The Andrea Yates case and many other stories of the violent mentally ill.
 

Recently, a story has come up in the news about a mentally ill woman in Texas drowning 5 of her children, one by one, in a bathtub. Before that, she was charged with manslaughter and was on medication for mental illness. She is going to be placed in a mental institution. I think that is the wrong decision. That woman is a threat to herself and, more importantly, others and she is violent. Why waste cubic inches of space for a lost cause? Illnesses like hers cannot do anything for society. Think of this analogy: Imagine you have a batch of tomatoes. One of them is rotten and the disease is spreading to the other tomatoes. Are you going to build a separate enclosure for all bad tomatoes and take care of them? Or is it just better to throw it away?

My opinion is, no matter how harsh it may seem, that the best thing to do when you have a violent and dangerous person that is not "all there", or, in this case, not at all "there", is to put that person to a quick and painless...death. This may seem cruel to some people, but it is what is best for the collective. What do you think?

The only bad thing about the execution of the violent severely mentally ill is, possibly, the protest of their families. I understand how one might not want their sister, or, say, their wife be executed. If the charges are pressing, they could indeed be kept in a mental institution at maximum security.

Very interesting analogy there with the tomatoes. Though I say interesting, I really mean "stupid." Why try to dress up institutional murder with a cutesy little story? ****ing tomatoes, gimme a break... :rolleyes:

You start killing off people who you/society consider undesirables you're gonna open up whole avenues of potential shitstorms. How is killing someone who would be locked up until dead or they're better ANYWAY more appropriate?

You are an idiotic, dangerous fool. I'd rather people like you were put to death by the 'decency' of society than the violent mentally ill. Sincerely.

Even though 99% of the population finds it absolutely not done and 'how can you even concider this!' bladibla. I agree with stuff like this.
Mentaly sick people, like this for instance, have no place in this society. All they do is take living space, tax money, and occasionaly even a few lives.
My stance on mentaly disabled people is the following. When it is for one confirmed from birth that a new born has an uncureable mental decease which will never be healed and which will require the person to be under 24/7 mental/medical observation for the rest of it's life... kill it. Simple as that.

Not accepted by the majority of people, but it is how it should be going. For the love of the invivisible father figure! Let nature do it's job of killing of the weak!

Does anyone else find that this [partially] mirrors Jacob's thinking when he decided all ugly chavs should be culled?

I don't think that this woman should be killed - human rights and all that lark. This woman, although a danger, has a right to live her life. However, if she decides she wants to end her life [when she's in a stable state] then I think she should be allowed to make that decision.

- Rexy

What on earth makes you think that? I’d say a fair amount would go along with this kind of thinking. They did in Germany not that long back.

Or maybe you were trying to make it seem like your views are more ‘radical’ and therefore cool or something.

You really are incredibly simple, aren’t you? When I got my statistic chart out, the proportion of people who commit murder are not mentally retarded. Although I see another minority of society DO cause a majority share of crime and murder – the Blacks. Lets kill them at birth as well.

Yay! Aren’t I modern and extreme?!

The way some people talk about ‘nature’ and the importance of it makes it seem as if they haven’t realised that we’ve actually developed as an intelligent, self-aware species since we crawled out of the mud.

Very much so.

It's interesting how you phrase your feelings, keeping it lightweight in the face of – given your thinking – what must be fairly monstrous ideologies to you. Pathetic and cowardly.

This is something similar to what Ambi and I were discussing last night.

Yes some people may be the scourge of this Earth and the planet would probably be better off without them, but to follow a procedure in the case of farmners and bad tomatoes is ridiculous. We are humans, not tomatoes. We have immense distinctions between eachother. It is foolish to compare us to something like tomatoes or something similar.

Humans are thye pinnacle of evolution on this planet. In nature, beetles would consume their own children so that the others have more food, preying mantises would consume the head of their mate during intercourse, and chickens would peck anything smaller than themselves. All of that is based on instincts of natural selection. Humans are at the point where we can choose to defy instincts of natural selection and find better solutions so that everyone can live in peace. Yes, occurances like Andrea Yates will occur, but we truly only become the same thing once we decide to "throw her away."

