Okay, PV. I have been very careful to use the word 'human' with caution because I can understand your objection to it. Please have the courtesy of not using it as a weapon.
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So you have to have a full brain to be human? Guess that excludes certain people with disorders. What is the movement caused by?
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Perfect example; I did not use the word 'human' here. I talked about conscious thought and, by inference, whether a fetus is a 'person'. In any case, yes. If a person was brain damaged to the point that they were no longer conscious of capable of thought, I would not consider them a person and would have no problem with them being euthanased.
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"Fetuses may be genetically human but they are not biologically human. A human does not have a tail. A human breathes through his or her lungs. I could go on."
They are alive (I cannot find any sort of definition for "pre-life", and they aren't dead) and developing into birthed humans. Killing them would be as much killing as shooting a baby while he/she is being birthed.
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I was
quite clear that I made up the term 'pre-life' to describe something that doesn't have a word in English. Perhaps, seeing as you object to it, you can tell us how you define 'life'. Because I don't see a bunch of cells residing in a mother and dependant on her for everything as 'life'.
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A.They are genetically 100% human, share the basic shape of humans, are the product of two humans having sex, share the same organs and chemical makeup (genetics) as humans, and are made of human bits!
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Well... yes and no. Certainly I do not agree with abortion in the latter stages of pregnancy. However, in the early stages fetuses do not share anything with fully developed humans other than genes and chemical makeup.
Sorry, what? What on earth has that got to do with fetus emotions and consciousness?
Now that's just plain silly; I was using 'people' as the plural of 'person', which is a very philosophical subject. I suppose the best meaning of what I meant regarding personhood comes from
wikipedia:
The criteria a person must have in being a person are one or more of the following:
1. Consciousness,
2. The ability to steer one's attention and action purposively,
3. Self-awareness, self-bonded to objectivities (existing independently of the subject's perception of it),
4. Self as longitudinal thematic identity, one's biographic identity.
None of which a fetus possesses.
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Pre life does not exist as a recognised state. Fetuses are alive, as they respond to stimuli and are not dead. Therefore they are alive. Fetuses are biologically human. Therefore, they are biologically alive humans.
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Once they respond to stimuli, that negates my point regarding motion and self control and I would consider it too late for an abortion. However, that occurs some time into a pregnancy.
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"If you manage to do that without any "process of elimination" handwaving, I will be convinced and will never debate this with you again."
Explain to me why the "handwaving" is wrong.
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"Handwaving" is wrong because it's playing around with definitions and semantics rather than actually confronting the issues at play.
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Nate, the idea of a debate is not to satisfy the other party.
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Surely you would think that the idea of a debate is to convince the other person of your opinion? How can you do that if you demean their intelligence and deride their viewpoints?
Even if you're comfortable with that, it makes no sense to debate with someone in terms that they don't understand or respond to. It would be like you trying to debate with PV in dutch.