Look Mom, no topic!

[Dino]

I thought it would be an interesting experiment to have a thread without a set topic in which conversation/discussion/debate is allowed to evolve and progress naturally and without boundaries. So this thread will basically go off on one long tangent.

Now, I know this concept may seem like it's attempting to make the entire off-topic forum redundant, but I want you to trust me that it is not, and here is my reason why: We have individual threads outside of this thread to discuss anything in specific, at length and in detail, and sometimes these can be fairly difficult to think up (or at least, the original and interesting ones can). However, I believe that if we have a thread like this, that will allow free flowing discussion, we will hit upon subjects that we can then take into a new thread and discuss at length.

In simple terms, this thread will be the place where, by simply holding a conversation with everyone, we come across subjects that make us go "hmm, I think I'll make a thread about this subject". Therefore it will benefit us, the posters, and the rest of the Off-Topic forum.

Now, before you go giving me a medal for my genius, I should probably start us off with a subject.

Starting subject is illegal immigration and the way it's affecting southern American states, displacing white American citizens, who now flee in record numbers to settle in the northern states. In other words, forced segregation. And the US government is doing literally nothing about it. Hardly suprising under the Bush administration but still shocking. I was listening to a (admittedly slightly paranoid) US radio station last night, which had a caller who was explaining how third world poverty is becoming almost as commonplace in the southern united states as it is in Africa. Do you think this is neo-nazi propaganda, moneymaking-scheme driven paranoia-mongering to make ad-space more profitable, or the real deal? And if so, what are the implications?

[Daxter King]

Seeing as I live in Texas being pretty close to Mexico. There it is alot of illegal immigration going on. As what they should do about it I have no idea. Though it would be better to do something rather than nothing.

[OANST]

It is a huge problem. I agree with that. But it also isn't quite that simple. At what point did America's motto change from "give us your weak, your tired, your poor" into "I guess we'll take your rich folks and oh yeah, go fuuck yourself". These minutemen that are supposedly "protecting" our borders should be stopped at all costs. It's not going to be long before they pick up a couple nazi members who will watch the borders in hope to kill themselves an illegal. My only point is that there are no easy answers to this question.

[metroixer]

Interesting as I have a test on Mexico on Monday. I say we should get a resistence and throw bush in the ocean secretly. VIVA LA REVOULUTION! :P

[SeaRex]

I live in the south. I've traveled widely in the south. I've yet to see "third-world poverty." I've seen poor people all over, of course, but nothing quite the caliber of "third-world." I can assure you that the comparison is just rampant sensationalism.

When I see distended-bellied children walking miles just to get a pail of muddy water, I'll let you know. But right now, the closest thing we have a third-world economy is New Orleans, and that has nothing to do with illegal immigration.

For the record, I'm 100% against illegal immigration. However, part of me doesn't care, because Mexican immigrants just take all of the shitty jobs anyway, and anyone who was working these jobs before the Mexicans "stole" them couldn't have been making that much money. Still, illegal immigration is wrong. We need more electric fences, I say. A burning moat of tar along the Mexi-American border would be pretty cool, too.

But seriously, have you seen any illegal immigrant record producers? No. Just the shit jobs. I guess I'm just in a cynical mood, but the point still stands.

In other words, I can totally tolerate and agree with both sides of the argument. I also advocate both sides of the argument, depending on who I hate more at the moment.

[Statikk HDM]

"THEY TOOOCK ERRRR JOBS!!!!!!"
The only incentive businesses have to hire an illegal alien is it costs a lot less in salary and benefits. So you can either
A: Force them to pay a fair wage.
For some reason these salt of the earth, God Bless America types who in most cases are second or third generation immigrants themselves view "sand niggers" and "wetbacks" competing fairly for a fair wage as bad.
Option B
Enforce the laws:
Regardless of whether you are in favor of immigration quotas or not the fact is that there are laws to deal with this activity. Stepping up government raids and deportations of illegals in a massive way would send a message to corporate America:
Penny on the Dollar wages bring on nigh-bankrupting fines and serious criminal charges, quite possibly even politically backed and influenced boycotts. I'm surprised Little Caesar isn't all for this activity; he could just label it as "fighting terrorism" and 30 percent of the electorate will be on their knees and kissing his feet.