I rarely reference religion as a solution, but in Christianity (from what I know), you are supposed to loathe your nemy, but if struck by them you should turn the other cheek. Which is exactly what we should be doing with these kinds of situations.

Now I don't mean let them live on as ample citizens. They prove themselves as savage threats to society. The best solution in my mind is to just lock them up and throw away the key.

Blimey, you two sound like a right laugh and a half. :)

MF: I choose to be simple over being complicated. Why be complicated over things that can very easily be resolved?
I see people running around being completely emotional over every living human thing, even when it's a 2 week old embryo people are crying about how we should respect life. And hey, thats instinct. A mother's love for her offspring is biological, because that is what keeps the species alive. Mix that with human emotions (the ones that we developed alongside with your stated inteligence) however, and we get what we have right now. An overpopulated planet taking care of even the lowest of lowest in the human 'foodchain'; mentaly sick people, killers, rapists, etc.

And what does this have to do with blacks? Unless you are saying that all black people are mentaly sick, I do not see any connection to the topic at hand.

And thanks for remotely calling me a nazi, but you're not even to far from the truth. Hitler might have been an arogant guy, thinking anyone diffrent then his was bad, including the healthy ones. But there were good things to his ideas. Killing off the weak was one of them. Killing off everyone else, was not.

Because life is complicated, you dick-faced imbecile. You can't play the simple card when you're talking about killing a great many people. :rolleyes:

I mention The Blacks because you used the fact that some ‘mental’ people may go on to kill people as a factor that should be considered in their destruction. Which is evidently stupid.

Even if someone is stupid enough to endorse such a view - that just opens a whole can of worms. People have different ideas on what human is 'worthy' and which isn't. The blind, cripples, gays, whatever... all could be argued under your thinking to be 'weak' and superfluous. And all it takes is a charismatic leader, like Hitler, to slowly - or not so slowly - implement changes that mean more and more people are no longer considered 'viable'.

You’re so ****ing ignorant.

This is like this guy. He shoved a commuter in front of a train at Mile End station in London after riding the underground for hours because the voices in his head told him to.
Although this guy was different (he actually tried to get admitted into a mental hospital, saying "If I'm not admitted soon, I'm going end up pushing someone under a bus or train or something."), people like this should be dealt with. Now, I'm not saying they should be killed or whatever. In my opinion, they should be put where they belong, in mental hospitals. Anywhere else, they can be a threat to anyone around them.

And nobody would disagree with you. NEXT!

MF, can't you make your arguments without calling people things like "dick-faced imbecile[s]"?

I have mixed emotions and thoughts on this specific subject and the broader subject of the death penalty. As a humanitarian and Christian, I could never fully support killing another human being even if he or she has caused the death of another. However, I wouldn't exactly protest murderers, rapists, etc. being put to death. In fact, I almost have the Jacob-ish view of wanting rapists to be castrated. Hey, it'd at least make a tiny, tiny dent in the overpopulation problem if more space was made by taking away their ability to breed/disposing of those that purposely seek to harm society in the worst ways possible. But again, I couldn't fully support something like that though because of other beliefs and of course, the knowledge that the possibility of the accused being innocent always exists.

Anyway, when you throw in the factor of severe mental illness, things get all the more complicated. Punishing someone seems almost unfair when they are also a victim of their own minds. However, I think such a person should be treated and locked away for a very, very long time if not forever.

That depends on what I'm replying to. If, as is the case here, someone is making obviously stupid 'points' and is hypothetically condemning many people to death - do y'know what? I ****ing will call them dick-faced imbeciles.

Spare me your pointless pseudo-intellectual, softly-softly trash. If people are acting up stupid, I will shout them down. I don't care about the intelligence value in this or how it would progress a 'discussion'.

People be overt idiots=I call people idiots.

Savvy?

The man has a point, I say!

This was a total blast from the past for me. I remember fighting about this, verbally and on forums, about 2 years ago. This thread is like turning on the TV and hearing "Coming up next! A new episode of Brimstone!" Anyhow, I think it is wrong to execute people, especially the mentally handicapped. The husband should face a civil suit, too. He knew Andrea's cuckoo bird flew over the nest a long time ago and was diagnosed with post partum depression. To me a fair share of the blame lays at his feet, too. Manslaughter and willful endangerment should fit the bill.

