Ah, but so can Christians. The laws as the third world know, are all based off the Bible. So being and Athiest and a Christian in terms of how we act (if we are talking about doing things against the law) are not all that different.

I'd like to clarify that I am a pratising Catholic, by the way. I think some people still don't know due to my somewhat non-Catholic (brainwashed *cough*) beliefs.

Alcar...

Well as long as we're discussing our personal religious beliefs, I'm a practicing Taoist.

Suck on it.

No, we can do whatever we want, christians can't. They aren't allowed to copulate unless they're married, and even then it's only to produce kids. They aren't allowed to be gay or bisexual. And the list goes on.

Edit: My original post here was in the wrong place. So...
Happy New Year. (I'm too late for christmas)

I just looked it up and that religion sounds a lot more interesting that the other ones that are around. Although, I think most things relating to asian history and martial arts is cool :D.

You'll find the list is actually incredibly small. The things you listed were basically the major ones. Unless you want to get into the petiness of the rules, at which I could refute that there are many Christian denominations that do not obey every law in the Bible.

You may think you're free, but while in a third world nation, you're bound by the law. Which the Bible built. You've hardly got any more freedom than the rest of us.

Alcar...

Alcar, I'm confused as to what you could mean by a third world nation. It sounds like you must just mean nation. But why put third world if that was the case?

Just because you're Christian doesn't mean you "can't" do something. You still have free will, you know. It may be against your own beliefs or the beliefs of your god, but you can still do something.

And just because you're not Christian doesn't mean you "can" do everything. I mean, if you choose not to have religion then your conscious should at least prevent you from doing some things.

The two things I just said are contradictory, I know; but everyone has some sort of belief system they adhere to when deciding what they "should" or "shouldn't" do... unless you're like a nihilist or something... in which case you don't... but that's kinda a belief system as well. Like an anti-belief system belief thing or something. Whatever.

Whoa. Too many "quotation" marks in my post.

EDIT: Ooh. Religious discussion in a Christmas thread. How "ironic." Except not.

I'm not in a third world nation. I'm in a western nation. I'm not bound by anything - I'm a free man. I'm free to break the law if I want to. I'm free to accept the consequences if I want to. I'm free to run from the consequences if I want to. And I'm free to shag, wank, drink, dress, swear, eat, piss, shit, smoke, and live how, where, and when I want to.

The bible is a book which will -never- find use in lawmaking no matter how much deranged bible loyalists will bleat to the contrary in lieu of its twisted, contradictory, outdated, and unscientific/incorrect messages.

If you want to restrict yourself and live a half-life because you believe that when you die you'll live forever, then be my guest. But don't deny what you are, or how much more atheists can do that christians obviously can't.

Ooops, sorry people, I meant to say first world nations, not third world.

mawk, you seem to be having trouble realising that you are bound by the laws of your nation. And those laws are derived from the Bible. You are still punished for wrong deeds with the laws derived from the Bible. You and everyone else in your country are kept at bay with the laws, the Bible. I could break the law too, but so what? I'll just repent ;)

In my short time on Earth, I've come to the conclusion that the majority of Atheists are a sad pack of people. Take away hope (in eternal salvation), and you haven't much to live for. But that is a generalisation, none the less. I know Atheists on both sides of my conclusion. And it is the ones with a hatred / disgust / contempt of the religious that are usually messed up.

I don't believe in Catholicism because of the eternal salvation I will be granted. Because I'm not sure if there is such a thing. But I do believe there is something, somewhere, looking over us, like God. I think things happen for a reason, and I believe in both destiny and fate. Too many things happen that I can only attribute to the workings of God. And I'm happy with my belief. Perhaps Atheists should learn to be happy with themselves, before they insult those they ultimately envy.

Alcar...

I find it hard to believe all laws in a first world nation can find their origin in the bible. I won't deny similarities for plenty and inspiration for some, but if the bible truly were the begin all end all of law we'd be doing the dark ages bit.

I've lived near fundamentalists all my life, and have come to the conclusion the majority of christians are assholes and morons, but I know this isn't true of all cases. Sometimes their interpretation of the bible allows them to be decent, and possibly exemplary people.

You know, its kind of like those inspirational speakers: Against all odds, raised a christian; Not a self-righteous hypocritical bastard! It warms the heart.

Note: I say this knowing full well plenty of decent christians. My disdain for the belief system stems from its history of absurd prejudice. I just try not to allow my disdain to turn to prejudice.

Alcar, believing in both destiny and fate is quite nice, and fatalistic, though I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. But then the question becomes: Does free will exist? (You must've known someone would mention it). Besides, if you're a decent person, do you really have to believe in a particular god? Why not worship nature or the heavens; why not get all hindu with it and say everything is god? (Its called absolute reality or something of that kin) I would say that's probably about as close as it gets. Having made my point I'll say that I'm only this side of atheism, an that just because I have a really really REALLY loose definition of "god".

