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  #1  
11-07-2005, 06:20 AM
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What is happened in France?

fear, anger and frustration ....
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe...ots/index.html
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  #2  
11-07-2005, 08:57 AM
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Yarr, that's something that has COMPLETELY got out of hand. Them French policemen are way to late with dealing with it the hard way.
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  #3  
11-07-2005, 10:00 AM
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My dad has to go to France this week...
I'm quite worried.

This is chaos over there over 1100 cars burned in one night

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  #4  
11-07-2005, 10:07 AM
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And some schools too. I mean, what sick person would burn a school?
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  #5  
11-07-2005, 01:38 PM
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What the hell is happening there? I just glanced at an article in the paper a few minutes ago showing a picture of a burned-out car chassis accompanied by NO helpful information whatsoever, and that was the first I'd heard of this. All I can gather from both that article and this one is that people are setting fires all over the place. What's going on?

Damn media.
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  #6  
11-07-2005, 02:49 PM
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We went over this in Contemporary Issues class today.

From what I recall and from what I gather from this article, two teenage boys of African descent were electrocuted as they climbed some fence when the police were chasing them. Arabs and Africans blame the police for what happened because apparently there's a lot of race-related issues over there. Protests broke out in areas of poverty and with high populations of Africans and Arabs. Buildings, cars, etc. have been damaged, destroyed and burnt. It's crazy stuff.

I didn't know about the concept of "French unity" until class today. Apparently, in school no one is allowed to wear symbols of religion or anything like that. Muslim girls can't even wear their veils.
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  #7  
11-07-2005, 05:15 PM
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Also Jews can't wear skullcaps. No-one can wear necklaces with religious pendants (crosses, stars of david, crescent).

The idea is to promote uniformity and not let anyone stand out in terms of religion but in practice it means that the more religious students (ie those not prepared to compromise their faith) only go to private religious schools and thus don't have contact with people outside their religion so are more likely to become fundamentalist and disengaged with mainstream society.
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  #8  
11-07-2005, 05:52 PM
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Seems like those two guys who decided to hide inside a transformer should be nominated for a Darwin Award. From what I understand France has lots of religious/racial issues, mostly from second generation muslim immigrants from Africa. Yay for religious extremism, keep up the good fight.
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  #9  
11-08-2005, 01:16 AM
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the rule in france is "no religious distinctions in school" because some may be offenced by those symbols. A weird thing actually

I mean I am in a chistian establissement and I have a huge upside cross on my sweater, no one ever told me anything about that. (on the other hand I live in Belgium )

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  #10  
11-08-2005, 08:37 AM
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Damn French people. Always running around being French. It's disgusting.
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  #11  
11-08-2005, 08:43 AM
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From what I understood, some high ranked guy said a lot of stuff about the French youth which pretty much pissed them off a lot. And ofcourse the religious stuff as well. However, I think the theoretic idea they have over in French, where religion and education are seperated, is actualy a good one. And I can infact understand how certain religious habits can be seen as intimidating on a school.
I'm not a racist, but I have seen my share of religious conflicts. The Netherlands is a prime example of stuff like this. A few years ago, France and Holland were the same concerning that subject. Only France dared to act in on it, the wrong way and now they have riots.
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  #12  
11-08-2005, 10:22 AM
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http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=30903
The police did dangerous and unwarranted actions that led to the death of 2 children and the maiming of another. The police also attacked a mosque with tear gas and made inflammatory and racist remarks. At some parts of the article I was reminded of apartheid and the Jewish ghettos. Very disturbing.
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  #13  
11-08-2005, 01:16 PM
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Those two kids hid in a freaking electricity booth which contained over 10.000 volts... WTF did they expect to happen.
The police won't just go chase you for no reason. They did SOMETHING to piss them off and make them chase them. And if you choose to hide in a electricity booth with 10.000 volts running trough it, thats your own dumb fault!

As for the tear gas and remarks the police made, the police can not, under and circumstance, make racist remarks. The police is a prime example to the rest of the population. These officers should be discharged from the force.

Like I said, the basic idea they are having in France is a good one. But they took a entirely wrong approuch to the problem.
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  #14  
11-08-2005, 05:53 PM
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I disagree. The basic idea was just as bad as the execution.

They are trying to develop peace and tolerance by assimilating any differences between people. This will never work - the only possible result (as we have seen) is resentment.

The only real way to develop tolerance is when everyone is exposed to every other culture. So christians, jews and atheists need to be tolerant of muslims as well as muslims being tolerant of non-muslims.
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  #15  
11-09-2005, 03:38 AM
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And thats usualy where the problem comes in... becouse most religious people look down on other religions. I myself look down on every religion, but thats a diffrent story.

France was very wise and very brave in attempting to not let religion rule their country. They are the very first to try it and it went completely wrong. Which just proves how much religion is part of everyday live, even if you're not religious. Take it away, and everything collapses.
This idea of the French goverment might have worked if they had given it time and wouldn't have said from one day onto the other "Everything religious is now BANNED". Ofcourse that's going to piss people off. Duh.
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  #16  
11-09-2005, 08:59 AM
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So in stopping religion from ruling their country they let Atheism rule it instead. That's just another belief system, no more valid than any other.

