest!!" and follow you.

The same situation holds true for Brew-sickened Muds except instead of glowing yellow they would be stumbling around or dry heaving (hmm, little graphic maybe). And when you try to talk to them while "sick" they could say incoherent things like "YOU don't kn~ow ME, buddy!" or "Someone stop the music!".

I've been thining (duh) but even though I haven't played Munch he should also have complex GameSpeak although I guess Fuzzles aren't all that complex...oh that reminds me about Munch's underwater areas...

[Brew Master]

Eibu, excellent work, I've played Munch's oddysee, and I think all your Ideas would turn Munch from a so-so game into and Blockbluster! I thought of some of the same things as I played it....I'd like to also add, the enviorments need to be more natural looking...like Muds can actually live and work in the different places. Right now they look like game levels... games like ICO for PS2 can be a good example for what Oddworld should try to achieve mixing Gameplay with Atmosphere, and Realism.. ...no whacking jumping and spooce... nice Job Eibu you don't have to be a awesome artist to be a game designer! You got what it takes already!

[Eibu]

Arigatou Brew Master-san. Thanks for your comments everybody. About the designer thing, the people I spoke with basically said companies generally don’t hire people without a background in computer programming/graphics. I look at one of my current mentors, Hideo Kojima (creator/director of Metal Gear Solid), who not only comes up with great games but also knows the ends and outs of computers and that’s the area I lack in. I suppose I could take computer courses and go to computer universities like they advertise on TV who can promise to make you a computer wizard by the time you graduate, but my passion is more for the creative part. But who knows, I really don’t know what I want to do as a career and right now I’m waiting to get called back from Toys’R’Us…
-----------------------
As I’ve explained before any thing that needs to be controlled with complete 360° movement (Farts, Flying Sligs, Munch under water) I have borrowed inspiration from Z.O.E. by using the analog stick to move on the level plain and two face buttons to control altitude.

As for Munch underwater levels this seems like a natural aspect of Munch to exploit since he is an aquatic creature and gives him more range as a character gameplay wise. I keep repeating myself but like I’ve said I have only played one level of Munch (Hydroponic Vats I believe) and in that level he saves nothing and gets no power ups. That experience plus what I’ve read leads me to believe that Munch seems fairly underused for taking the title of the game. Also we have a good grasp on what Abe can and can’t do so it’s fairly easy to come up with ways in which to use his abilities but I can only think of three aspects of Munch to work with: Machine-Jacking/Shocking, Swimming, Wheelchair riding. I know he has sonar but I have yet to hear or read about what it does exactly.

For underwater levels Munch can swim (ala ZOE control) in murky or clear water. Most natural water sources like lakes and rivers are murky and if he had to swim lets say in the equivelant of an Oddworld lobster tank then that would be clear. The reason for under water travel would be to find levers, buttons, jacks, and to reach new areas. Those are the only basic reasons I can come up with, I leave inventing new abilities for Munch to the Inhabitants. While underwater the obstacles are floating mines, possibly predators like Sea Rex in which Munch would have to dodge and find coral coves to hide in while the creature passes.

Some other simple puzzles I can think up right now…(it’s a rainy day here in Arizona and I just feel like going back to bed - or taking care of my sick girlfriend)…are say another obstacle are large electrified nets used for catching Gabbits. Munch could somehow detach one end of the net and carefully drag it to where the Magog cargo ships or Slig submarines dock and give them a surprise.

Another water obstacle could be Gabbit seeking torpedoes produced specially for Munch and he has to swim away until he can find a safe place or detonate the torpedoes. When Munch finds the torpedo launcher he could jack into it and remote control the torpedoes.

Possibly his sonar could be used on land and underwater. By sending out a sonar wave (which is a sphere in shape) some how waves could be sent back and where ever those waves are sent back are what you are trying to locate for that level like Fuzzles, switches, doors, etc. Maybe it could reveal new stealth invisible land minds (sort of like Abe’s Spirit Messages power).

Speaking of land abilities I envision Munch controlling more than just Snoozers or cranes. There could be more of a variety of technology for him to play with. Like a mining robot who drills into the ground, and the puzzle is to tap a water source to flood the shaft so Munch can reach a higher level.