Volsung

No I'm not. Laws don't bind you, they simply prevent you from getting away with anything, and they deter you from attempting it in the first place. And those facts are dubious at best.

[QUOTE=Alcar]And those laws are derived from the Bible.

No they're not. They're derived from common sense and peoples rights. The existance of laws in Britain can be traced back to pre-Bible days, and the majority of modern laws in Britain, while sometimes baring similarity to certain bible teachings, are not derived from the bible - some more obvious than others, such as speeding laws, industry laws, and so on.

Punishment for wrong doing dates back to early man. Punishment in Britain is not related to the Bible, a fact which is made obvious by the existance of executions throughout history - a thoroughly unchristian practice.

No, we are not. The laws are NOT the Bible.

That, is what's known in laymens terms, as f*cking the system. Religion doesn't work like that. I'm sure there is a story in the Bible based on the exact same thing you are talking about.

I'm not sad. Since embracing the non-existance of god, I've become a much happier person.

What? That has to be just about the most incorrect and incredibly rediculous statement that I have ever read in my ENTIRE LIFE! HA!

First of all, eternal salvation isn't something you live for anyway. You need to be dead to recieve eternal life. Secondly, I have plenty to live for. If I had nothing to live for, I would kill myself, since there would be no point in living. The fact that I have not done so, along with many other perfectly happy atheists, proves you wrong.

I have no such contempt / hatred / disgust. I don't have to hate a religion to not take part in it. I am not messed up either.

And you're totally entitled to that belief.

I am a man of science, therefore I believe in niether. But again, you are totally entitled to that belief (although science disproves a lot of destiny and fate theories).

That is a very telling statement. I would advise that you take a serious look at WHY exactly you attribute things to the work of god when you don't understand how else they could happen. I think you'll discover that you're not the only person in the history of religion to do what you do.

I envy no-one. I am happy with myself. I don't envy you either. I think you should get your head out of your ass as a matter of fact. I don't want to live forever, sounds like it would be boring.

And why would I insult someone I envy?

If anything I'd say you have quite a warped perspective of Atheists.

Oh, of course. But the majority of first world nations were Christian dominated and ruled when their laws were established. And they continue to be run by Christian-dominated governments. If not, why is homosexual unions (not marriage) still outlawed? Because our governments are run by those of the Christian faith. Everyone knows that you only stand a chance of becoming a President / Prime Minister if you share the same religon as the majority of your voters. And that has been historically Christianity.

I dislike fundamentalists as much as the next person. They take things to the extreme, and ruin what is good about things. And they are extremely selective in their hearing.

I knew someone would ask the question ;) Quite honestly, I'm not phased about whether or not I actually have free will. I believe that free will exists, but that my actions are already known. So much so that my fate has been predetermined from my birth, or even the beginning of time.

Yes, but are you not prosecuted with the law if you've done something wrong? The point I'm trying to make, is that if you do something wrong, it is ultimately, through the Bible, that you are punished.

Britain was ruled by the Monarchy! The very religion of Anglicanism was created in Britain, stemming from the Monarchy! It is undoubtable that religion is tied into your law system. On a side note, how do you explain the Crusades, if such murder was allowed under the Christian God?

Of course. It was a joke. To repent you have to truthfully believe what you did was wrong, and so you will be absolved. Otherwise it doesn't work. Both you and God know you've cheated yourself.

It is a known fact, especially in the science of psychology, that without hope, we are not much. A simple example: If you didn't have any hope, any aspirations that you'd do better in life than you do now, how would you feel? Hope compells us to keep living, and without hope, there is usually only one solution to your problems. Sucide. I hope that I'll pass my exams. I hope that I'll get a good job. I hope that I'll live to an old age. I hope that I'll find someone I love. Without these temporary promises, I wouldn't want to live. Because, why? What is there to live for?

How can science explain things which do not physically exist?

I know there are many people who have said that very statement before me. I don't attribute everything I can't explain to God. That would be foolish. Instead, I wait for Science to explain to those things. But I believe science can't answer everything. The same with religion.

mawk, I never singled you out. I never once placed you, yourself, in any one category of my beliefs on Atheists. I've made generalisations, which I made everyone aware of. You've put yourself into my generalisations. You should chill out, otherwise you'll make yourself seem paranoid.

And it's common knowledge that people often insult those they envy.

Alcar...

Incorrect. Laws were founded as soon as kingdoms were founded.

Homosexual unions are not outlawed in Britain. Homosexual marriage is outlawed, but only because the church disagrees with it. The labour party is currently pushing for the church to change its mind on the issue of homosexual marriage.