[Icarus]

Seeing as I live in Texas being pretty close to Mexico. There it is alot of illegal immigration going on. As what they should do about it I have no idea. Though it would be better to do something rather than nothing.

personally i sugest to "Shoot on Sight", but then they can fix your propery and stuff for like 60% cheaper than a legal person would charge. Though in the end they take up our space so yeah i sugest to "Shoot on Sight"

[MojoMan220]

Icarus, you're an idiot. Leave.


If another human being wants to live in a different region of the world, let them. Besides, most of these people just want to work/give their family a fighting chance. Sure, some bad folks will come along, but it's not as if we're not producing bad people here every day.

Now, if you're going to blame something, blame reproduction. There's already far too many people in this world, but that doesn't mean we should start drowning newborns. It's just something we, as people, need to deal with. We're not the only ones here, so yeah, sometimes we have to share our shit when we don't want to.

There are so many more areas in this country that could use this funding, but we always sacrifice quality of life for the quality of protection. Some people just don't understand the phrase "shit happens".

[Wil]

Being an insane idealist, I don't see any reason why it should illegal for a person to live on a certain piece of land just because he was born on a different piece of land. Seeing that all immigration disturbs is a system that's arbitrary anyway, I can only conclude that it's the system that wrong and needs to be fixed. It's the same system that's causing the immigration, anyway.

[Dino]

Icarus, you're an idiot. Leave.


If another human being wants to live in a different region of the world, let them. Besides, most of these people just want to work/give their family a fighting chance. Sure, some bad folks will come along, but it's not as if we're not producing bad people here every day.

Now, if you're going to blame something, blame reproduction. There's already far too many people in this world, but that doesn't mean we should start drowning newborns. It's just something we, as people, need to deal with. We're not the only ones here, so yeah, sometimes we have to share our shit when we don't want to.

There are so many more areas in this country that could use this funding, but we always sacrifice quality of life for the quality of protection. Some people just don't understand the phrase "shit happens".

The thing is, if everyone flocks to lands of opporunity because they come from lands of no opportunity, then there will be severe overcrowding... What in my opinion is needed is to fix the lands of no opportunity, basically bring the mountain (opportunity) to mohammed (third world country).

There isn't far too many people in this world from what I can see...the only way in which there are far too many people is in the person to housing ratio. There are still many vast, open spaces with nobody inhabiting them for hundreds and hundreds of miles around, so there's room for these people alright, and then some. Yes the population of earth has been getting progressively larger, but what I'm saying is the ability to house all these people hasn't grown at the same rate as the population, because housing is based on demand... and basically, someone who is poor because there is no way for him to get educated and get a job and so forth isn't going to be demanding to have a house. He'll probably be making his way to America where he has a chance, if he can do that, because the people of his government aren't presenting him with the opportunities he needs.

[Al the Vykker]

I was watching CNN the other night and what I thought was ridiculous is there are people protesting saying it isn't right, ethical, etc. to charge or prosecute illegal aliens for crimes they commit in the United States. It was also worthy of note that these protestors were also calling police or civil leaders who were not on their side biggots and racists for supporting this kind of action towards the illegal aliens.

[Leto]

I was watching CNN the other night and what I thought was rediculous were people protesting saying it wasnt right, ethical, etc. to charge or prosecute illegal aliens for crimes they commit in the United States. It was also worthy of note that these protestors were calling police or civil leaders who were not on their side biggots and racists.

God I hate them kinds of people. If you commit a crime in any region, it accompanies certain consequences. You steal my bread, I'mma hit you upside the head with my broom.

"THEY TOOOCK ERRRR JOBS!!!!!!"

So let's all get gay so they'll never exist! JOBS!

[used:)]

Click derk Scaga derk.

The problem with illeagal immigrants is that if there is one bad apple, then they are all seen as filty, lazy free loaders by the country itself. The only thing the US's politicans are doing about it is being benevolent to win the votes of the mexican americans. It's bullshit.

[OANST]

Another huge problem that arises with it is the massive amount of drug trade that is accompanied by it. Anyone willing to say that this problem is an absolute wrong or an absolute right is a fool, however. As with most things, it is complicated. As I said before, there are no easy answers.

[Splat]

THe fact is among immigrants there are very few bad apples. People are leaving countries where they have no livelyhood to earn a decent living.

