COVID-19
 

I'm near becoming a necromancer of forums with all these new threads in the last days, but I thought this topic would've been worth discussing here.

Since the first days of March most of the countries (mine included) went into lockdown due to the COVID-19 pandemic, forcing everyone to go into self-isolation in their own home and venture into new spacing and health security measures. First only a few nations had to go through this, but a bit later the entire world had to face this new threat.



Now the cases of infected are going down in some nations, in some (incredibly) are not.
How were your experiences in this dangerous phase all of us had to go through? And what are your expectations regarding the future, after all of this is over?

i had it back in March but fortunately my symptoms were very light, though i've been getting winded more often than i used to - not constantly, but it's significant.

my job was closed up until around mid-June, though i started working remotely i believe during May (very small amount of work). i was also paid normally throughout, thank god. i lucked out with that. one of the perks of being a local government employee.

this corona shit has made me a little panicky if i'm honest. it hit home when it became mandatory for everyone to fucking hide indoors and wear a face mask if out and about. i'm pretty sure that has never been a thing in britain during my lifespan at least. pretty much reminds me of this dumb comic

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/amzgqYj_700b.jpg

i don't know what to think really. i'm also dubious about taking any vaccines they start flinging out to the people because it's all very rushed. i'm not an "anti-vaxxer", fuck no, but in this case it's not like they have the advantage of time in cooking up this miracle cure. how do they know for certain there won't be any long-term debilitating effects? that kind of shit has happened before, it isn't foolproof, and i'm too fucking paranoid to just blindly do as i'm told and take my medicine.

right now i'm at a fork in the road where i don't know what to do, and instead of coming to a conclusion i've decided to sit down and have a picnic at the crossroads while i think about it, even though there's no time, and even though everything around me is on fire. i don't know.

please don't insult gunshow comics

First, the reports came out of China that they were erecting a hospital in just a week to house the sick and infected. I dismissed it as typical media palaver, designed to work people into a frenzy about something far away and that it would blow over within a month and we'd never hear of it again.

Images began to circulate showing often crowded and packed parts of China in a state of total desertion, as though humanity had been scrubbed from existence. It was surreal, but I paid it little mind and assumed it would be cleared up soon.

Somewhere after that, I saw a post on 4chan that said something to the effect of China was lying about the numbers and the actual number of infected and the death toll was absurdly high. I thought it was worrying, but I ultimately put it aside and out of my mind.

Then came the reports of Chinese borders closing and people being stuck in hotel rooms in China, where they couldn't leave and had to wait on room service to bring them food. I began to wonder what kind of illness this could be that would bring about such radical policies, but I consoled myself by saying "it's China, they're authoritarian and it's probably just them flexing a muscle".

Suddenly there was talk on the radio about the virus spreading to Europe. I paid it little credence and heard an off-hand quote from WHO claiming there was extremely little chance it would spread to Denmark or even Europe altogether and that their techniques for preventing spread of disease would stifle it immediately. So, once again, I paid it no mind. Then Italy erupted in cases and I rolled my eyes saying "of course the Italians are the ones that slip up. Never mind, we have better government here, we'll just wait it out". When other parts of Europe reported cases, though, I had a different thought: "I hope it comes here, then I can stay home from university, saving me hours of transport by bus". In my ignorance, at the time, I assumed it was much like any other flu virus and was a case of feeling queasy and ill for a week or two, then going back to normal. I joked with friends that people were overreacting to something that was merely a case of sniffles.

That is, until more detailed explanations and stories about the effects of Covid-19, the ease with which it spread and the difficulty associated with preventing infection came to light. Suddenly, rather than joking, I was concerned. I was all too happy when my university decided to close down, both because it granted me the time out of public transport that I had wanted but also because the atmosphere around had changed so dramatically that I didn't want to be in a crowded classroom.