No, it is through the legal system that you are punished. You get fines, community service, rehab, prison, expatriation (exile) and execution. None of which have any relation to the bible whatsoever. Each law carries a maximum penalty that can be issued upon its violation. The bible doesn't decide what you did wrong, the law does.

Actually, Britain has been ruled by Emperors, Kings, and has only been ruled by Queens in recent history. The majority of the life of independant Britain was spent under the rule of Kings - so actually, Britain was ruled by a Patriarchy.

So?

Religion has nothing to do with the modern legal system in Britain. The only laws with any kind of connection to religion whatsoever are laws which deal directly with religion, the church, and respecting the rights of people of various ethnic backgrounds.

Drugs, for instance, aren't outlawed because the Bible condemns them, but are outlawed because they are bad for people. Alcohol isn't outlawed because it is a highly taxed world export and import trade, and millions of people rely on it for work. Outlawing it would kill the labour party. Cigarrettes are coming under heavy opposition from both the NHS and the government, who are now attempting to make it illegal to smoke in certain areas.

So you see, religion has nothing to do with it. It's about keeping people safe, respecting human rights, and maintaining a balanced society in which all people have a decent chance to live a normal life.

I'm glad you said that.

I have hope. Who said I didn't have hope? I'm just saying that I don't need some fake god to make me feel better about death. I can enjoy life as I am. In fact I do enjoy life.

I don't have any aspirations to do better than I'm doing in life now. I have what I want and I intend to stay like this. My hope and aspirations are in other things.

I don't see what this has got to do with proving that eternal life is the only reason to live.

Everything physically exists. The only thing that scientists cannot understand or even begin to theorise on without using religion is life. Mainly because it isn't an observable phenomenon. You can only see it happening through creatures. You can't lift up the lid and see how it works, so to speak. However, some of advanced robotics is beginning to answer questions about life itself.

Science cannot answer everything, but answers most things. There are still some fundamental questions that have remained unanswered since the start. Such as the universe, gravity, life, and time.

I put myself into your generalizations because when you say "Atheists in general", then you include everyone who is an Atheist. I am an Atheist, thus you are including me with you generalizations unless you state otherwise. You did not state otherwise.

I think I came to a reasonable conclusion. I'm not paranoid, I am chilled out. Trust. :)

Is it? I respect the people I envy. I look up to them and work hard to obtain what they have obtained. If that's not normal then you've gone and changed everything I know about that aspect of human nature.

NO. I thoroughly disagree. :p

Since the beginnings of Human settlements, there has been some form of moral code. Bible or no Bible.

As for Monarchy, it doesn't stand for anything and hasn't done for over a hundred years. It's just ceremonial and the Royal Family are worthless.

I can't understand why a bunch of hunt supporting toffs, who've never done a days work in their lives, that the British public pay taxes for are allowed to live.

I wanted to say a few things last night in this thread, but as I said in another, I wasn't feeling well dure to oral surgery. I'm still heavily medicated, so bare with me. ;)

Since when did having faith in a religion become the same as wearing shackles around one's ankles and hands? I have every bit as much freewill as the next person. You choose what is right for you, and I do the same. It doesn't matter where one's morals are derived because there is still always choice. Our actions are influenced by various things for different people, so there really is no difference. Christians and other people of some religion just have fear of what their actions in this life will impact their next life. But living out of fear is not what drives most Christians that I know; it's the desire to do what's right. And when one is doing what he or she wishes to do, how can someone else say that person's life is an imprisonment.

Surely, you have heard of all the stoning in the Old Testament. Fortunately, such practices have been overruled.

Well, you do have to live a good life in order to receive it when you're dead. (Excluding young children who haven't come to the "age of accountability".)

Hmm, can one not be a person of science and a follower of God? And I'm curious, how has science disproved destiny and fate?

While I'm on this subject, my personal belief is like that of Alcar. I believe I have freewill, but my choices are already known... but not chosen for me. I'm terrible at explaining this, but I shall try. Okay, here's an example that sort of makes more sense out of what I'm saying: You have a friend, that you've known your entire life. This friend has been presented with a choice of cheating on a test or working hard to study for it. Well, you know your friend so well, that you absolutely know(it's impossible to know-know, but it's that solid feeling that you know what is going to happen... You just know.) that he will study because that's the kind of guy he is. I think that's how God's knowledge of our actions works to some degree.

I believe there is a limited fate and destiny for all of us, like only certain events happen for a reason and have been set to happen to us no matter what. Other daily things are just sort of there. I also think that if our paths have been predetermined, it's in a way that we still have choice. Like our paths that we are set on always have branches, which are permanently set, but we have the choice of which branches to walk onto. Then God's all knowingness is like... He knows what will happen for each individual path if we choose it, but he leaves it up to us to do choose the right thing and choose the correct paths.

Time for more medication...