And of course the team of Munch & Abe can be an invincible force! Like in my example for Fart Control Munch can do many things by jacking into environmental controls like a port for controlling certain doors to open paths for Abe and locking baddies away. Turning off the main lights making the room dark and creating many Shadow Zones for Abe to sneak his way to a switch that will activate a well/duct for Munch to quickly join Abe’s local and then have Abe pick up Munch and high-tail it away from the Sligs Abe snuck past.

I also like the idea of taking over Chant Supressors. Say like Abe needs to posses a captive Paramite but there is a Chant Supressor hovering in the air next to a platform. So Munch makes way to that small platform via a travel duct only he could fit through, stands next to the Chant Supressor, jack into it, and then control it the same way Munch is controlled underwater. The supressor needs to be destroyed because even if you move it a long way from Abe as long as it’s in the level in can stop Abe. So move it towards some Sligs and use the action button to zap Sligs making them fire their weapons at it and eventually blowing it up. Now Abe can chant freely!

(time to go, see ya and thanks!)

[Gluk Schmuck]

Domo Eibu-san *bows*
You've tought me a lot about Japanese in this topic, thankee Eibu-san. I don't know what it means but it's probably more useful than 'Juta mat a kuda sai' (sp) (It's suppost to be 'Please hold the line' - my mum was a telephone operator!)

*camera turns to face the actual topic*

Personally, for Munch swimming, I'd prefer it to be done Spyro style - left analog-stick controls his orientation while X swims and Square charges (i.e. faster swimming).
Ape Escape uses a similar method to the one you described and it is quite difficult to control, it's possibble that it was just Ape Escape that had the difficulty because the 'go down' button made you go foreward a little at the same time and you had to float up or float up faster by pressing R1 which also made you swim faster.
In fact the Spyro style of swimming seems to be quite popular in games (that's either because of it's superiority or it's simplicity to program)

Other than the above possibble discrepency I agree completely.


On the subject of your wanting to get into the games industry. If I were you I would take a course in the basics of programming, i.e. learning to make i/o flow diagrams and maybe a little programming in C (it's useful knowing how games work at their core if you're to tell the code-monkeys what to do). Then submit your CV to a few games companies, if you don't get in consult a careers advisor (don't ask me where).
Or something like that.


Edit: I knew I forgot something...
When I first heard about Munch's sonar plug, I thought Hey, cool, I can walk up to a big machine and send it crashing into a load of Sligs! But no, you have to walk up to a remote-control or a fuzzle cage and you can't just posess anything with a battery (like Abe can with organic things).
So his inability to do the above is a real disapointment.

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Gluk Schmuck ]

[Eibu]

Thanks Schmuck-san, domo arigatou gozaimashita is the most polite basic way to say thank you. Domo is just shortened, sort of informal. About learning programming, I’ll look into it if I need something to fill out my electives when I get to college. It doesn’t seem terribly interesting to me and my friends say it’s a pain. I don’t know however, it seems I’m surrounded by computer people: My uncle has actually made games and business programs for big companies (but gets no credit, damnit), my godfather was the first inventor to put digital numbers on watches (once again no credit, my family gets screwed) and most of my friends are very knowledgeable in the field. I once thought about getting a degree in business (blah) and then starting my own company with my friends and family but that’s a long shot and would be in the future.

About Munch’s swimming: Yes that system of directional pointing does work in many games. I was going for consistency in control during the course of the game but I have no problem with the system you mentioned. Just as long as Munch does swim, heh.

One of my friends just asked me if I’m worried someone is going to steal my ideas right now. Well honestly I’m not worried about it since I doubt the chances of my ideas being implemented into the games plus they are for an existing game series so one would have to go through Inhabitants anyway. I think it would be cool if some of mine (and our) ideas were used in the games and would ask for some sort of recognition like our names at the end of the credits or a post from OI thanking us or something. Right now I feel really presumptuous so I’m going to shut up.
--------------
Driving back to school today I came up with another small idea.
Environmental Reactions.
Say like Abe & Munch are in a desert area populated by Scrabs. The sun is beating down and in the distance heat waves are seen. During the level when standing still Abe can wipe his forehead and say “Man, it’s hot here” and Munch can let his tongue hang out panting going “Water, wat~er!”. Or say our heroes are in a meat-freezer and Abe runs around with his arms hugging his shoulders, shivering, and with a chatter says “Can someone crank up the heat?”. And lamely Munch could say “Now I know how fish-sticks feel.” Small details that I feel would really help with immersion.