It's been very interesting to see this problem escalate so dramatically. It's been gratifying to have some changes to daily life that I've always felt surely must be possible, such as remote learning or digital solutions over the internet. It's been worrying to feel like we know so little about a modern problem and have it revealed that advice on what to do is constantly shifting and there are no guarantees of anything. It's been nice to scratch out a huge chunk of my day-to-day that would ordinarily be devoted to transport and university and replace it with all kinds of other endeavors.

I would like to believe that at the end of this crisis, we will see lasting changes originating from this. My gut tells me we won't.

My concern for the future is in how this ends. A vaccine, from the little I've read, doesn't sound likely. Even if it does come about, it could take years to manufacture and distribute appropriately. There is, I suspect, going to be quite a long time where interactions with others are limited and our lives are dramatically different.

Because while you're right that side effects from vaccines have happened before, they know from those past times that side effects tend to show up within six months in adults. Which is why the vaccines, even though early signs are they will be effective, aren't being handed out already. They're waiting for the six months to be up to make sure there won't be side effects.

Bear in mind that they're not inventing new ways to create vaccines here. This is all established technology being used on a new virus.

oh okay, thanks Nate. that's eased my mind a little.

paranoia!

There are worse things in the world that'll kill you than Covid.

It's a media circus. I'm done arguing over figures and statistics.

The whole 'pandemic' is a fucking sham.

5% of people in the US who are tested positive will die. One in 20. Shut the fuck up.

Okay rat licker

It is a big stretch to call the pandemic a sham, but its death toll (at 812,758 in the time of writing this) is currently lower than any of the following:
- Yearly death toll of smoking ( approx. 7 000 000 )
- Yearly death toll of alcohol ( approx. 3 000 000 )
- Yearly death toll of driving accidents ( approx. 1 350 000 )

Of course, the year has not yet ended, and Coronavirus will take more lives, might unfortunately double, I'm guessing. While I do understand media's burning desire to gain viewership by broadcasting about the virus because it's trendier than to talk about the "usual" causes of death people don't want to hear about, I don't think we should ignore this one.

In fact, why don't we try to avoid all of those death causes? That would be nice.

you can't compare the fatalities of covid with that of cigarettes and alcohol, that makes no sense. people willingly smoke and drink, and both are addictive. of course their death tolls are going to be higher. people aren't willingly contracting corona. if there was 7 million people dying from covid i think we would be royally fucked.

We do - that's why there are drinking guidelines, health warnings on cigarette packets and a highway code (and DUI laws). But this has nothing to do with covid-19.

Cynical though I often am, in this instance, it seems justifiable that a novel coronavirus which has just swept the Earth, impacting not only people's direct health but also reshaping the economy and thereby affecting people's domestic and working lives, receives regular media coverage. I don't think it's just for a few extra clicks...

This, and bear in mind possible long-term health effects that could emerge, too. That covid-19 is new is a very important detail.

The reason I showed those statistics is to show the scale of the problem. Although I don't share Dixanadu's emotional indifference (if you could call it that) towards the virus problem, he doesn't strike me as incorrect when he says there are avoidable things that kill more people than COVID-19.

Living near the alley of pubs, I can safely say it's as effective as our COVID-19 prevention.

It is far from me to expect mainstream news outlets to have anything other (such as getting people well informed about things around them) than their own financial benefit as their top priority. I suppose I'm more cynical then.

But the examples you gave largely involve a significant degree of personal choice and have a much longer history than covid-19.

Not really comparable, though - people who go to pubs are specifically choosing to drink (without getting into the issue of alcohol dependecy, which would be tangential). So what do we do about that? Employ bouncers to rip pints out of people's hands? You can argue about the efficacy of the measures which supposedly control the issues you listed, but the point is that these are matters which are addressed, and have been for years.

This is why there has been some dreadful and irresponsible coverage about covid-19, including the lack of media sympathy in the UK when it came to the recommendations of the British Medical Association that schools should not open too early, and including unpleasant figures such as Nick Ferrari openly deriding homeworkers as lazy because having fewer people go to into work and risk contracting/spreading a novel coronavirus means that Pret a Manger might not make so much money. It is, unfortunately, more complex than "corona=click". The issue has been misappropriated by some in order to score points for their given ideology, but don't make the mistake of assuming that this means it's not a actually a very serious issue.

