Suicide
 

This random news story on the T.V tonight has put me somewhat into a pissed off state. Some chick wrote a book about suicide over here and it's supposed to help society better understand suicide because "it seems there is still some degree of taboo on the subject". Well no SHIT! Talking about someone killing themselfs is not really a dinner table conversation, now is it!

"How was your day Jerremy?"

"Oh splendid! We had math and Alex was being a douch and hung himself from the flagpole. So pretty boring really."

"More vegies?"

Come on, what is there to get about suicide? What possible mindset must one have to just decide one day to not want to live out the rest of one's life? That's a big damn step, what is there to understand about it? Fear? Depression? Shame?
Every person stupid enough to take his own life has his own unique reason for doing so, you can't write a book about it and say: Here is how to understand it; people kill themselves for this this this this and this reason. Not that easy. For that matter would anyone ever want to remove the taboo on suicide?

Do you have any experience with suicide? Attempted, know someone who attempted/succeeded and what is your general opinion about committing suicide?

Discuss!

Question: Do you know the statistics of which subgroup of society is most likely to commit suicide?
Question: Have you got any idea why?
Question: If you did know, would you think it a good thing if programs were in place to say to these people, that suicide is not the answer?


You're right in one respect: Suicide is a very stupid and pointless thing to do. But the people who are doing it obviously don't realise that. Research like this can help to get that point out to them.

Eliminating the taboo about a subject does not make people blasé to that subject, in fact it makes the subject more approachable and lets people become more involved with it, which is exactly what needs to be done. So long as suicide is occurring, society should be seeking to address its causes, because people that could contribute so much are dying for no good reason. What kind of fear, depression or shame do you think justifies the loss of a life?

I assume you haven't read the book and are judging what it has to say without even knowing what it has to say. To be honest, I don’t know what to conclude. You clearly don’t care about the lives that are being lost, but what possesses you to be disgusted that other people do care?

Yes, suicidal people are stupid, Havoc. That's why they kill themselves. Because they're stupid. You fucking ass. Major depressive disorder is like a drill in your brain that doesn't stop turning. People go insane, get stuck in spirals that keep going down and down and down, and sometimes, in that insomniac, hopeless, malnourished, self-loathing, wretched state of life, nothing seems better than just putting it to and end.

Maybe you should read the book and find out.

Writing a book trying to explain why people kill themselves is about awareness, man. Nobody wants to talk about AIDS either, but it's fucking important. If you think knowing less about it is worth not having to discuss such awful things, then you're a fucked-up human.

My ex-girlfriend tried to kill herself several times when we broke up by slashing her wrists with a scissors, thank god it didn't work. Pardon me if I'm touchy about the subject.

Tell you what, you lift the taboo on talking about suicide, I'll lift the one on fucking your niece.

I've had friends who've attempted suicide, been in and out of mental hospitals, and had a hard time with others not seeming to understand them...... yet on the same note trying to 'fix' them.

The problem is in what society is essentially sweeping under the rug in denial in regard to understanding so many problems that our young people are having trouble in coping with today.

We're not going to be able to really help anyone, young or old, until we start looking at the root causes that exist today that are pushing record numbers of youth into depression and suicide. It's sheer madness to be prescribing medication to a person who is "professionally diagnosed" with some kind of disease or having some kind of medical problem... when the reality is there's nothing wrong with them at all that can't be fixed by addressing the root causes for the 'ailment.' The problem exists in society by its unwillingness to address these problems at the root.... which are also the problems, namely stress, which manifest themselves into the form of physical ailments and diseases.

We choose to medicate and misdiagnose because we're unwilling to face the problem our society has created and has also chosen not to deal with.

Blame society? Okay, but just remember: society is only the sum of its individuals... should people choose to be individuals and not sheep. We are the only ones who can fix these issues we've created.... but we never will by taking the path of denial. And interestingly enough, any professional psychologist will say the same thing.

So many problems can be solved immediately if we just listen to one another rather than deciding we already know ahead of time that we 'know better.' So when we listen these people who have been pushed to the brink, we start to understand where they're coming from and 'why' they feel the way they do and why they may have felt the need to 'end it all....'