[Gluk Schmuck]

Originally posted by Eibu:
it seems I’m surrounded by computer people

*points to self*
I took a 'City & Guilds' in C (level 2), and my step-mum does java for some company. Ignore the latter because you've never met her, but I'm close-enough to call nearly part of the surrounding (well, our posts are separated by only 20 or so pixels).

Jut-a mat-a kuda sai (sp) Eibu-san *bows*.

On the thing about Munch swimming, I agree completely, *imagines Munch swimming IN the water* cool!

You have this topic as proof that you (and some others) had lots of ideas.

That environmental reactions thing could be extended to "Uuurg, this place stinks of [insert name of creatur here] [insert name of waste here]"
Or, "Wow, these trees are beutiful."
I like the idea of shivering a lot, but I can't think of anything for them to do in my situations...


Oh, BTW, I had a vision of being able to have a full convesation with someone in a game (inspired by Gamespeak). But I didn't have a clue of how it could be done but your idea of generic keys is a very good one.
If I had the task of making Gamespeak better, I would probably do it in a FFVII/Spyro i.e. dialog boxes, but that just wouldn't work in Oddworld.

[Eibu]

Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck:
"Uuurg, this place stinks of [insert name of creature here] [insert name of waste here]"
Or, "Wow, these trees are beautiful."
I like the idea of shivering a lot, but I can't think of anything for them to do in my situations...dialog boxes, but that just wouldn't work in Oddworld.

That’s great. They could hold their noses (if they have noses?) and they could look and move their heads around in “awe” of beautiful scenery.

And no definitely no dialogue boxes in Oddworld, for we’re trying to move away from making it “look” like a video game (which seems to be the major complaint of MO). Yes I like the idea of having “Simple Button, Complex Conversations” but so far I don’t like any of the button layouts I’ve come up with.

Also I’ve been thinking about possible criticism for one-hit kills (getting shot, blowing up, falling from high places). People might think that would make the game too hard but with programming “invisible” continue points in good places, fast-loading (which is a promise of the next game) and ample reminders of Quick-saving I don’t think it would be bad. This is also moving away from “average platformer” syndrome. Lanning-san has said in presentations that he wanted lots of speed. Well the formula in the past games has been platform hopping/solving puzzles/at your pace with inserts of high-adrenaline/quick-thinking/high-action moments.

My idea is just like this. There are a lot of times where you can walk around and find the right lever to pull, figure out how to take out that Slig, and so forth and then once you figure it out go for it. In Munch it seems like there is a ton of “Go-Go-Go-Go” moments where you just build up your army and hope they destroy and survive while you keep recharging on Expresso and run madly through the danger. But this could also be apart of “Launch syndrome” so blah…You should be running, a lot! But not just madly, there should be places where you must leap over a pit, or mine and times when you have to roll underneath something. Maybe I’m getting carried away with this and since I haven’t played Munch so I’m probably way off.

This brings me to what I think power-ups could be like. In Munch you receive a power up and you bubble and go. In the next game more detail can be spent into the way these things look. Like when you chug some Expresso and run maybe the characters can have some added blurring effects to emphasize the speed. Before when I said Abe jumps “old skool” style with his arms extended, when he drinks Bounce NOW he can do ninja fips high into the air. I haven’t seen Invisible for myself yet but I can imagine it looking like the predator invisibility effect. Maybe if they decided to put Klimb back in instead of just walking sideways they can have Abe climb like the Mudokons did in the opening FMV’s of Exoddus, wall-crawling spidey style! Munch’s Zap looks fine to me. Since I want one-hit kills maybe B-Betterz can give Abe his Healing powers instead of healing himself?