"Imagine you have a batch of tomatoes. One of them is rotten and the disease is spreading to the other tomatoes. Are you going to build a separate enclosure for all bad tomatoes and take care of them? Or is it just better to throw it away?"

Mental illness doesn't spread.

Bad attitudes amongst Scum, however, does.

Huzzah!

Vote Jacob for World Ruler.

"How is killing someone who would be locked up until dead or they're better ANYWAY more appropriate?"

You could argue that if they weren't to recover, then there'd be room for people in the Asylum who would. Oh, and the whole "taxpayers money" malarky.

"When it is for one confirmed from birth that a new born has an uncureable mental decease which will never be healed and which will require the person to be under 24/7 mental/medical observation for the rest of it's life... kill it"

I can understand your thinking on this, but without them being born we don't get to study them, and without that there's no chance of curing them. Or at least "managing" them more effectively.

"Does anyone else find that this [partially] mirrors Jacob's thinking when he decided all ugly chavs should be culled?"

Not ugly. Not Chavs. Just scum.

If i'm going to be accused of being a stupid, radical Nazi, i want my stance clear.

"Although I see another minority of society DO cause a majority share of crime and murder – the Blacks. Lets kill them at birth as well."

The only reason Black people kill others is because of the Banana shortage due to Global warming. More Bananas = Blacks are merry again. And to advocate killing a race, no matter how Evolutionarily inferior to Whites, is atrocious and disgusting. ...and i'd spit upon the ground in disgust. ...if i could spit.

"The way some people talk about ‘nature’ and the importance of it makes it seem as if they haven’t realised that we’ve actually developed as an intelligent, self-aware species since we crawled out of the mud."

We're like the Monster to Nature's Frankenstein. ...without wanting the wife.

"and chickens would peck anything smaller than themselves"

Considering how interesting the other two facts were, this was a bit of an anti-climax.

"Yes, occurances like Andrea Yates will occur, but we truly only become the same thing once we decide to "throw her away.""

I don't particularly like the whole thing of "You turn into the Monster when you kill the Monster" thing. We've been killing Monsters for ages and most societies are quite merry and well-rounded. ...well, England is.

"The best solution in my mind is to just lock them up and throw away the key."

How far would you go with that though? Lock them up in a plush, merry enviroment? Or in a vile, awful one? And if it's the latter case, surely that's worse? And if it's the former one, what of the public outcry?

"The blind, cripples, gays, whatever... all could be argued under your thinking to be 'weak' and superfluous."

But then surely we'd have to have faith in humanity? Surely somebody who got into power and used the charm offensive could persuade people that crips, Gays and the blind should be put in asylums, but nobody has. In fact, you go on about how things like that could easily be used and corrupted, but would it really? Surely the citizens would rise up and be all "Now then" about it.

"can't you make your arguments without calling people things like "dick-faced imbecile[s]"?"

He hasn't had "any" in a long time. ...and when that occurs, people's faces do tend to look like phallus'.

Oh yes.

O-ho yes.

"I couldn't fully support something like that though because of other beliefs and of course, the knowledge that the possibility of the accused being innocent always exists"

Minority Vs Majority...Minority wins. Interesting. And by 'interesting' i mean...yadda-yadda-yadda.

All that said, i don't think she should be killed. She's a crazy Cat, she doesn't know what day it is, let alone who her kids are. If the person was sane, then yes, i could understand the chants of "KILL 'ER!" but, meh, she's not.

If anything she should be studied.

...and tickled.

That is all.

"A new episode of Brimstone!""

Oh. My. God.

I so agree; I haven't even seen a banana in four months due to Hurricane Edna (or whatever it was called) and I already feel like killing someone. And I'm not even black.

Agh; I'm not going to go into that discussion again beyond to say that someone who got into power and used the charm offensive has done all that and if we're going to learn anything from the twentieth century (and somehow I feel we won't) it's that we must do anything possible to stop it happening again.

"I'm not going to go into that discussion again beyond to say that someone who got into power and used the charm offensive has done all that"

Yeh, but that was then. Do you not entertain the idea that people have evolved mentally since then? I find it impossible that in civilised countries that could ever happen again. And besides, some of the reason why that did happen was 'cos Germany was in a crappy state anyway.