I really care a lot for people and I don't see our current infrastructure set up in a way that caters to an individuals mental or physical health at all; instead it puts the individual into a position to be a cog in the great money machine, which takes its toll, with many, in the form of stress and physical ailments, which then get 'cared for' by attempting to cover up the symptoms and badging those whose minds snap as 'insane' and those who have attempted to kill themselves as 'criminals' who are also mentally unfit. In a position like this, can you blame a person? What hell must they be going through to decide to want to kill themselves.... it reminds me of the folks who chose to jump from the world trade towers as they were burning. To them, it seemed the only escape. They'd rather jump and plummet than be burned alive. Can anyone here put themselves in those shoes?

Rash impersonality and widespread 'systematic' procedure in everything we do in an attempt to stay alive is stressful. Stress is the root of many of today's ills.

Facing this would mean recognizing that our infrastructure needs to change.... and this would seem to have dire consequences carried with it to so many people-- both those in cushy positions and those in workaday positions who, even though they feel and act part of the system due to feeling that they have no other choice, are afraid of the unknown that such massive change would bring. These are also the people who feel that they are 'caught in the middle' and can do nothing to change things. Stress? Suicide. This is the reality. The same goes for any number of issues an individual is experiencing in their life in which they feel 'alone' and bereft at having to deal with 'alone.'

And so the issues are ignored until a time at which it will all backfire in everyone's faces.

-----------

I don't want to sound like a doom and gloomer but looking at our problems with common sense says that there are some major changes that need to take place if we're to start really taking care of ourselves.... caring for each other as real human beings with real problems and real feelings instead of looking at one another with apathy and denial.

Max, Kimon: No I havn't read the book but the problem I was having with the book and the person who wrote it is that she brought it up like it was meant for society to accept suicide. I may have mis-understood that part or I might not have, I dunno, but it pissed me off at the time.
Also they showed the book on the news, it's like the thinnest piece of crap I've ever seen, which prolly means there's not much info in that thing. It makes me think she wrote it just because it's a controversial subject and would make the news with it, but I could be wrong of course.

And no I generally don't have much respect for people who end their own life because something at some point isn't going the way they want it to go. I'm not talking about depressed people, it's sane people jumping off bridges I don't get. Like some dude who just lost 500 million in the stock market and decides to hug a moving train. Seriously if losing money is a reason to kill yourself then no-one should be standing in your way IMO.

Kimon: I'm sorry you experienced something like that up close, but that situation does in a way prove the point I'm making above. Next to the fact that it could just have been a cry for attention (of course I dunno the details of the incident) I think it's just STUPID to try and kill yourself over a single moment in your life. Sure it sucks to break up with someone but killing yourself over it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Society does need to accept it. Not accept it, suck it up, and ignore it. Accept that it is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

Yes, suicide is a stupid thing to do. It’s a great waste, and it makes no sense. But it’s still happening, and not just to people with recognizable long-term mental health issues. It happens to people who appear to be perfectly sensible, even happy. That’s bad, by the way. It means anyone you know or care about could find themselves in that frame of mind, and they’re not necessarily going to give you ample opportunity to stop them.

Do you really not want suicidal people to not commit suicide?

Yes, ignoring the problem is the issue.... "acceptance" means dealing with it, and dealing with the problem with some compassion and empathy does not mean advocating it.

But to call someone stupid when they are really hurting reaks of cold and compassionless 'clinical' examination from the standpoint of never having been there. Suicide is not a reasonable way to put an end to your problems, but a person is not stupid for having those feelings.

We need to hear from someone who has felt the n eed or tried to commit suicide before. In retrospect, it's easy to say "It was stupid of me to feel that way" but we need to hear about the feelings in the moment and leading up to that moment to understand better.

I'm just going to keep from this one. Mainly because everything I would have said has been said already. Also, I'm trying to keep my arguments to a minimum and I think I met my quota for the day in the halloween thread.

Suicide IS actually regular conversation for my family.

When we're eating Death By Potatoes, that is!

DOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO

Of course it's a cry for attention, and of course it doesn't make sense to kill yourself over one moment in your life, but try to tell that to someone who's crying so hard that they're drying heaving and seizing on the floor.

I would have really appreciated that book last spring, as a matter of fact.

But enough of the mopey. I understand the point you're making; it's sensible. It was just tactlessly worded.

It's not a novel; it's a psychological paper/report. It doesn't need to be long

You don't think that losing 500 million would be a rather depressing thing?

Depends if you live in a country with hyperinflation.