Speaking of all this one of my favorite little aspects of Exoddus were the Sligs in need of pants. PANTS VENDOS for crawling Sligs!! Maybe they could put in the “useless” Vendos for the many consumer products released from Munch and give them humorous scenes. Like there could be a Butt-Flo vendo right next to a bathroom (with a picture of a Mud on the door) and when Abe uses the Vendo he runs straight into the bathroom. Or maybe have a LungBuster Vendo and when either character uses it they keel over. Funny and Educational! (don’t smoke kids, it kills, that should earn some parental support!) Have a Chill Pill Vendo and the user mellows out for a few moments.

[Steve]

what about baby chow or gum rot you take babey chow and you gradualy get bigger and slow down (posses creature and eat until they explode or can't move) mabey with gum rot you eat it then spit out some teeth.

[Eibu]

Well I’ve decided to come up with a basic scenario which will link many of my previous Examples into one sequence. Warning: for those of you who have followed my post this may seem boring and repetitive from what I have already said.

Munch & Abe start this level in a natural Mudokon environment. They are standing next to an inactive well (no leaves are coming out of it) and a wheel chair pad, and an egg nest. Take control of Munch and grab a wheel chair. Head over to a nearby cliff where a lever is stationed and turn right till you find a narrow section Munch can safely wheel down. Once in this valley you soon discover it’s crawling with Scrabs. Quickly wheel back up the natural ramp or die and have Abe hatch the egg nest. Now this is where we go back to my previous example which I will now cut & paste from a previous post and bold face so you if you’ve already read it just skip it

[b]You make Abe run towards the edge of a cliff where a lever is. The camera is stapled an even distance from Abe’s behind, you can’t really see what’s directly below the cliff but in the distance you can see what looks like a gated structure. When you finally arrive to the lever you have pull it using the action button and the camera jumps to the distant gate which is now lowering revealing a good sized enclosure. The camera jumps back to Abe but then swiftly (not too fast) turns around to Abe’s front and then zooms out a little. Abe and the lever are now in the upper left hand corner of your screen a little smaller than before and you can see what lies directly below the cliff where Abe stands. It’s a Scrab! Hold down L Trigger + R Trigger to make Abe start chanting.

Now that you have the Scrab ready your finger on the Action button and get ready to shred your competiton. Charge toward your agressors and take them out in a whirlwind of battle. Now that you are the only threat here are your options. Using your Scrab’s simple GameSpeak Howl into the sky and you’ll notice the other Scrabs will begin to follow you. Lead them into the pen which Abe opened up at the beginning of this puzzle and then unposses your creature. You could also slaughter the other Scrabs but you would have to lock your scrab in the pen anyway so why go through all the bloodshed? Anyhoo once in control of Abe immediately have him pull the lever again locking the Scrabs in the pen making the way clear for Munch.

Now have Munch wheel into the valley and find the entrance to a waterway and have him dive in. Munch is now in a 3D underwater environment. The walls are lined with darkened coves. The reason for that is there is a large predator in this area with Munch and will make lunch of him unless you utilize these safety zones for Munch. Swim your way in and out of coves when it’s safe and make it to the other side to find an exit to the surface on the other side of the canyon. Now Munch is in the midst of the Mud village and has surfaced next to another lever and an inactive well. Have Munch activate this well which will also activate the well from the beginning of this level so Abe can join Munch on the other side.

In this area you can see a Storm Circle, a large windmill structure, and some tunnels leading to other areas. Run towards the Windmill and discover you can go inside of it. Inside is an inactive Transport Well. Place your hand up to the info stone also in this room and it tells you the well only works when the winds are mighty. Go back outside and check out the info stone next to the Storm Circle. This tells you that Mudokon Shamans can evoke the power of nature. Now you know what to do. Go ahead and leave Munch next to the Windmill.

