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You need to read the article again – the 2011 situation was not a ban. The updates at the end of the article set this out flatly. It was also a situation caused by necessity, as the administration at the time had to respond to an identified issue. In contrast, Trump’s ban has been put in place without good reason, was ordered without going through appropriate planning, and has caused chaos as a result. |
>not a ban
>literally forced the refugee process to halt
If it wasn’t a ban, then the Obama Administration wouldn’t have had the State Department stop processing Iraqi refugees, yes?
I could say that Trump isn’t really banning people from the 7 Middle Eastern countries, he’s just told CBP to stop processing people with nationalities pertaining to those countries.
Either way, the setup to both is the same. The ban (temporary halt, if you will) in 2011 was due to a bomb threat, while the temporary halt (ban, if you will) this past weekend was sparked by events such as the Orlando shooting and Ohio State car-knife attack.
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It may have been a campaign promise, but I’m not arguing about that – I’m arguing whether it is a good policy, and it clearly is not.
And it was far from his only option – there was absolutely no reason to make this order so soon, and he wanted to wait for when he was in a more secure position he could have done.
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Trump's a man of action, not the kind of person who is willing to wait while his cabinet gets filled out. Besides, voters expect results, and, again, Trump is a man of action, i.e. results.
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Even the argument that this is about combating terrorism is plainly false – between 1975 and 2016 zero Americans were killed on US soil by a foreign national from any the countries identified on Trump’s list; and the probability of being killed by an immigrant in a terrorist attack is an astronomically low 1 in 3.6 million. Only 3 refugees have been arrested in the past 15 years for terrorist activities; only 0.00062% of refugees admitted into the country since 1975 ever attempted a terrorist act – and only 3 out of the 20 attempts were successful. |
I don’t think the refugee crisis was in 1975, do you? The Gulf War wasn’t even until the 1980’s. The Middle East was a lot more stable back then.
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The proposed tariff will not be paid for by Mexico, it would be paid for by Americans through increased prices to compensate for the tariff. Add to it that the US buys in more import from Mexico than vice versa – $316.4 billion versus $267.2 billion. This deal would hurt America more than Mexico; that is not ‘holding all the cards’. And tracking down money sent to Mexico by immigrants would be exceedingly difficult to manage; let’s not even get into the implications of holding hostage the money immigrant workers’ families depend on for support.
Meanwhile, Trump’s aggression is souring relations with the Mexican government, and the current wisdom is that the upcoming Mexican elections will see candidates vying to be as anti-Trump as possible to gain votes. President Nieto is already playing hardball, and it’s only going to get worse. |
You seem to misinterpret the point of a tariff.
Tariffs make it more expensive for foreign bodies to sell goods in our markets. If they want to stay profitable, then they are forced to raise their prices, giving less expensive local goods a competitive edge. Consumers, obviously, will buy the local goods.
This means the foreign bodies lose money.
Trump hasn’t even implemented his tariff on China yet. The tariff he set on Mexico (in retaliation for President Nieto refusing to negotiate the wall) is at 20%. This kind of looks like a practice round.
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You are confusing immigration and outsourcing into a single issue, but these are separate issues. Yes, manufacturing abroad is cheaper, and many businesses exploit the lower wages in countries such as China. But this is not something that can be blamed on immigrants or refugees within the country (many of whom immigrate for better wages), and it will not be solved by banning immigration or turning away refugees.
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How was I saying they were the same issue, when I explicitly stated that it’s not just illegal immigration and refugees that are the problem?
That article makes it sound like only illegal immigrants raise wages. We can reap the rewards of letting in people legally, while enforcing our immigration laws to keep out people who don’t care to follow the rules. Heck, Trump wants to streamline the immigration process.
Nah, I was thinking more along the lines of cases like the Carrier jobs staying (even after Obama said that wouldn’t happen). But the Ford CEO very much agrees with Trump’s policies, like the tariff.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/fo...rticle/2607739
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0d9a5945c8b7b
Then again, what does he know? He’s only the CEO of one of the world’s largest automanufacturing companies.