"if we're going to learn anything from the twentieth century (and somehow I feel we won't) it's that we must do anything possible to stop it happening again."

*Tuts*

You Jewbles are never happy unless you're bringing up the Crusades or the Inquisition or the Holocaust!

Jewbles... I like it!

I said I had mixed feelings about it... Half of me is for taking care of "the majority" in a permanent manner, and the other half is way too caring about the individual/"the minority" and the chance of someone being wrongly punished by death. Then there's that uh.. other half? of me that's absolutely against killing anyone. So yeah, don't get all knit-picky about any of my little points because more than likely there's also another contradicting thought floating around in my head about the same subject.

Yes, but people rarely feel obliged to try seeing your point if you're insulting them.

EDEET: Hah, seems like you wouldn't mind the intelligence value of someone else's post if you don't even care about your own. :p

Ugh, what you are all proposing still isn't registering with my mind.

I don't see how some of you can desire the mutilation and/or the extermination of a minority of individuals who really didn't do anything to you directly. I feel it's society's obligation to protect themselves as a whole by means of removing the problem, not necessarily eliminating it or carry out revenge.

To Jacob: Your missing my point. I am syaing that humans have a choice not not to resort barbaric instincts and instead carry out things intelligently. People shouldn't place themselves in this "You hit me, I hit you back" mindset so much. That only slows down the progression of society.

The way I see it is, if she was to be sentenced death then it would be an eye for a leg type affair. Come on, she killed five children. I'm sure noone 'cept the spastic's family would mind too much for her death. She obviously can't be helped, so bam dat wortamelons.

Okay, first off all, life WAS meant to be this simple, we as a species made it so complicated. Nature is doing it's job just fine in killing off the weak in other animal species. Why should it be so hard with us? Just for the record, I'm not talking about killing current adults who are mentaly ill. I'm talking about... getting rid... of future offspring that are declared mentaly ill with a requirement of 24/7 guideance. It's like picking the weeds out of your garden before they start to rip everything apart (no link intended, so don't go there).

Secondly, I did not, at all, say that mentaly ill people around the globe should be killed because they are a potential danger to others. I couldn't give a rats ass about that. What I'm talking about are the 30 year old men that have the mind and sence of a 3 year old.

And your comparison with blinds, crippled, gays, ect is total non-sence. A blind man, if he wants to, can still lead a fairly normal life, not depending on anyone to help him out, at least not 24/7. Same goes for a crippled. And gay people are only a weak and 'sick' group when we start getting the bible involved, which we won't.
Point being, dispite their losses and flaws, these people can at least still function normaly within the society. You can have a nice chat with them, and talk about the weather with them without having to clean up drool from the floor.

And don't call me ignorant, silly boy.

Don't call him a silly boy, Used. That sort of dirty talk will turn this Hitler youth into a walking hard-on.
So Jacob, I assume you enjoyed Brimstone also?
Reggie Bars and eye damage, baby! \M/ \M/ Glover's El Diablo was a slick, believable, and sypathetic one. One of my favorite devil portrayals.

Weak.

I don't give a damn. I'm not preaching to the converted and neither am I going to change anybody's mind. Especially as the times when I DO insult people is when they're being spectacularly stupid. I counter such idiocy with the sort of attention it deserves: "you dick-faced imbecile."

(NOTE: I only read this first line, I couldn't be bothered to read the rest of it. Though I did get a flash of me being called 'silly boy'. Oooh. Scathing!)

Life was MEANT to be simple? Jesus H... the meaning of life, as revealed by Havoc.

We made it complicated because WE'RE complicated. We evolved. Our brains developed, ecetera.

I loathe it when people try to justify extreme points of view by obvious non-logic such as this.

Havoc called me a silly boy. And how am I Hitler Youth exactly?

You just haven't been paying attention, have you?

Sorry, though Used called Jacob a silly boy. Cut me some slack, I've been up for nearly a day and a half. :fuzgrin:

Ack! This is pointless trying to show you all my vision. :robot:

To Havoc: Life is not meant to be simple because the mind is certainly not simple. We may have evolved from creatures whose lives were meant o be simple, but we're the dominant species of the planet, now. Empires, philosophy, and technology are not the result of a simple life. You can try and lead a simple life, but at one point or another you will face events that challenge your psyche to the deepest of levels. And there is no use trying to cover it up by trying to use your daily routine to toss it out of your mind.