In the UK the government has committed to a eugenics programme whereby the elderly and people with special needs are being funnelled through care homes. Yesterday the MSM finally reported that ALL care home patients that contract COVID are given DNR orders.

The care home population comprises 0.02% of the UK population but over 15% of COVID deaths.

So you are elderly or have severe special needs. You have fought desperately just to survive through life. Someone in your carehome contracts COVID. You cannot see your friends or family anymore. Your home is understaffed so your already limited care is even further restricted. You are scared and confused, your mental health deteriorates as more and more of your friends and caregivers get sick. Many of them die. This is a genocide. This is how our government removes the elderly and the disabled from our population: weaponising a plague and the awful state of our healthcare provision.

Care insurance providers have increased their premiums by an average of 880%.

More than 50% of carehomes are being pressured to take untested new patients.

The largest private care provider has ZERO access to testing equipment.

Scottish governmental guidance tells carehomes not to send infected patients to hospital. Instead, they should be left to die in the fucking prisons we as a society have created for them.

Fuck this virus. Fuck the government. Fuck our pathological inability to organise against these abhorrent acts of inhumanity.

seriously, words can't really describe how fucked up that is. jesus christ.

i've always suspected that our government and many others are savage ugly monsters who will silence anyone that makes an issue for them, but when you occasionally get a glimpse at what is really going on behind the scenes and how systematic and calculated it is, like we're just oblivious cattle being led by the nose through an abattoir, it scares the shit out of me. genuinely. they literally don't care.

I shouldn't derail the topic too much, but knowing how physically addictive those substances can be, combined with the social pressure to at lest try them (if only once, and I suppose we all know it doesn't end at the first try), I don't put it into a whole different realm of choice than the choice to go out less often during the pandemic, wearing protective gear like visors when you do, disinfecting hands (and then face) when you go back. And I don't mean it in a way to diminish the pandemic's importance (it's a big issue), but rather highlight the other deadly problem more than it is being highlighted.

Out of curiosity: Can you resuscitate a person without a risk of contracting the virus yourself? (I'm assuming mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is necessary). Some sort of mechanical plastic pumps?

I understand feelings of empathy towards the elderly, but I wouldn't go as far as to say the government deliberately wants any of the country's population dead.

well it doesn't matter what realm you put them in, they're two completely different things. you're comparing a contagion that we do not have a vaccine for, that has the capacity to kill you, with smoking and drinking (and DUI for some weird reason). that's like comparing space travel with a baboons arse. they do not correlate. smoking and drinking is more of a long-term potential issue that stems from addiction and drug abuse, and usually begins voluntarily, and it's not friggin contagious. can't you see how that completely contrasts with a pandemic? maybe you should stop defending points that are invalid, because your comparison does not work. would you like to drag this out some more or can we move on?

i don't know if i'm misreading you here, but are you saying that smoking-related deaths are 'the other deadly problem'? during a pandemic? i mean, i have to ask because that seems too stupid to be the case. i'm hoping i'm wrong.

you can use a resuscitation bag to keep someone breathing without physically performing mouth-to-mouth, therefore DNR orders raise red flags.

hah. good one, varrok. i'm sure all they want is world peace and free love and money for the poor. building a wheelchair ramp for tiny tim is high on their list of priorities.

that's me being cynical.

As MA has pointed out, there's no equivalence between those issues and covid-19. You also can't argue that concern for covid-19 is supplanting concern for those issues, because there are existing measures that try to address those issues (and have been for decades), so for all you can debate the efficacy of whatever your country's measures are, covid-19 is clearly the most urgent issue at the moment, given its novelty and especially given its wide range of indirect effects, not just on health, but the economy.