America got it right (at least legally, if not in practice) when they enabled complete freedom of religion and seperation of religion and state.
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  #17  
11-09-2005, 09:33 AM
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Legaly, maybe. But America is the center of christian religion. And now that they are planning on forcing christian believe on children in schools, I realy don't see how America has freedom of religion?

Anyway, by stopping religion from ruling their country, you would get a country which does not go to religion to detirmain whats wrong and right. That's whats happening everywhere else in the world. Why do you think so many people are against being gay? Becouse the bible says it's wrong... Same goes for tons of other stuff.
Eliminating religion from the public doesn't mean it's completely illegal to be religious. But just keep it to yourself and don't bother other people with it.
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  #18  
11-09-2005, 10:51 AM
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Don't you think that telling people that they can't bother other people with their religion is a loss of freedom? And where the **** did you come up with America is forcing christian beliefs in schools. Children aren't even allowed to pray in public schools. Is America perfect? Hell no. But it gets a little irritating to read baseless bullshit on a daily basis from people who learn everything they know about us from a media that despises us.
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  #19  
11-09-2005, 12:22 PM
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Children aren't even allowed to pray in public schools.
Um, we are allowed to... People have "prayer at the pole" or something like that at my school. People can go and pray if that's their thing. What's not allowed is a teacher saying, "okay kids, hold hands and let's pray." There's also a Fellow Christian Athlete thing, which I think is sort of pointless. Why is there no Fellow Jewish Athlete club?! The former can't be considered forcing religion upon students as they choose to do it. The latter isn't forcing, but it neglects athletes of other religions.

Was there something in particular you were talking about, Havoc, when you said that it's being forced upon us? Heh.. Maybe the intelligent design "theory"? Or maybe how our sex ed. can't teach us anything about obtaining contraception or anything other than waiting until marriage. Heh, maybe you do have a point. =/

(Sorry to go off-topic, everyone)
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  #20  
11-09-2005, 12:30 PM
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I was referring to the Inteligent Design thing. For anyone who does not know what it's about:

The Bible has many things to teach us about life but it is no substitute for science, Mr Bush, writes Tim Radford

Thursday August 11, 2005
The Guardian

President Bush has let it be known that he thinks "intelligent design" should be taught in schools, along with and as a balance to, the theory of evolution. Evidence of intelligent design would imply an intelligent designer, or God, as we Catholics call him.But this intelligent designer must then have designed not just the sublime patterns and polymer fabric of a spider's web, the musical genius of a Palestrina or the star pattern of the Pleiades, but also halitosis, haemorrhoids and spina bifida. These things were once routinely accepted as the will of God. But once the revolution begun by Darwin had advanced a bit, most Christians found it morally easier and far more comfortable to leave God's will out of it, and ascribe the fine detail of life's glories and discomforts to the accidents of evolution by random mutation and natural selection. That way you didn't have to blame the Almighty directly for ingrowing toenails, a prolapsed anus or infection by Chagas disease. Such things became simply the downside of life's glorious upside.

But there was another reason why, after decades of debate, doubt and dissent, many Christians accepted and incorporated the theory of evolution into their cosmology: it was palpably true. It began to look true while Darwin was alive; it looked even better once Mendelian genetics were rediscovered; and it has looked increasingly convincing with each advance in the understanding of DNA. What is shocking about the intelligent design argument is that it isn't true and can hardly be honest. It looks, from a distance, like a cynical attempt to introduce a literal version of Biblical teaching into the American school curriculum, against the intention of America's own founding fathers and the US constitution. The chiefs of the American Geophysical Union and the American Astronomical Society have both written to Bush arguing that he is mistaken in believing that intelligent design is a scientific theory in the way that evolution, relativity and plate tectonics are scientific theories: because the last three are based on hypotheses that have survived extensive testing and verification, while intelligent design is not. How much more straightforward it would have been if the scientists had just said: "It's not science, it's not true, and it's not honest."

Atheism, like religion, is an act of faith: evidence for the existence of God may be entirely anecdotal, but evidence for His absence is even more tenuous. Christians brought up in the mainstream tradition knew several important things about the anecdotal evidence. One of these was that although the Scriptures were revered as divinely inspired, they were certainly written down, lost, edited, translated and interpreted by fallible humans. Holy Writ contained powerful truth, even though some things in the narrative might not be literally true. "The things that you're liable to read in the Bible: it ain't necessarily so," wrote George Gershwin in Porgy and Bess. But even if some parts of the story were not literally true, the important lessons stuck.

One of these was that there was a difference between the awkwardly right and comfortable wrong; between honesty and falsehood. One of the most telling books in the Christian canon - once found in many households - was John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. It is now famous as an example of literary allegory, but those of us who read it at a very early age thought Giant Despair and Apollyon were real, and that there really might be such places as Doubting Castle, and the Slough of Despond. Other characters are undoubtedly real: Madam Wanton and Lady Feigning, Lord Timeserver and Lord Turn-about, Obstinate and Pliable, Mr Standfast and Mr Valiant-for-Truth.