Alcar...

I guess it comes down to how much a person can handle. If I lost all my money, all my stuff tommorow yea I'd be throwing a huge fit and I'd by fucked up but I would never just sit down and give up, but that is mostly just my own mentality. But there are people who will throw a fit for a lot less so I guess it's personal thing. And like Kimon has said, I have a way of being tactless, but we should all know by now that's just another one of my trades :).

What did you get in return?

Shit from me!

You say that as if it makes you a better/stronger person.
people are different and don't necessarily see the things the same way you do.


I don't see how that would make them stupid. Also, honestly I wouldn't be one to tell people what to do with their life or not. I would try to stop someone from committing suicide the best I can. But it's ultimately their own choice.

A second thing is.. Why DO people have to continue if they don't want to? Sure it doesn't make sense.. none at all. not to me anyway. But the same way it doesn't make sense to us, staying alive doesn't make sense to them. That doesn't make them stupid or weak... just makes them different.. a whole lot different and probably mentally ill too, some of them.

I think that girls book's intentions were to accept the reasons why people commit suicide. not COMMITTING suicide. If we accept the reasons, we can better understand these peple, and better help them.

I haven't read the thread mostly, so I'll contribute in a non constructive manner:

My opinion from a legal standpoint is that people should be entitled to end their lives whenever they wish, provided it's shown that they've put a lot of thought into the choice, and that they should have the right to end their life in a dignified fashion that doesn't endanger other lives.

I've always thought it was hilarious that suicide is illegal.
now let's wait for someone to prove me wrong like an elitist intellectual snob

If by illegal you mean 'God said you won't get to heaven' then sure. Other then that, what are they going to do to you? Put you in jail? :D

Assisting in suicide is illegal. There's a difference because at the end of the day it equals murder in the courtroom.

T-nex: It makes them different? Seriously? There is being different and there is being stupid. Kids cutting their wrists barely deep enough to hurt, that's trying to be different. Jumping of a bridge, hitting the water, breaking all your bones, recovering and then telling yourself 'well shit that was a really stupid idea' is being stupid (and insightful).

I'm all for having your life in your own hands. However some people have proven themselves over and over again to be such incompetent idiots that they even screw up a simple thing like suicide because they do it for entirely the wrong reasons without even thinking about it for a minute. You simply don't kill yourself if your cat just died. I know there's someone who did it because I remember reading it at some point. Sure I know everyone has their own motivations and blabla, but on the grander scale of things that's just retarded.

Stupid? I could say the same thing about wanting to bone a tiger, seriously Havoc, who are you with your arrogance, self-righteousness and COMPLETE LACK OF EXPERTISE that you can just judge others by your own example and find them lacking?

My family has gone through some very tough times over the last six years or so, I've never considered killing myself but my older brother has, does this make him a weaker person than me? No. A stupider one? No. My best friend tried to kill himself this time last year over a girl, is he a weak or stupid person? Or maybe my, reclusive and introverted. brother only self harmed to try and be trendy among me, my mum and his video games, hmm?

I find your arrogance and condescending nature on this subject completely abhorrent, I'm not going to ask if you've had a hard life yourself because I seriously don't give a damn if you were mining coal in an orphanage in Zimbabwe at the age of six and came out of it with the mental stability of an army commander, different situations affect people differently and judging everyone by your own example is stupid, it breaks most of the laws of finding objective data.

The person who tried to kill themselves when their cat died, what if they had agrophobia and the cat was their only companion, or if it was a dog, how about if the guy was blind? It must be devastating losing your guide dog if you're blind, that's your companion, your eyes, your third arm and your best friend gone in one fell swoop, I seriously don't know if I could connect so well with something else after something as devastating as that happened.

The guy who lost £500 million on the stock market? Well you can't realistically lose that much without going bankrupt, maybe your wife or girlfriend leaving you, being forced out of your house etc etc.

I appreciate the point you're trying to make, but please stop being such an arrogant opinionated jerk about it and learn some respect for some other lesser mortals.

Going along the same vein as Hobo, having not read the thread due to the sillyness and what not, my opinion is as follows.

I believe in euthanasia for the terminally ill, where prolonged suffering is apparent.

