Intelligent Oddworld Conversation
 

I saw in another thread where Max said that he'd seen one of the most intelligent conversations on OWF in a long time. Well, I think it'd be good to have more of these. Anyway, here's a perspective on OW that you guys may have thought about.

Okay, did you notice that on M.O.M, newscaster slig refered to Abe as a terrorist. Of course we love Abe and would never think of him that way, but if applied to our world...he just might be. Okay, as far as we know, The Magog Cartel and Vykker Industries provide to the Khanzumers, thus having Khanzumers dependant upon the big industries...much like us. Abe blowing up a major factory would cause much havoc to the Khanzumer economy and would cause suffering with job loss etc. Think if a terrorist blew up a major oil refinery...it'd cause a whole mess of problems for us.

Also, Abe and the natives live amongst nature and we haven't seen major OW cities. Bin Laden hides out in caves and roams the contryside of Iran. Another thing...Bin Laden and company believe they're sent from God and Abe is a chosen one according to his people.

We know Magog Cartel and real world industry is crooked, but we can't live without them and they did this by design.

Now, I'm not saying all the OW fans should live in the forest and blow up factories. Not at all. I'm just trying to see OW from a Khanzumer point of view...which is to resemble us.

Hmmmmm, something to think about.

Discuss!

-oddguy

The difference between Bin Laden and Abe is that Bin's intentions are truly acts of violence against America to get what he wants (like a big baby throwing a tantrum until he gets his bottle). Abe's intentions are to save his buds and simply shut down (or blow up) the place where they were enslaved to ensure that it's one less slave-driving industry to worry about. But your "switched" view is interesting, good thoughts, pals ;)

True. Bin Laden hates America and wants us all dead, when Abe doesn't hate Oddworld at all.

-oddguy

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It's also true that there are two sides to every story. I heard a while ago that in all the condemnation of terrorists, we never really think about what it takes to drive people to do such things. Of course, nothing justifies the kind of actions Bin Ladin has taken, but the point is that he's just as human as any of us, as is anyone who is called a terrorist. But Bin Laden could never hope to be undeserving of that title, unlike Abe.

It's weird because i was thinking about this the other week, with all the stuff on the news about Israel and Palestine. I was also watching a documentary on the Two Towers 4disc dvd and it said something about there are things worth fighting for such as if you and your country is being held by a hostile occupation.

The trouble is that from the Industrialists point of view Abe did commit acts of terrorism, he's killed, and blown up factories!! If this happened tomorrow, say in Iraq it would immediatly classed as terrorism.

Now you could justify Abe's actions by saying that he wants to save his fellow muds but this is the same as terrorists justify their actions.

Glukkons also refer to Abe as a terrorist to make him sound threatening so the public would be deeply afraid of him (plus they would want him dead).

Now what the heck do I have got to do with this eh? :fuzwink:

Anyways, this is indeed becoming a verry inteligent post:P.
Is there any chance Oddworld is gonna get in trouble by 'supporting terrorism'? It would just be something for the american politecians to state that the oddworld quintoligy games actualy represent violence and are a mirrage of the terrorist attacks.

Pffft. I can't believe what I'm hearing! Oddworld is nothing compared to some other much more serious games that take terrorism to it's extremety. Oddworld is f*cking cheesecake compared to Manhunt or Rogue Ops that promote extreme terrorism and violence. Oddworld cannot get in trouble for their type of gaming, there is little violence and they rarely promote terrorism.

yea... thats true I guese...

As someone said, if a carbomb was detonated in Iraq in an attempt to remove American occupation from their land, it would instantly be named as terrorism.
If Abe detonated a factory in an attempt to remove glukkon occupation from his land, the same people would instantly call it heroism.
Of course he is a terrorist, there is no denying that. He's just a terrorist with a different cause to modern world ones - namely saving other mudokons.

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The problem Abe deals with isn't so much Glukkon occupation, but what they do to his people. That's the difference in what Abe does. America doesn't take Iraqi people and force them to slave away in our factories, and kill them if they ask questions or don't do their job. But the Glukkons do that to Muds, and that's why Abe does what he does. It's about fighting slavery.

I think the real world inspiration for it is in Africa. The African tribes that are forced to work in Diamond mines. Most of the Diamond mine owners are Americans.

The African tribes feel that the industrial efforts in Africa are polluting the air, and in general putting their people at risk.

It's suprising how many real world inspirations Oddworld took. Oddworld is essentially a bizarre twisting of the problems faced on Earth. The reason we see in real life so much of what we see in Oddworld is because Oddworld really is Earth - it's a way of marketing the truth to people in a way they can digest. Once they've played the game through, they will have a true solidarity with any similar world event or problem, and will therefore understand it better.