Right now, Washington looks more like Vanity Fair than the Celestial City. It may be full of people who see themselves as born-again believers and right-on fundamentalists, neo-conservatives and other avatars of moral robustness. They do not, however, look quite like the kind of Christians who might have listened to the sermon on the mount: the one that blessed the meek and the peacemakers. They are free to believe whatever they like: for the first 1,600 years of Christianity all Christians believed that God made the world in seven days, around about 6,000 years ago. That, however, has for the past 400 years been increasingly difficult to square with the evidence in every stone and every streambed.

Even so, some people manage to take the Bible literally, and call it faith. It is quite another thing to believe it, and call it science, which is what George Bush seems to be proposing. Scientists are not the only people who should be shocked.


This is not forcing religion in schools? Everyone should be free to believe what he/she wants and not be taught that inteligent design is a fact. For evolution there is proof. For that nonsence there is not.

And why should not bothering someone with your religion be a loss of freedom? If you must discuss your religion so badly, go to the church and talk to people who you know are interested, instead of trying to convert people who don't give a shit and only get anoyed.

That said from the French goverment point of view. I can get their point (and understand what they tried to do) but they took a wrong turn and wanted to execute that plan way to fast.

I personaly can't realy be so objective, becouse I am totaly 100% anti religion. Doesn't mean I hate everyone who is religion, but IMO religion is one of the most stupidest and most useless things man has ever thought off so I can't realy blame France for trying to 'bannish' it.
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  #21  
11-09-2005, 12:38 PM
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It will be taught as an opposing theory. Oh, and your opinion annoys me. I'm afraid you won't be able to speak it where I might hear, see, or smell it from now on. Thank you.
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  #22  
11-09-2005, 12:41 PM
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Legaly, maybe. But America is the center of christian religion. And now that they are planning on forcing christian believe on children in schools, I realy don't see how America has freedom of religion?

Eliminating religion from the public doesn't mean it's completely illegal to be religious. But just keep it to yourself and don't bother other people with it.
That's why I said "legally, if not in practice".

What I was trying to say in my last post is that what France has done is enforcing atheism on the population, which is just as immoral as enforcing one religion. It would be just as if they forced all women to wear hijabs or all men to wear skullcaps.

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Why is there no Fellow Jewish Athlete club?!
'cos Jews are crap at sports [/Stereotype]
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  #23  
11-09-2005, 03:15 PM
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America is aiming in the general direction, if not the right idea.
It may not be perfect, but then again what country is? [/rhetorical question]
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  #24  
11-09-2005, 05:29 PM
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America is in the general direction, if not the right idea.
It may not be perfect, but then again what country is? [/rhetorical question]
Canada, i am ignoring the rhetorical part.
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  #25  
11-09-2005, 11:05 PM
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Certainly better than Oz, leadership-wise. I used to say New Zealand until the whole Israeli-passports affair got blown out of proportion.
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  #26  
11-09-2005, 11:28 PM
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I reckon Johnny is a pretty good P.M. We've had a sustainable economic growth rate, inflation is low, government debt is reduced. Productivity has increased although its plateauing (spelling)
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  #27  
11-10-2005, 12:20 AM
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Yarr, that's something that has COMPLETELY got out of hand. Them French policemen are way to late with dealing with it the hard way.
Talk like a pirate day was 2 months ago.

And I agree with Joshy (for once), Canada is a whole shitload better than America, and by comparison is the perfect country. (even though it technically still has some problems)
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  #28  
11-10-2005, 02:58 AM
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I agree, whats great aboot Canada is that they sort of watch from the sidelines. From this separation from the intense wars (they have given a great amount of support in past wars however) they have had the time to find ways to keep the drug activity under control and polish those cities spotless. And they have a great health system
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  #29  
11-10-2005, 07:16 AM
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Yeah. But who wants to be Canadian?
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  #30  
11-10-2005, 12:12 PM
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I reckon Johnny is a pretty good P.M. We've had a sustainable economic growth rate, inflation is low, government debt is reduced. Productivity has increased although its plateauing (spelling)
I'll admit that he's been great for the economy. But there's more to being a leader than financial sense.

The fact is that there have been plenty of moments in the last 9 years (or however long it's been) that I've felt ashamed to be Australian.
Some examples from a non-exhaustive list:
- His refusal to denounce Pauline Hanson when she was at her peak. Also the fact that he gave preferences to One Nation.
- His rude treatment of Aborigines.
- Whilst I agree with mandatory detentioning in principle, I'm shocked by the substandard living conditions within the detention centers. He's also made it much harder to prove that someone's a legitimate refugee.
- The 'Pacific Solution' to the Tampa crisis which cost 10 times as much as if he'd just let them into Australia.
- Australia's participation in the war in Iraq. Especially as he claimed he would never go to war without the UN Security Counsel approval.
- The fact that he has lied to the Australian people so often that it no longer shocks us when he breaks a promise (medicare anyone?) and Australians don't even think they deserve better from their leaders any more.


Sorry for the tangent.
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