Other than that, I think it's a completely insensitive and arrogant thing to do. With institutions popping up everywhere these days to deal with suicide and depression, as well as the swaths of information already available - I can not understand why a person would continue such a destructive downwards spiral. The notion that 'no one understands my suffering' is utter bullshit - there are plenty of people who have, and are in your situation.

If a person chooses to ignore available help, and uses suicide as an 'out', I'm afraid I have no sympathy for them.

Alcar...

I won't pretend to always be objective. Obviously a certain level of bias is involved in matters like this and that varies from person to person. Because I consider myself pretty damn strong mentally I may reflect that on issues like this. I tend to call stuff like this weakness, because that's what it is. And I'm not saying that because someone is 'weak' (for lack of a better term) he's stupid or vice versa, but the ability to handle certain situations in life is a direct reflection of someone's mental weakness or strength.
For example a weaker person may get suicidal thoughts over losing a 2 year relationship while a stronger person will just deal with it and move on, as hard as it may be.

And now that I think about it and go to reason with myself I have probably been using the term 'stupid' a bit to loosely in this topic then I should be, so my apologies for that.

Accepted :).

And I believe the mental strength you are referring to is a psychological trait called 'Hardiness' which is defined by its presence as opposed to its absence (Meaning you can never have negative hardiness, some people are more hardy than others but that doesn't mean the others are weaker).

Also consider this, what, through subjective context, is the distinction between calling some people 'Mentally strong' and others 'Mentally weak' than calling some people 'Mentally blunt' and others 'Mentally acute'? In other words what is to say that these people feel pain more intensely than you when they break up? And it's not your strength so much as your lack of emotional response to the situation that makes you not give in?

About a year ago I was considering suicide. It was nearing the end of my senior year at High School and well I was going to fail. It wasn't really the fact that I was going to fail that made me want to kill myself, but just a lot of things that all came together that caused me a huge deal of stress.
*My family was falling apart.
*My mother continually threatened to kick one of my sisters out of the house, and my step father had kicked me out of the house twice.
*My parents were struggling with their relationship and started going to relationship counseling.
*The girl of my dreams that I had been dating for over a year cheated on me and we broke up.
*The thought that the chance of me ever obtaining my dream job was extremely remote.
*I had always been a shy kid and never really had any friends. The friends I had finally earned were beginning to turn their backs on me.
*Trying to get over my ex I tried to get with another girl I used to have a crush on and she shot me down.

As stupid as it was all of these things began to make me feel incredibly depressed and worthless. I would think about how everyone dies in the end so what was the point of living anyways? In my time of desperation I reached out to the only person available at the time my step father and he was able to make me come back to rationale thought. I just decided not to care about anything that stressed me out anymore. And to do what ever I wanted just cus. I skipped all of my classes every day for the last weeks of school and just devoted all of my time to distracting myself from everything. Somehow magically I managed to graduate and the girl who shot me down is now my boyfriend/girlfriend. I live away from my family now, and I do feel bad about it sometimes cus I was sort of the mediator of the family, but I live an almost stress free life now.

Edit: Now that I think back to it I think how much I thought about death had a huge impact on everything. I had recently completed an essay on my life philosophy and it had got me thinking about religion and life after death. Seeing as I'm atheist I don't really believe in life after death. I just believe I cease to be. No emotions, thoughts, or consciousness. Just empty black meaningless void. I won't be able to fear death when I'm dead, or so I believe, but the thought of death while I was alive would always cause me to inwardly panic. I mean there is no reason to fear what you have no control over, but I just can't help it.
To this day I still think about death a lot, but I'm slightly more accepting of it. When it's my time it is just my time. I need to embrace that and just enjoy life for what it is in the present.

Havoc
Yes they are different. Cos people DO think differently. You're different, aren't you? Yet other people would call you mentally ill or just plain stupid or insane. Personally I tink people should accept each other as long as they don't hurt anyone.

What I mean by this is that people have different values in life, and people think differently... Like me.... I have a very loose relationship to life. I don't see myself as being a becessity to the world and stuff.. But as long as I have people that need me, that love me I feel motivated to go on.

Of course I see it as extremely mean and hurtful that someone would commit suicide when they have a loving family and peple that love them. Why would they hurt these people? I see that as just totally mean and cruel. But it IS their choice. If the people have a true reason to end life.... We cant stop them and why hould we? I mean we should try all we can, but it IS their decision. And even though the reason might not seem legitimate to you, it is to them.
Why is it so important to keep people alive? YOu dont even KNOW most of these people who do it,
If there really is NOT anything going for the person in life, and they really DONT want to live anymore... WHY should they be forced to? I dont get it...
We have abough people in this world...