Your going to need some Shaman Muds but there are none in this area. Go through a tunnel and in this next area is a Mud giggling to himself. Walk up to him and initiate a Simple Button, Complex Conversation by using GameSpeak on him.
GameSpeak
Abe: What’s up?
Mud: Wanna’ hear a joke?
GameSpeak
Abe: I guess so.
Mud: Pull my finger. Haha!
GameSpeak
Abe: OK, well follow me.
Mud: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, get it?!
GameSpeak
Abe: Snap out of it man! *slap*
Mud: Ouch. Thanks I needed that.
GameSpeak
Abe: This way please.
Mud: Sure thing, Abe!
Now your Mud friend is finally following you. You’ll easily find four other Mud friends who will follow you much more easily. However these Muds are only Natives. So your going to need to find a transformation shrine. Go back to the Windmill area and go through another tunnel to an area where a Treehugger Mudokon is tending to a garden. Now you see a Transformation Shrine at the very top of a wooden structure that is too high to reach. You notice that there is a wooden pull-rope lift at the top of the structure as well (inconvenient for you). At the base of the structure is a stump of a tree. Go talk to the Treehugger and get him to come over to the stump and tell him to work. The Treehugger will start chanting making the tree grow tall and strong with conveniently large branches for Abe to climb. Once you’ve climbed to the top of the structure, Abe gets on the lift and lowers it to the ground, get all six of your Muds (the 5 natives and 1 treehugger) to get on the lift and take them to the top. Have them stand in the large red circle and then begin to chant. The shrine will then turn the Muds into Shamans! Lower them back down and head for the Storm Circle.

Tell the Shamans to get to work and they’ll all position themselves in the circles and begin chanting. After the impressive show the wind blows hard and the huge blades of the Windmill begin turning. An FMV shows Abe and Munch go through the Well and end up on the other side in a beautiful area in front of a large stone structure resembling a temple sort of. Big Face shows up and tells them that this is where their Mudokons ancestors built structures that could open up portals to distant parts of Oddworld. Abe and Munch then enter the “building” (in my head it’s not so much of a temple [we have enough of those] but more like a set of catacombs that are open to the sky). Inside the gameplay resumes and you can choose to enter one of the three massive doors…

Well I’ll probably continue this tomorrow when Abe and Munch go to the dreaded “Generic Glukkon Factory”!!! But for now it’s sleepy time…

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Eibu ]

[Gluk Schmuck]

Nice one Eibu-san!

This seems to be of the same quality (if not higher) as this explanation of level design (#15 of the designer diary)
(designer diary main page)


And, personally, I like your GameSpeak button positions.
A Domo command could be useful, for example,
Abe: You lot!
Lot: What?
Abe: Could you open this door please?
Lot: Yeah, sure.
-Option A-
Abe: *walks off*
Lot: What an ungreatful bastard!
-Option B-
Abe: Thanks guys, I owe you one.
Lot: Don't mention it.
Abe: *opens portal*
Lot: *jumps through*
Lot (at the other side): What a nice guy!
But, I suppose, it may be a silly addition. It could be implemented to work automatically. I like your set of commands, but the complex conversations would have to be used sparingly at risk of boring the gamer. It could possibbly be only used for the occational native and could be more common among the slaves. It could also be used for extracting information from baddies, by posessing something with a higher status than them then they could tell you that you need to mix gum-rot and baby-chow to make an explosive that you will use to break into a high-security place.


BTW, Edge gave MO 8/10 - distinguished
considering Halo got 10/10 - revolutionary (never seen that in Edge before!) - Oddworld has some major developing to do before they will make a game as good as the one you described (or Halo for that matter).

[Eibu]

…continuing from my last post (oh and BTW thank you Schmuck-san).

You’ve decided to go through the middle door. Once you step through the darkness the other side loads and you are surrounded by tall gray, shadowed walls, statues in the background and the lack of ceiling gives a narrow view of the cloudy sky? You step forward and out of nowhere birds flutter about and culminate in a mass materializing a Mudarcher who immediately takes aim at Abe and Munch. Say “Hi” to the guardian and he quickly realizes who you are and apologizes. Abe says no problem, Munch nearly has a heart-attack, the warrior whistles at Abe and then disappears the same way he arrived.

Now in this small first room there is a closed door, some Odd looking chimes (not bells) and an info stone. The stone says the ringing of nature can open the door (or something hokey like that). Abe starts chanting but the desired effect does not take place. Instead some of the paintings depicted on the wall start glowing. The particular painting which glows shows a short creature (resembling Munch) with waves coming out of him. Switch to Munch and use his Sonar. The wave rings the chimes sending cool looking sound-waves across your screen and the door opens.