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In Hungary’s case, the fact is that refugees can take other routes around this border – so building the wall has simply redirected those people, not blocked them; they will seek the past of lesser resistance. For Trump and Mexico, the scenario is different – the size of the border is much larger, and there are no other routes around, so people would be more determined to find a way in.
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“No other routes?” Slog Bait, you LIED to me!
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But I am not concerned about the effectiveness of a hypothetical wall – of course putting a wall up will stop people. What worries me is the implication behind these walls; the ideology they represent. Let alone the prohibitive financial cost of such a wall would be quite possibly the largest waste of federal money on a vanity project the US has ever seen.
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Estimated wall cost: Around 25$ billion
>be Obama
>propose $70 billion budget to carry out regulations
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susandud.../#cc4e1b1c7e4b
vs.
>be Trump
>for every new regulation, 2 regulations will be diced
>want to build $25 billion wall
>25 isn’t even half of 70
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Hungary’s wall represents one part of the rising anti-refugee sentiment in Europe. Let’s recap: refugees are people fleeing war, seeking asylum, fleeing from terror. They risk life and limb abandoning their homes to travel across the world to find safety; but now instead they are finding themselves blocked, turned away, or penned in to despicable holding camps. The European Union is failing to support people desperately in need of help – is that the example the US wants to follow?
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Is it really Hungary's problem how the refugees feel, since they're the very refugees that Hungary wants to keep out? Maybe the people of Hungary know something we don't? Isn't that grounds for negotiation?
That goes for other countries. Bringing in people from war-torn countries with a very different perception of human rights… What could go wrong?
I don’t know what European Union you’re talking about, but they seem to have the right idea. Japan saw trouble a mile (well, many miles) away, and only took in a few refugees. Guess what two of them (Turkish) wound up doing?
Evidently, the statistics you brought up didn’t work for Japan. Maybe they haven't worked out for America, either? Maybe that's why Trump won the election?
The barrier worked, didn't it? That's what we're talking about here.
Also... "Trump's Racist Wall"
"Mexican" is not a race. While we're at it, neither is "Muslim."
Polls have shown themselves to be… Unreliable at best.
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Mrs Clinton was given a 90 percent chance of defeating Mr Trump, according to the final Reuters/Ipsos States of the Nation stats released last night. If all recent polls are correct, she will become the first female president of the country tonight - the early hours of tomorrow morning UK time.
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A left-leaning government would not build a wall. Sybil’s point is that the walls you cited are by-products of dangerous xenophobia – conservative anti-refugee Hungary and oppressive Israeli occupation. These are not examples that the supposed “land of the free” should follow; not if it wishes to be seen as a nation fit to lead the world on humanitarian issues.
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So, beyond ideological dilemmas, walls work just fine?
Also… The United States has never been a saintly country. We were among the last of the world’s countries to abandon slavery, and even that took a long and brutal war to actually accomplish. We’ve been treating the Middle East like a chew toy for the past few decades.
Do you know why? Because we act in our own interests. If you look at my Sweden example above, that’s what happens when a country values foreigners over its own people. That’s what happens when a government fails to prioritize the well-being of its own people.
We don’t want to have our government make that mistake. That’s why we elected Trump.
Personally, I think these allegations are overblown, and this is all a waste of time. Obviously, the OGE thinks differently, and that’s their prerogative. Which is good, because we need people who will scrutinize our politicians. But I don’t agree with what they’re treating like a smoking gun.
Besides, you do realize what happens next if the OGE actually gets Trump indicted, right?
>be Office of Government Ethics
>sue Trump
>win
>Trump is somehow impeached by republican-dominated Congress
>be President Mike Pence
>”amperes for queers” Pence
>”turning fruits into vegetables” Pence
>conservative evangelical Christian
>no conflict of interests... with God
>federalize conversion therapy
>nuke Middle East
>deusvult.jpg
Do you know who popularized “fake news” in the first place? The mainstream media, which can’t handle American citizens deciding for themselves who they will and will not trust as sources of information. The same mainstream media that lied to the American people, that Trump would never run for president, that Trump would never win the Republican nomination, that Trump would never win the election. Yet they have the audacity to call their more honest competition “fake news.”
Needless to say, Trump trolling the mainstream media like this was beautiful to witness.