Culture differences, language barriers and society-programmed zenophobic views (fear of foreigners) lead people to expect the worse from immigrants. As Dino said, the reason they're coming here for our jobs and houses is because their own homes are falling apart. But no one wants to fix them! We're all focussing on third world at the moment, but third world countries arent the only ones in need of help! No one's intertested in helping, we're kicking them out and giving them no where to go.

People complain about redundancy, but there are small jobs, shop keepers, taxi drivers, so on and so forth, that no one wants to take, even though they're open! So thge immigrants take em! First come first served, if we got rid of the immigrants would you take the jobs they're leaving.

Little challenge for everyone here, stop thinking of the world as a set of continents, countries, states, counties, cities, neighborhoods, streets, houses. Think of the Earth as the Earth. Don't make mental divisions and barriers, see it as a whole.


Oh, and Dino, here ya go, just what you wanted.

[SeaRex]

The main problem I have with illegal immigration is the language barrier. Practically no illegal immigrants come to America speaking English, and almost none of them learn the native tongue.

Yes, English is indeed a hard language to learn, and if the immigrants are illegal, they probably don't have the time or money to take classes, but it is my belief that it is common courtesy for an immigrant coming into any country to already be at least partially fluent in the native language. As an immigrant, it is your responsibility to adapt to your new home; you shouldn't expect your new home to adapt to you.

This ideological "there shouldn't be any countries" thing is a pipe dream, in my humble opinion. If you think that most cultures wouldn't settle only with similar cultures, then you're kidding yourself. Of course there would be pockets of mixed peoples all over, like we have now, but for the most part, I'm sure most would follow the old "to each their own" motto, especially with the popularized "contemporary racism" that we have today. There would be centralized hubs of certain ethnicities forming their own laws and rules, and before you know it, we would have countries all over again.

I believe that a suddenly removing social barriers like countries and such would just promote fear, misunderstanding, and more racism, especially if I were to be correct in my little "to each their own" voluntary segregation theory thing.

[Coolmanbizkit]

The main problem I have with illegal immigration is the language barrier. Practically no illegal immigrants come to America speaking English, and almost none of them learn the native tongue.

Yes, English is indeed a hard language to learn, and if the immigrants are illegal, they probably don't have the time or money to take classes, but it is my belief that it is common courtesy for an immigrant coming into any country to already be at least partially fluent in the native language.

I agree with that completly, But england instead. At least 60-70% of the Muslims i see in London dont speak English (Not being racist/discriminative. But i see mostly Muslim/Hindu's. Also I know this because when asked something in english, They stare while looking confused then walk off. Also, Many speak thier native language, I don't have much of a problem with this, But you dont see many of them speaking english.).

[Wil]

This ideological "there shouldn't be any countries" thing is a pipe dream, in my humble opinion.

Well of course it is. That's what ideologies are. Thinking logically and laterally will produce the same opinion. The trouble with arbitrary countries is that they disturb various cultures' important things like language and arts, while the trouble with cultures is that they disturb the running of countries with their silly things like (IMO) traditions and religion. Erm, I'm not really going anywhere with this, but I felt the need to stand up for anti-country ideas.

Also I know this because when asked something in english, They stare while looking confused then walk off. Also, Many speak thier native language, I don't have much of a problem with this, But you dont see many of them speaking english.).

I'm in no way pretending to be familiar with your area, but it could be they simply stared at you blankly because you were a stranger in a culture they're not yet settled in to, or because you were speaking more colloquially, whereas their business and governmental interactions might perhaps take sympathy and enunciate clearly.

In my limited experience, immigrants who don't seem to speak English well actually surprised me with their levels of comprehension. It might not perform well in a GCSE, but all they need is enough to get them by.

[Icarus]

"THEY TOOOCK ERRRR JOBS!!!!!!"

Those Immagrants are taking our Jobs

They Toooook err JuRrrrBs!!!!!!!

Anywayz i also hate it when the Fucking come here and can't even Speak English????? WTF??? And on top of that they except us to speak their language????? FUCK THEM!!!

[Wil]

Well now, Icarus, no one's saying that they can't speak English at all. I don't think there's any evidence for that, at least for voluntary immigrants seeking better jobs and money. It would also be a gross generalisation if we were to fuck all immigrants when many can speak better English than most ‘natives’. Your own level of English proficiency (e.g. spelling, grammar, register) makes me wonder what you do consider acceptible.

Then there are those who are seeking asylum because of political disputes. My expertise on the subject will forever be jelly-like and poor, but it seems to me it's those who most desperately need our humanitarian support that are entering most illegally.