At least that's my take on it. Oddworld is a great many things, aside from being a game, it's a great work of art, but when it comes to political message, it's just Earth. It suffers the same problems.

If OW wanted to be really hard hitting, they could actually have humans working in Diamon mines, but then people would experience the dark truth of everything which isn't good for light gaming fun...

The game has more aspects to than just the politics.

But lets look at the very difference of Oddworld and our world shall we.

Oddworld is huge thus there are all kinds of different types of intelligant lifeforms that exist on the Planet and interact with each other in positive and negative ways. Mudokons, Gabbits, Sligs, Glukkons, Vykkers, Interns etc etc, each are a member of a totally different species. So in the case of Oddworld a Glukkon to a Mudokon is a complete alien lifeform even though they live among each other. Because they each belong to a totally different species. The cultures of which are extremely Alien to each other, is where you get this strange and profound existance.

Our world only has one species of inteligant life and that is us Humans. But we fight each other because Humans come in different colors and cultures but we are the same species.

Oddworld is totally the opposite that mirrors our very own culture through the many diffent alien cultures of Oddworld. We see Oddworld filled with all kinds of wierd lifeforms that for them each individual is like an alien to another.

A Glukkon to a Mudokon is like a Human to an ET. Thus the motives of individuals like Abe on Oddworld are justified because there is conflics among all these different alien races. The Mudokons are simply going to protect their kind from unknown alien cultures that want to do harm to them like the Industrialist.

But for Industrialist doing harm is justified because thats their culture.
The most profound horrific reality of Oddworld is that each views themselves as being right which makes that the norm on Oddworld. So everything we are seeing from all the torture and slaughtering is practically natural on Oddworld.

Thats the scary reality of Oddworld.

Earth and our individual conflics arent justified because we are all the same species and we are simply killing ourselves.

Oddworld is many different races that interact in alien ways to each other that eather benefit each other or causes harm to each other. But for Oddworld thats normal and thats whats scary and disturbing about it.

Ya know the term "for all the Inhabitants live on Oddworld together." Well what we see on Oddworld is normal and that is whats disturbing and different.

I disagree. I think a glukkon to a mudokon is like a business man to a tribal african chief. Not alien, but different.

But Esus a business man to a tribal Chief isn't different in the terms of species. They are both human beings with very different life styals. Thats the difference and I am not pointing that out.

What I am trying to ephansize here is that a Glukkon is not a Mudokon. or a Mudokon is not a Gabbit. They are completely different lifeforms that mirror us in their own cultures towards each other which makes it odd.

A business Man to a tribal chief is the same because they are the same kind same species of life. They are both human beings right? so there we go. Where on Oddworld they are not the same kind of species which makes it different but normal for Oddworld.

Actually PA, Esus is right. I'm pretty sure lorne said himself, that all the creatures in oddworld are based on certain human lifestyles. The creatures are like the physical incarnation of a certain lifestyle.

Just because they are a different species in the game, doesn't mean they can't all be based on certain humans. Some of us are so different, we might as well be from different species. The common factor between most of the important OW creatures is that they are all intelligent. Humans are all intelligent too. Which is why, unless OW is about protesting against humans use of other creatures, all the OW creatures are based on humans.

Death I am not trying to enphasize that here. I know the inhabitants mirror us. I am saying they each are different species. Earth only has one inteligant species. Oddworld has many. A Glukkon is not a Mudokon! A Glukkon is a Glukkon a Mudokon is a Mudokon, A vykkers is a Vykkers, Thats what I am saying. I know what you mean but I am not pointing that out.

Earth has more than one intelligent species. If you ask me, I'd say man is actually quite stupid.

Yes, I think we've already established that. Unless you thought that a glukkon IS a mudokon.

I don't see your point PA.

Oh my god you guys don't get it!

I am not talking about culture here ok I am talking about species. If your a man or a woman your still a human being. if your stupid or inteligant your still a human being.

The same concept applys for Oddworld. If there is a stupid Mudokon he still a Mudokon. The point is that there are many different species of inteligant life on Oddworld that mirror us which is normal for them which makes it disturbing. And on Earth theres only one.

Then you changed the subject, we were talking about culture before you got here so technically you changed the subject and confused us.

Nevermind just forget it anyway my point Earth is odd and Oddworld is actually normal is mainly what I have been all along trying to explane.

So there.

:fuzconf: :fuzconf: :fuzconf: :fuzconf: :fuzconf: :fuzconf:
Ok, now... you COMPLETELY lost me!

Anyways...

