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Originally posted by Max the Mug
Very nice, Sydney. A good topic for discussion. However, I couldn't help thinking this might offend people's philosophy on meat-eating, which is just as bad as offending a person's religion. By all means, make us question our ways of life, but [that] just sounds a bit...well, derogatory.
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I'll be the first to admit that my post was unreasonably harsh, but my intention was to alleviate the state of quiet boredom observed on the forums recently (although I believe every word I typed). I'm aware that people don't like to be told that they are wrong, especially when it comes to others questioning the moral soundness of where they derive pleasure. You're quite right that my post may offend the meat-eating philosophies of our members, but your veiled reference to my comment on religion in the Elvis and Jesus topic was unnecesary. I am offended by the consumption of meat by humans, as I am offended by rape and murder.
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Originally posted by Max the Mug
Please don't misunderstand, although I've probably made it very easy for you to do so - I am seriously considering going vegetarian, as you may already know. I haven't yet decided that eating meat is wrong. My morals don't have much of a say on the subject, except I don't eat lizards, amphibeons or invertibrates.
I agree that it's possible to leave an equally healthy existance without the consumption of meat. I know for a fact that a human can live on fruit alone. But then you haven't made a similar subject about junk food, which is definitely a worse consumable.
I also agree that the current meat/animal slaughter industry is disgraceful. However, that alone isn't really sufficient reason to go vegetarian. If the killing of livestock was done humanely, I think not so many people would jump from a full diet to a vegetarian one. The cruelty of some people/businesses is no reason to consider eating animals ethically wrong.
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Congratulations on questioning your omnivorous lifestyle. I try to avoid using words like morals (even though I already have once in my response), as they're too dependant on who you ask. To one person the eating of live babies may be morally acceptable, while to another it may be despicable.
I'm glad you agree that meat is not essential for survival, and that health is a major benefactor in a vegetarian diet. But, as my original post indicated, better health is incidental and should not be the primary reason for becoming a vegetarian. My argument is that selfishness (or ignorance) is why people eat meat. Overcoming this selfishness is beneficial to all concerned.
Yes, the meat industry is disgraceful. How do you define "humane killing"? Is it humane to kill your enemies on the condition that it is quick and painless? While I touched the topic of slaughter conditions, it was never a main part of my argument, but I must still disagree with you - the more barbaric the treatment of the animals, the greater the incentive to become vegetarian. However, killing is killing regardless of whether it is done painlessly or painfully.
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Originally posted by Max the Mug
I wouldn't take it out on them so. After all, humans have been omnivores for thousands of years, and biologically we still are. Nutritional facts aside, why should Mr Random, here, be forced to stop eating meat? Other omnivores and carnivores aren't considered to be immoral in their meat-eating, humans shouldn't be either.
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Are you denying that selfishness is the cause of meat consumption? Murder, rape and torture have all been a part of human behaviour for thousands of years, duration isn't justification for this behaviour. I never said Mr Random should be forced to stop eating meat. I merely pointed out that meat consumption serves no essential role in the human diet, deducing that selfishness is the motivation for meat consumption. Lives are needlessly sacrificed to satisfy a needless hunger.
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Originally posted by Max the Mug
If you're going to suggest these creatures don't have a conscience to speak of, that doesn't really address the problem, because it's not these species that have the problem, it's us
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Other meat-eating organisms have excuses; obviously, they don't possess the capacity to understand the issue, or they're unable to properly digest plants. Yes, that does address the problem. We know that other animals are capable of a broad range of feelings. Have you ever seen a cat whose body has been mashed into the road while it remains fully conscious? Meowing in pain and confusion, its eyes locked with those of your own, asking for comfort. Anyone who owns a pet should be able to understand that the creature has thoughts, interests and emotions. On top of this, they have a limited grasp of empathy (although I'm sure they have more empathy than
some meat-eating humans I've encountered). Like I said, part of the problem is ignorance. Many people simply don't understand the extent of being that animals occupy, seeing them as merely raw material to be exploited as they see fit.
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Originally posted by Max the Mug
No, I couldn't do that. Doesn't sersuade me to give up eating meat, though. Know why? Because I may eat meat, but I'm not a killer. I don't harm any living thing if I can help it. I find doing so ethically wrong. If other people don't find it ethically wrong, then that's fine by me. I shouldn't have to interfere with their morals, because I'm not ever going to share their soul. Nicking things from school doesn't put a scar on my karma because I don't think it's wrong. Equally, a great wadge of the population aren't spiritually affected by meat-eating because their morals don't consider it to be wrong. And isn't changing somebody's morals to match your own regarded as being 'wrong'?
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I am not changing other people's morals to suit my own, I'm pointing out that consuming meat is selfish. Is it also wrong of me to persuade a person who eats babies to stop, even though it is in accordance with his morals to eat babies? See, the morality argument doesn't work. Chaos would ensue if everyone were free to act on what they believe is morally sound. As I've said countless times, I'm not fiddling with anyone's morals, just pointing out the realities of their decisions.