But in conclusion I'd just like to say, I don't sympathize with their choice to end their life. I wish people wouldn't. I find it extremely sad for their beloved ones. But I do sympathize with their reasons.. Or most of them.
It'sa gray area. I wish killers wouldnt kill themselves.. They deserve a punishment. I really think so. But nomatter the reason, the people didn't kill themselves out of stupidity or weaknes.. It is because of a state of feelings at the time, that made them think it was the ultimate answer then.


Also just a question... IF a person wanted to kill him/herself over a 2-year relationship breaking up... Why would you want them to go on, if they found NO happines in anything else? What if their values werent success and social activities. What if the person they were with literally meant everything?
People ARE different. Like.. Most people see academical success as an important thing, but personally Id be happy if I jut had the right people around me, and being able to express my artistic side. If those things were taken away from me, Id find it pretty hard to go on too, as life would contain no meaning anymore. Of course I'd do my best to go on. But If I ever got to that point... Id probably just go out and waste my life on stupid experiments and whatnot.

Unfortunately, telling that to a depressed person makes absolutely no impact.

1. YOU'RE INSENSITIVE!
2. GET HELP!
3. PEOPLE KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH! WHAT MAKES YOU SPECIAL? GET OVER YOURSELF!

It's not nearly as simple as a lot of people would believe it to be. Depression can leave you completely bed-ridden and immobile, just fillin' on up with self-loathing. Logic doesn't enter the equation after a certain point. It's definitely a frustrating thing to deal with as a friend or significant other, but that sort of emotional coldness helps nothing.

Blah blah blah

Speaking from experiance, life can be shit, some people go through real downs, alot of these people are suffering from depression.
People aren't all like you Havoc, mental conditions grip the strongest of us, the majority of our leaders have them, depression is one of them, people see the world in a different light. That explains why some do it, but there a million other reasons, most of them including people like you neglecting them and being oblivious to their suffering.
This girl probably wants others to have empathy, and understand why.
I haven't read the book, and altough suicide is nothing to be encouraged, or accepted, just to be understood why these people do it, in order for us to be aware of the symptons so we can be aware of who is likely suffering and may commit it.
Sure there are many reasons, but they all link back to the basics, a lacks of needs, if someone lacks a necisity, they will die, or at least have the will too, wether that be food, water, shelter, belonging, etc.

As for my experiance, I've gone through hard times, don't realy think it was sucidal, but I did question life pretty heavily and had some what if thoughts a couple of years back, mainly depression. I still feel realy fucked every known and again, and I've tried talking to others, freinds and such, trying to vent off, being philosophical, but most of them are just weirded out and call me a freak, which has only served me to realise how naive and inconsiderate people can be.

Shit, I mean, after a memorial at my school, one kid goes and says "Who cares, people die every day", fuck, I don't think people understand what death realy is any more.

I'm not addressing a depressed person though, am I? As I stated above, I would tell them a number of things; see a professional, visit a helpful institution. Most of all, I would offer my support and be someone to lean on.

My point is, that if a person doesn't make an effort to seek out help in what is a time of very great need - that is what makes the 'out' (suicide) so selfish and insensitive.

As for depression reaching the point where a person is bed-ridden, it has had quite some time to deteriorate to that stage. Time not spent seeking out avenues of help.

I'll admit my view is harsh, but suicide is never the answer (aside from my stand on terminal illness) - and for someone to not seek such readily available help, I can only look down on them.

Alcar...

But you see, with everyone looking down on you, you're not going to seek out help.
Some people do, and they don't get any, others are too bent with their pride, and others are afraid of what everyone will think of them. It's a mental illness, it means you're not normal, essentially, a defect (In terms of Darwinism), and there's a thousand different demeining things you could say about it. It's not an easy thing to admit, and it often comes in random bursts, so you may be fine when you're ready to see someone, but having a realy down time when you're isolated, etc. and there's nothing you can do at that time to help yourself.
A number of cases of suicide are on the spur of the moment basis, so that means, these people will probably agree with you now, but their view completly changes in one moment, and that's all it takes unfortunatly.