[MojoMan220]

Those Immagrants are taking our Jobs

They Toooook err JuRrrrBs!!!!!!!

Anywayz i also hate it when the Fucking come here and can't even Speak English????? WTF??? And on top of that they except us to speak their language????? FUCK THEM!!!

If you haven't noticed Icarus, a lot of people are actually trying to have an intelligent discussion on this subject. Please try and keep your ignorance to yourself.

Your own level of English proficiency (e.g. spelling, grammar, register) makes me wonder what you do consider acceptible.

Max FTW!

[Dino]

On the point of removing national devisions and having earth as one big country, I would like to add that there is a list of advantages and disadvantages to world rule:

A world ruler is a dangerous thing.
Oppression would be an ever-present threat.
Decentralising power and establishing individual countries has the practical advantage of being able to deal with localised issues more effectively.
Hatred and racism would inevitably leach it's nasty way into the system, crushing local cultures and diversity.
The international community is doomed to failure due to it's lack of community spirit and it's cold, inhuman nature. It's logical that subversive, underground counter-cultures would form, and people would go back to their local community roots.

Those are the disadvantages, however the advantages, when applied to a more advanced human civilisation on earth, make a lot of sense. When we're evolved enough to be able to rule the world without danger of corruption, we would be able to deal with localised issues by seperating the world into functional districts that act merely to deal with utility funding, police, etc. Also there would be no wars, as there would be nobody to fight - so long as society was advanced enough to avoid a civil war, and humans were united in their diversity, there would be no cultural clashes igniting fights, and no countries between cultures to incubate the flame.

[Splat]

I meant it as a way of thinking, not an actual physical act of joining all the countries in the world together. That's got about as much chance of happening as the Big Bang (its fact of physics that it's unlikely, nothing to do with my beliefs).

I would say more but I don't have much time and my teacher just walked nto the room, cya

[OANST]

Alright. Topic switch.
Does everyone here shower monthly? Whether you need it or not?

Discuss.

[TomFrogman]

Alright. Topic switch.
Does everyone here shower monthly? Whether you need it or not?

Discuss.

Isn't the idea to let the conversation carry itself off onto natural tangents rather than force a change in topic?

[OANST]

How many posts do you have? How many posts do I have? That's right, noob. Know your place. And get me a lemonade while you're at it.

Just kidding. But, seriously. Get me a lemonade.

[Statikk HDM]

Does anybody else hate it when teachers and co-workers show up to work sick? They act like they're such ****ing troopers, too.
Get your disease-ridden, fluid leaking flesh sack away from me.
Back on "topic":
My grandfather is convinced that the U.N. will try to take over the world under the benign guise of "world betterment" and protection of government.
He's convinced that every member is in some black helicopter cult. Its crazy some of the things ""reich wingers" send him in the mail.

[Dino]

Isn't the idea to let the conversation carry itself off onto natural tangents rather than force a change in topic?

Yes it is. *glares at OANST*

[Leto]

Isn't the idea to let the conversation carry itself off onto natural tangents rather than force a change in topic?

Has it happened? Can it be, that a new person is intelligent? Wowza! I like you already.

My grandfather is convinced that the U.N. will try to take over the world under the benign guise of "world betterment" and protection of government.
He's convinced that every member is in some black helicopter cult. Its crazy some of the things ""reich wingers" send him in the mail.

Ha! Gigglesworthy that is.

I meant it as a way of thinking, not an actual physical act of joining all the countries in the world together.

Major downside: we would all have 'universal laws', so none of us could have legal fun in Hamster-beaverfort.

That's got about as much chance of happening as the Big Bang (its fact of physics that it's unlikely, nothing to do with my beliefs).

But that did happen, so like, woooooaaahh! So let's all take another monster drag.

[Splat]

Yeah but the odds of it were about a trillion to one. There was a chemical reaction that needed to take place and the odds of that were several milion to one and a few thousand of these reactions had to take place at exactly the same time. Go science.

Seriously, mathematically it's more likely for a hurricane to blow through a scrap heap and piece together a perfect working plane than for the big bang to take place. And I'm not aware of that happening so a second big bang is a long way off.

Wow, am I sensing a tangent here? See OANST, you have to be subtle! Subtle as a breath of air!

And once again i must apologise for my truly tactless analogies.