Trust me, I've had those events plentyfull and I went for the most simple solution there is. I ignored it. Easy as that. I toss everyone else's problems out the window and focus on my own, which are just as easy to solve.
So maybe it takes a lot of life experience to have such a simple view of the world, like I do. But I wouldn't trade it in for anything, because I love viewing the world this way. Makes life so much easier and you have time left to do fun stuff.

I can see what you're saying, and I agree with you, per se, but I was speaking more in terms of society and the human mind rather than a daily life cycle.

I agree with Havoc. Life is simple, we've just made it complicated, just because we can comprehend more doesn't mean we should necessarily choose to.

"Your missing my point. I am syaing that humans have a choice not not to resort barbaric instincts and instead carry out things intelligently. People shouldn't place themselves in this "You hit me, I hit you back" mindset so much. That only slows down the progression of society."

I see your point. I'd probably even agree with you if we could move the ne'er-do-wells to a different country a la Austrailia back in the day. But we have to pay to look after them, which means money goes into them instead of actually helping others.

...that coupled with the laughable prison system, it's just bad mojo.

"So Jacob, I assume you enjoyed Brimstone also?
Reggie Bars and eye damage, baby! \M/ \M/ Glover's El Diablo was a slick, believable, and sypathetic one. One of my favorite devil portrayals."

I loved 'Brimstone'!! And it irritates me highly that such a class A programme was axed!! And yes, i agree, Glover was a God in that programme. I keep meaning to get the Dvd's but i cannape find them.

"Weak."

The truth usually is.

"We made it complicated because WE'RE complicated. We evolved. Our brains developed"

We have a choice to lead a complicated life though, surely? To say that we've evolved to be superior and have to live superiorly (?) is saying that we don't have choice, yes?

Wrong, wrong, WRONG!

Now that I have that off my chest, back on topic:

I'll just compare this with my attitude on the death penalty: I'm am fully against it. Now, we've all heard these arguments of "an eye for an eye!" and "give 'em a taste of they're own medicine!" and occasionally "Pick me! I'll do it!" but what does this really accomplish?

On the one hand, you've come up with a definite solution to a dangerous problem, provided what should be an effective deterrent, and eliminated the costs of keeping these individuals, whom most people would not mind at all if they dropped off of the face of the earth.

But then, really, how are we any better than they were? Yes, they killed someone, so is that reason to kill them? I'm sure the murderer also had what he/she considered a good reason for killed them, be it "She cheated on me" or "The voices told me too". Now, unlike a prison sentence, should it be discovered that there has been a massive miscarriage of justice, the mistake can't be undone. Sure, you can't give someone back all the time they spent in jail, but neither can you bring back the life of an innocent man. Or woman.

Now to steer this argument back on course:
It is the moral high ground that we have to keep, otherwise, you are just as bad as them, and having thought long and hard on the issue, I just really can't see a difference. The outcome is that you have two dead people, when what you could get is one tragic death, and one reformed person, who might yet give something back to the world. I know many people will disagree with my views, so let the Bullet-bashing commence!

Now, to the mentally ill: there are so many different ways someone can be mentally ill, many of which are treatable. Of course, defining mentally ill is a challenge in itself. Depression is a mental illness, yet should they be exterminated? Many people here on the forums have Asperger's. Are they mentally ill? Should they too be eliminated? (Just to get my answer in quick for you guys: Hell no!)

As it happens, the voices people hear in their heads are actually their own, they simply cannot identify them as such. I know everyone has cluttered, messy minds, and very little control over the thoughts that occur, purely because when the thought to control them happens, so do they. Little "simulations" of various situations, particuarly when bored. Are we all then, mentally ill? I'm almost postive everyone elses minds are like this. Almost...

Anyway, the afforementioned incidents happen all the time, and not just in humans. A good way to indicate natural and unnatural behaviour is to observe them in other species. While it may certainly be unacceptable in our society, we have little understanding of how we as a species will behave.

I respect you guys, and your opinions. But on extermination of dangerous and mentally ill people? I can never agree to that.