That I totaly disagree, sorry to change the subject here for a sec but I want to have this said.
I think if you where to make a list of rankings of what species being the smartest and what the dummest... I think the humman will most likely be somewhere at the bottom... maybe not... but certainly not at the top. Some ppl like to think... we have got a languege so we are inteligent... who says animals don't have one? Its just that we understand them just as hard as they would understand us.

---

Ok, back on topic :fuzemb: .
PA does have a point, although Im probably the only one who gets it :P.
The diffrence with earth is not so much that there is only one inteligent species (read above :fuzzle: ) but that there are a lot species that can understand each other.
Emagine what would happan here on earth if Humans, dogs, cats, tigers, lions, dolphines, pigs and horses could all communicate with each other. Then you get what PA is trying to make clear:

So, did I get it right then???

While each species posesses its own sub cultures and subtypes, they are all pretty much undiverse within themselves. Each species generally prefers one lifestyle - while there may be rogues who go out and do other things, glukkons, muds, whatevers, they usually all do the same sorts of things. In the same way creatures in the wild usually only do things unique or related to their species.

We as humans however, are very diverse. We all do lots of different things. It's much more popular to be unique on a world with only one intelligent species, than it is on a world with many different species. If you are a gluk, and want the lifestyle of a mud, then that's something different altogether. Whereas if you are a human, you can pretty much live how you want without having to change much about your identity. You've only got your own kind to impress, because your own kind are the only ones.

At least, I think that is what PA is trying to get at.

What differs between Oddworld and Earth is that OW has different species that speak the same language...unlike Earth.

-oddguy

Yes, not many humans can understand barks or meows. :rolleyes:

The "oddworld has many intelligent species" point is interesting to me, mainly because it seems to underscore a latent hypocrisy in the way we (as a greater human culture) view the world in general and the past in particular. The main difference between the types of intelligent species on oddworld is essentially one of culture. There is the industrial culture and the native culture, but there are many species that belong to each group. It's agreed that glukkons are part of the industrial mindset, but nowhere has it been stated that they are genetically wired to think that way. In fact, the "sligstorm" game and working mudokons (In the city) illustrate the point that these divisions AREN'T REAL. By that I mean that they are completely mental and if all the oddworld creatures dissapeared tomorrow, it would be impossible to tell which ones thought the environment should be exploited, and which ones thought it should be protected. This major division is a mirror of the human cultures at work. If you look at it from this mindset there are only two major cultures in all of human history. Those that thought that man was lord of the earth, and must therefore change it as he wished; and those that thought man was a creature of the earth, dependent upon it for survival. I'm not talking about the difference between environmentalists and corporations. I'm talking about the difference between the Bushmen of africa and a Realtor.

Despite clashes between the subsets of what you might call "Civilized" humans and other "civilized" humans, their major outlook on the world and mankind's role in it is essentially the same. "The world was made for man, and man was made to rule and conquer the world." That quote's from Daniel Quinn. In grave contrast to these aforementioned clashes clashes between Civilized and Primitive peoples always takes on a very onesided approach. It was said earlier that glukkons are not mudokons; quite true. On the other hand, all people are human. Still, this isn't how primitive peoples are treated. When the europeans took over the americas they didn't view it as stealing, because to them the natives WEREN'T HUMAN. There were dozens of reasons for this, most notably--and arguably the only--reason was that the europeans considered humans to be lords of the land. Yet these creatures did not hold sway over the earth but instead were forced to live like animals. Thus, obviously, they couldn't be human. There were religous reasons too, but these were created out of the same main idea. Humans were above animals in every way.

Ask yourself this: Has evolution stopped? If the answer is yes, then why has it? If your answer is no then you've got to wonder what exactly is keeping humans as the dominant intelligent species. Industrialisation. We are currently the only species--possibly barring ants--that kills creatures which eat the food of our livestock. Think about it. Why go to the trouble? On oddworld all you have to do to get food is wander around a bit and find it. Back in the day on earth that was all that was needed, but for some reason one small sect of people decided that humans should rule the earth, and they went about making life hard on themselves. I could go into more detail, but I doubt this is the place.

As for Abe being similair in ways to Osama; sure. Though Bin Laden fights from an extremist religion standpoint, the initial catalyst was the same. Both Abe and Osama bomb the powers which have killed thousands of their people. When you get right down to it, statistically speaking 911 was no big deal. More people died that day of heart attacks. The american government has bombed and killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 500,000 afghanistans during what was allegedly peace time. That's a conservative estimate, by the way. Of course it would be insane to attempt to justify 911 as it was unjustifiable, but allegations that "They hate our freedom" are laughable.