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The hypocrisy comes from his businesses outsourcing abroad, with him then turning around and proclaiming that businesses outsourcing abroad are a problem, without doing anything to change his own business practices. Has he stopped his businesses from outsourcing? Has he implemented any actual policy about this yet? It is far from the only hypocritical thing he has done.
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Is there reason for concern? Yes. But, personally, I could care less.
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Let's not forget the fact that the countries he conveniently omitted from the ban are countries that have had links to terrorist activities that have occurred on US soil in the same timeframe (our most famous example, 9/11, was enacted by terrorists from Saudi Arabia and Egypt), but these same countries have Trump businesses set up within them.
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You’re right, we need to add them to the pre-made list made by Obama that Congress already approved.
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And as a reminder, to anyone who thinks the wall would be at all effective, consider the fact that the US-Mexico border is surrounded by water on both sides. If someone's going to cross the border, a wall isn't going to stop them. People can dig. They can swim, boat, and fly in. In a crude reference, they can also climb. There is a reason there's so many jokes about Mexicans hopping fences really well.
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>be poor Mexican
>want to go to America
>don’t care about legal immigration
>want to climb over pesky wall
>go to ladder store
>45 ft long ladder costs over 9,000 pesos
>sell kidney for ladder
>haul 100 pound 45 foot long ladder dozens of miles through Mexican desert with other supplies
>reach wall
>can’t find level ground to set ladder
>try anyway
>half way up I fall off
>break leg
>too poor to afford medical care
>ice agent with 45 foot long pole pokes ladder off wall
>ladder drops onto my face
Not to mention we have Coast Guard patrolling the, well, coasts.
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This is after the wall's built. The wall, that will take approximately 10 years to build, and by the time it's done it will likely be more useless than it already is, since Mexican immigration is no longer an issue and hasn't been for at least a decade now, way after we had the mass illegal immigration and dealt with it. The wall is a massive waste of money and resources that could be going towards infrastructure, the exact thing Trump said he wanted to focus on time and time again when appealing to rural voters.
As an addendum to how stupid the wall is, I'm an American born citizen that's always lived ~4 hours or less from the US-Mexico border and grew up in an area effected heavily by the mass illegal immigration a while back. The wall is very wasteful and very stupid. The proper measures for dealing with the undocumented immigrants have already been made. The wall is a total waste
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If illegal immigration from Mexico is no longer an issue, then why do illegals who get deported multiple times keep finding their way back?
http://hotair.com/archives/2016/07/0...ultiple-times/
And why would the wall be a waste if Mexico itself had to build a barrier of its own at the Guatemalan border?
And what’s this about so many people from Haiti and Africa going to Mexico? Why would they want to go there?
[img]
http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/25/in...tarian-crisis/[/img]
The fact of the matter is, illegals we deport aren’t staying out, and even Mexico is having to deal with illegal immigrants whom, for all we know, want to join the USA border hopping extravaganza.
Even if Mexico isn’t the source of illegals any more, it is undeniable that a wall will be an effective barrier in the long term.
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Also a very firm reminder, that once elected president, your duty is to The People. You officially serve The People. Everything you've built up off to the side is officially not of your concern, and you are not in that position for yourself. You are no longer an individual, you are the public figurehead for an entire country. The only people who would try to say otherwise are dictators and people who stand to profit by being in that position (not mutually exclusive), which is why you're supposed to immediately drop all conflicts of interest upon entering the White House, since the US loves to cling to the label of democracy and "freedom with liberty and justice for all".
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We’re a republic. Our votes represent our will. When a candidate wins, that means we approved of what they’re going to do, and any amount of us changing our minds will only matter come the next election cycle.
Besides, if a president was REALLY obligated to act on the people’s will, then we get a thing called “tyranny of the majority,” which our founding fathers specifically set up the Electoral College to counter.
If Slog Bait is correct in that illegal immigration from Mexico is no longer a problem, then why is this 40%, from flights of all things, so big? Trump is right; if people are slipping through the cracks like this, we're obviously not paying close enough attention.
Then they'll be limited to land and water travel, and we'll have the wall and Coast Guard.