After some running, climbing, rolling, jumping, pulling, avoiding traps and all around exploration with puzzle solving you find a scraggly Native Mudokon. Say “Hello” and he’ll tell you he’s new here (a former Scrub) and got lost. Have him follow you. Along the way find some other Muds and make your way to the main room. In this room there are a circle of giant Mud statues surrounding a larger circle engraved into the floor and in the center is a psychedelic looking pad. Tell the Muds to get to work and they’ll all position themselves around the circle and chant. The middle portion glows a little bit. Have Abe & Munch stand there and a pillar of light engulfs our heroes ending this level.

My break is almost over and it’s a grueling ten minute drive back to my school, more on this later this evening…

[Jotch]

Whats all this -san stuff? Eibu-san......

[FuzzyFuzzle]

Ooo...Nice examples Eibu! They seem a lot more involving than MO. But Munch is still a dilemma...He seems almost second rate to Abe because he is only useful in certain situations, but then again maybe once Munch gets the Gabiar and hatches new Gabbit tadpoles, you can command Gabbits to do stuff.

Also, one cheesey little Gamespeak thing that could help is a Yes and a No button. This would be helpful for encounters with the important (story-wise) Mudokons that ask you stuff. Maybe there can be Quarma bonuses for the right answer (but only bonuses. Penalizing someone for role-playing their character doesn't seem nice.) I remember reading a review of some game that used a Yes/No system, and they said at first it came off kind of cheesey, but it had many ways of propelling the plot forward. This would also help in non-linear places where you may be assigned side-quests.

Also, a side-note, I think the game I was talking about was Golden Sun.

[Eibu]

Am at a friends house right now so i'm not going to have a massive post.



Fuzzy-san: What I'm trying to do with my last couple (and next couple) of post is to utilize some of my (our) ideas into basic situations and flesh them out a little more. A yes/no idea sort of makes it seem like these dating-sim/renai games I play from Japan (not very popular outside of Japan).

On Munch: That's what I've been saying as well. Munch does have some neat abilities but his physical limitations are sort of...well limiting. I haven't come up with to much for Munch because I'm waiting for the creators themselves to give him more depth in which I hope they do. Once I get my scenerio inside the "Generic Glukkon Factory" Munch will shine a little more...

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Eibu ]

[Gluk Schmuck]

Eibu-san: *keeps punching OI in the creativity*

For some strange reason (probably stupidity mixed with loyalty) I'm still getting MO but I don't have high hopes for it being my favourite game - it's going to be competing with Halo, DoA3 and JSRF for my time!!! It's not a good time to be a bad game owned by me.
By 'bad' I mean it comparitavely.

Actions plan:
Eibu-san goes and works for OI
Eibu-san becomes top level designer
The programmers recode the core then build around that
OI makes a good 3D game
Schmuck-san plays ME/whatever more than anything else (but only by a couple of hours per week)

[Jotch]

Oh-san I-san Am-san So-san Sorry-san That-san I-san Am-san Not-san As-san Smart-san As-san You-san With-san Your-san Geeky-san Sh!t-san.

Kthx-san
-Jotch-san

[FuzzyFuzzle]

Right...Anyways...

Eibu: I don't know what dating games your talking about, but I think the game I saw the yes/no thing used in was Japenese. But one thing I know, NO DIALOGUE BOXES! It looks sooo bad...

On Munch: Hmm...I always thought that Munch's powers would be exactly as versatile as Abe's. I thought'd you would be able to control big bone saws to drop on sligs, or get a bird's eye view of a factory from a security camera. But in MO there were just NOT enough things for Munch to activate. And I think different types of vehicles would be fun to possess also, to scout out stuff and kick industrial butt. And in a related note Abe should get Elums and other various creatures to ride. **BRAINSTORM** Maybe some muds could be transformed calvary, and could ride elums and have spears like in that one HoO concept art!

GS: You forgot the step where Eibu-san invites Schmuck-san and Fuzzy-san to live at OI and playtest their games for obscene amounts of $$.

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: FuzzyFuzzle ]

[Eibu]

Uh oh...I'm afraid my post may become increasingly more infrequent for I'm on the verge of purchasing Jak & Daxter: The Precursorr Legacy for PS2.

Anyhoo this has nothing to do with my design ideas but last night during my dreams I had a little flash of Abe in anime form and Munch jacked into a giant-sloppy-Oddworld-looking-robot and crushed a few buildings.