Another difference between abe and osama. Bin laden set himself up to bomb, whereas it was just dumb-luck that put abe in his situation.

On a final note, Man probably is the most intelligent species on earth right now. (Except maybe dolphins) Still, it's the misuse of this intelligence that makes us dangerous. Maybe oddworld knows what's up.

Intelligent meaning "intelligent on a level that is at least comparable with humans".

I see no hypocrisy in this, only blunt truth. We ARE the most intelligent things we can think of. No other known living thing is as intelligent as us.

But, I didn't read all of your post. Why? Because it was huge, and in the first paragraph you made the cardinal error of going on for more than 8 lines. Some good points volsung but a bit long winded. :)

I believe I did get a little too long-winded there death, Sorry. The point about Hypocrisy I originally was making was that humans have a history of treating other humans as either intelligent beasts or soulless human constructs, making it ethically acceptable for them to take advantage of primitive cultures. Happened with the american indians and tribal peoples all over the world, including today. "Human life is precious, unless it doesn't have the same world-view we do. Then it isn't human." That's what I meant. I think this is a point oddworld makes quite nicely.

And I'll shorten the posts.

Well it's been a part of human history hasn't it? De-humanising people so that they feel better about killing them. It happens in cars, it happens in the military, and it happens in the media.

These days it is less acceptable to be so intolerant of others. Which is why Bush is getting such a bad run. And it's also why the majority of his supporters are sub-smart.

But some very good points there Volsung! I can't fault you on any of them. :)

PA, I'm sorry but I think you're wrong. I know technically mudokons and glukkons are different species, but I feel that see each other more as a different culture to a different species, much like westerners do to tribal africans. The reason is because that is what the two species represent. They are representing different human groups. The fact that they are genetically different species is quite irrelevant.

I'd only be reitterating if I also discouraged whatever PAs thoughts were about species difference and such.

But I have to agree with Death and disagree with the few others who've said humans aren't the most intelligent on earth. We're relatively new creatures in the scheme of things, being around for a far less period of time than others. Long ago, we were somewhat suited the harsh, uncivilized enviroment of the earth generations ago. Now, through the path of natural selection, we've lost many of our old characteristics that allowed survival in those harsh times.

What leaves us as the dominant race is intellectual capacity and ABILITY to carry out ideas. By being able to actually do create what we think allows advancement upon that, and thus the cycle repeats. In the past few centuries, our technological capabilities show an incredible exponential growth. Other species haven't done that, and certainly don't have previously recorded knowledge to ultimately build on.

Primitive traits and actions ma be able to justify calling us a species of lesser intelligence, but in reality those may as well be byproducts. Because of the culture and lifestyle differences explained so well by Volsung (who I now believe kicks total ass), you're going to have disagreements and such. But if you can't see, popular opinion is slowly turning more to that of prevention and improvement as a whole. In modern times, if someone tries to terrorize or rule with an iron fist, something is done about it. The realization about the world around us is growing; give it more time, and it'll develope into what current idealists pray for.

I love you Volsung.

About Glukkons and Mudokons being a different species, I only agree if we're not talking in metaphors. These creatures wouldn't be alien to each other, as they've actually evolved and developed alongside one another over millennia, and probably wouldn't be consumed by culture shock if they entered each others' settlements. Shocked and disturbed, likely, but not totally alienated. In that sense, I agree that species on Oddworld do indeed represent different sides of humans: broadly speaking, the natives and the industrials. Of course, there are subsets within them - the industrial world seems to be divided into families that dominate different factors of society (science, manufacturing, economics etc), which are a reflection of their development and individuality as species. However, Oddworld is a large place, as PA said, and species from opposite sides of the planet will indeed be alien to one another.

About intelligence, I haven't got anything remarkably deep to mention, but I reckon humans are the most intelligent species ont he planet, but only in terms of knowledge. When it comes down to knowing the planet, knowing nature, and knowing who we really are, we're more than likely in the lower echelons of intelligence. We grow so dependent on technology, but when civilisation is removed, we do actually forget about it. When the Romans had to abandon their empire to protect Rome, within 300 years the natives had resorted to tribal conflict, unindistrialised and totally uncivilized. Even in the ruins of Rome, farmers kept watch over the flocks with only the most obscure of myths to keep the memory of Rome alive. When money was reintroduced to Europe from the Arabic countries in the Tenth Century, it was considered a form of magic. Even today we haven't yet reached a single currency or language. This just goes to show how superfluous society really is.

I won't go into how I believe this may very likely happen again very soon. And when I say again, I'm not referring to Rome, I'm referring to whatever advanced pre-human culture constructed Nan Madol, Yonaguni, the Baalbek Trilithion and the Spynx.