Heres my $2. Look at all the raging wars over stuff like the bible. In my book, it can only mean there's something wrong with the whole basis of religion. If the bible in it's many forms over the different religions says love thy neighbour and all this kindness towards society why do the wars continue? There's so many different theorys and religions and they all believe god is on their side, who's right, we'll never know.

Niether can I.

I think we should have a toff hunt. Set the hounds on them. :D

Oh the irony :D

Bloody toffs with their stupid red coats and suchlike... What do you mean we're off topic? Oh...

I sure wish there was a someone who moderated boring threads, because this one would be at the top of his list, I'm sure.
And to think, I spawned it... Yet again...

Outlawing drugs/alcohol is a dangerous game. Prohibition cost the U.S. organized crime and NASCAR, back in the day....

In the modern British legal system, and many others, for that matter, the Bible is entirely significant. I'm not much of a political expert, but it doesn't take a degree to realize there is a great deal of influence that has come out of the book. Many politicians nowadays are Christian, many politicians decades ago were Christians, and so on. Moral principles are learned, passed down, and suggested towards others. I can't think of a way to clearly describe the idea, but whether you accept it or not, much of society's moral foundations intertwine with biblical influence, though not remaining confined to direct derivatives.

Something like that.

Mmkay, you just said for yourself that the religion itself promotes love and peace, but you still blame it for wars? How silly. People can be such ignorant, violent creatures, fearing anyone who is different. That's common among all nations and all religions. I'm Christian. Am I sitting here saying, "Let's go get them there Muslims in the name of God! God's on our side! Yee-haw!"? Of course not. I think God's sitting up there frowning and shaking his head lowly at both sides of this war.

But why he's not doing anything to stop this... is beyond me. That just gave me a flashback of the Iraqi woman on Fahrenheit 9/11 crying out to God/Allah, asking where he is. It was a simple reminder that the differing people affected by this war aren't so different after all.

I think that's an interesting perspective coming from someone who lives in Dallas, Texas. You're about as far away from our country as humanly possible, yet you claim that you know all about this.

Well, let me be the first to tell you, that you don't know the first thing about it. If you had some kind of proven experience with UK laws, or done some research with a political expert, looking into their origins and the religious nature of the political parties that have run the country over the years, THEN you might have some kind of backing to your claims.

If you are so eager to prove the link between the creation of British laws and the bible, get a british law and demonstrate the connection to us. And by "demonstrate the connection" I do not mean something stupid like "God says you shouldn't kill anyone so it's against the law to do murdering isn't it yes thankyou please".

When a law is made in the UK, it must take into consideration every single religion and ethnic group in the UK. It must not offend or otherwise encroach upon the rights of any individual to practice his or her religion to the extent which his or her faith requires. I would like to point out that this shouldn't be confused with the bible being the moral base for the creation of the laws.

I stated influence regarding religious followers serving as a portion of the populous, not as specific derivation of laws. Also note, I didn't parade any sort of political expertise, nor confine my perspective soley to Britain. However, since you seem to be so drastically more knowledgable upon your political system, with your attempt to throw away my credibility, I'd like to see you specifically state how on earth the people of a region have no affect whatsoever on laws. Make that other nations with historical ties to the Bible, while we're at it.

I'm not even sure whether I should bother to attempt to respond to this, it's so far off from the debate that it's just funny. :lol:

That bit made me giggle. :D

And yet you did respond to it, even though your last post had even less to do with the "debate" than Majic's.

Now getting back to the topic at hand, perhaps you would like to respond to Majic's last remark...

Majic rarely gets mad. Only certain things piss him off. You pushed his buttons mawk.

What the hell mawk? How is it far away from the debate? Answer it.

You stated, "Religion has nothing to do with the modern legal system in Britain."

I stated, "In the modern British legal system, and many others, for that matter, the Bible is entirely significant."

Note the title of the topic, Laws, and the Bible.

I'm pretty sure the defense of my stance opposing yours entirely relevant to the topic. Also, my lack of knowledge regarding British law is not a necessary aspect in my argument. Thus, your comments putting down my opinion due to that lack of knowledge is beside the point. Yes, if I was trying to say British law is derived from the Bible, I'd look like a fool. Key word being "if".

Note that I'm trying to say that religion (more specifically, the Bible) has a great influence on the populous, and the populous has a great influence on regional politics, therefore religion has a significant, yet indirect, affect on politics. Even in modern times. This seems to cover all aspects of opposition towards you comment quoted above. The only way I see my comments being off topic, is if yours were too.

Ooh, fun, another religous topic

I'll go get my sister

Yeah, I'm Messianic Jew (not to be confused with "jews for Jesus")
So I'm A full Jew with belief that Jesus is the Messiah and all that
yep, It's cool. Maybe a bit more strict than Christian but alot less strict than Catholic
and most of our songs are in Hebrew