EDIT: I'm going to split the thread and send the latest topic budding to Off-Topic.

Mainly to put this into simplier terms is that earth possess many cultures as you all stated within one form of intelligent life and that is us Human beings.

The definition of Intelligent life is any lifeform having the capacity for thought and reason especially to a high degree; Mainly any life that is like us is defined as intelligent life. So in other words we havent found anything beyond our world that is like us if we do we will label them intelligent wether they are primative or not.

A type of life that is able to build technology, great cities, creating a society. A type of life that has written and recorded its history is labeled as intelligent life.

Wild life is not intelligent because they don't possess our ability to record language or the ability to build great industrial societies, and native societies and technology and so forth and so on.

Wildlife does communicate but more on a survival and instinct type of scale and level but they are not as defined above intelligent like us.

Oddworld mirrors the cultures that all man kind possess through the many different intelligent life forms from native to Industrial and perhaps eventually a new type possably a common type like what a Khanzumer might be.

And also they live all on the same world which makes Oddworld a multi intelligent life world. Our world is a single intelligent life world. Thats the difference.

Paramiteabe... :fuzblink:

As I said in my last post, perfectly intelligent creatures don't necessarily have to be able to write and record their history. After the collapse of the Roman empire, Europe fell back into a state of utter political chaos - no money, no transport, no science, no class divisions, only the most basic of buildings. It almost completely forgot the Romans existed, and certainly did not keep a record of history. Yet they were clearly what you have otherwise described as an intelligent species.

And about animals only communicating on an instinctive and survival level, I'd have to disagree there. Most animals' linguistic capabilities are limited only by the physical structure of their vocal regions. Cats simply do not have the muscles to alter the cavities of their mouth, nose and oesophagus necesarry for producing the wide variety of sounds necessary to build up a sophisticated language. But, on the other hand, cats actually have the most complex and advanced language of any species besides humans. Who's to say what they could achieve if they could only evolve the right body (I say that suspecting you don't believe in evolution PA, but correct me if I'm wrong).

Actually, there was the case of the parrot that could immitate human speech to the degree that it could construct its own unique sentences and string words together to try and refer to objects it did not know the name of. This is the same kind of behaviour children go through when learning to speak and understand others, so it's quite clear that in terms of mental language, humans are not necessarily the pinnacle of the animal kingdom.

Yeah so you think the parrot actually understood what it was saying?

PA certainly has a point about being the only intelligent species we know of, but allow me to post a few bulletins.

1. Humans are physically some of the weakest animals there are, incapable of surviving without tools or weapons in the wild. What then is our defense mechanism? No matter how you say it, the bottom line is that we are able to reason abstractly. We can put meaning into meaningless things, creating weapons, homes etc. Our defense strategy is culture. We are the only species to have that.

2. Unfortunately the ability for language is hindered without the ability for abstract thought. I don't know about the Cat example above, but many apes have predetermined soundsets for communication. This means that the same species ape in africa and europe could warn each other about a snake, but neither could make a sound to represent a plane. Humans again are the only animals known to have linguistic variety.

3.There's no way of knowing for sure what the parrot could understand. If it could speak knowledgeably in a human tongue there's no telling whether it's learned a format to speak in or whether it's truly gone a step higher on the evolutionary ladder. (By higher I simply mean more complicated or sophisticated) No matter which is the truth, it still implies that it is the physical limitations of the vocal chords that hinders human to animal communication.

4. No matter that all the above put humans at the top of an evolutionary list, it seems asinine to believe that other creatures can't reach the same pinnacle. Many animals have some of the characteristics (Raccoons-opposable thumbs; Bears can walk erect; parrots and ravens have similair vocal abilities) yet none have the ability to reason abstractly. Still, Time and evolution march on. It is inevitable that another species will emerge as a recognizable intelligent life form.

5. A final note: it's probable that animals can reason abstractly to a certain degree. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's evidence of such. (Would the sign-language gorilla indicate this? I'm not sure.) Anyway, No animal has all these characteristics combined. When I see a squirrel in a loincloth, I will know the evolution has come.

Or should this have been in off-topic?

Edit: Note that I said pinnacle in No. 4. This is wrong. There's no reason to believe humans are at the top of the evolutionary ladder. In fact, seeing a top to evolution seems counter-productive. That was pure egocentrism in regards to humans. Sorry.

Considering it was providing unprovoked descriptions of objects it hadn't seen before, yes I do, and so do most of the people and scientists who have met it. I'm sure a saved a link to the article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3430481.stm