At best, they don't care. The UK's Prime Minister (or more accurately, his advisor, Dominic Cummings - we all know who's really in charge) is reported to have remarked during a conference that they should pursue a strategy that aims to reach herd immunity as quickly as possible and "if that means a few old people die, too bad". This was disputed by No. 10, in fairness, but given that Cummings is a noted eugenicist, I'm not sure their word can be taken at face value, as the remark seems consistent with Cummings' political beliefs.

I'm not sure that Varrok's point is so much that smoking, drinking or DUI is comparable to coronavirus, so much as it is an attempt to expand upon Dixandu's point that there are "worse things to die of", regardless of their legitimate point of comparison to Covid-19. Which, thinking about it, seems to be near enough impossible, seeing as how Covid-19 isn't really comparable to many other modern diseases or illnesses in terms of our ability to combat or deal with it.

It was indeed what my point was. Apologies if it came across as anything other than that.

Obviously we've never had a similar pandemic during our lifetimes to compare to this one. I wouldn't say Swine flu counts.

What's the deal with this whole herd immunity, anyway?

It was a bit of a shitstorm over here, because the chief scientific advisor outlined that one of the desired outcomes of the Government's strategy of doing piss-all* was that the virus would spread further and wider in a shorter space of time, the idea being that more people would develop immunity to the virus faster, thereby making it less likely for remaining people who aren't immune to contract it. In fact, the Prime Minister appeared on television and used the words "take it on the chin and let it move through the population". Great policy to adopt for an unknown virus. Obviously, this would be a terrible idea that would result in (and it seems has resulted in - they've argued that they haven't pursued 'herd immunity' officially, but they've been very slow to introduce measures when they've eventually succumb to duress, so whether that's the official position or not, the effect is the same) very many preventable deaths. And now it looks like it's possible to become reinfected, it seems like a somehow even worse idea.

*it looks like the Guardian's all I read with these links, but I promise it isn't - I don't even really like it that much

Yeah, that's similar to what I heard about it, but the whole premise feels like a very twisted logic. Considering the fact that when you contract the virus, your body does try to attack it (that's to my knowledge what causes many of the problems, as the virus disguises itself in the lungs, and the immune systems attacks the whole areas of them, including healthy cells).

This plague — the rioting is intensifying to the point where we may not be able to contain it.

I imagine you've been waiting nearly 20 years for this moment.

In theory, if enough people have immunity to a virus, it means that any time the virus enters the population, it'll hit a dead end of people who are immune and thus won't be able to pass it on. So then, if there are people who don't have immunity they won't catch it because the virus is unlikely to reach them.

Details vary for virus to virus. But to give an example, if 90-95% of the population have the measles vaccine, it's very unlikely that the remaining 5-10% of the population will catch it. If everyone who could take the vaccine had it, that 5-10% would be made up only of people who are immunocompromised and thus can't take the vaccine, as well as the small percentage of people who receive the vaccine but don't gain immunity.

It's not a sharp target number though. The larger the percentage of people who have immunity, the less the virus will spread. It's just that a certain point it becomes almost an impossibility.

But that's just context on the concept of herd immunity. In the case of COVID-19, anyone who suggests we should aim for herd immunity right now is willfully ignorant and dangerous. The fact is, we don't yet know that catching COVID-19 even grants you significant levels of immunity, and if it does, how long that lasts. What we do know is that other coronaviruses tend to only have immune responses that last for months, which is not enough to give any real protection. In the case of COVID-19, we know that not everyone who catches it has a measurable immune response; people who have been tested positive while they were sick were then given antibody tests later and came up negative. It is also thought that the many asymptomatic carriers of the virus are less likely to have a measurable immune response, which may mean that they could then catch it again and again and pass it around multiple times.

To summarise; given the number of things we don't know about COVID-19, and given the few things we do know about it, it is clear that the concept of herd immunity through widespread natural infection is likely impossible, and anyone who suggests it is, as I said before, willfully ignorant and dangerous.


And to add to that that anyone who says 'It'll just be a couple of old people who die' is really, completely full of shit. Plenty of young folk have died. And even if the death rate were low (which it isn't), the number of people who have long-term, serious side effects is seriously worrying.

True. This whole Covid-19 is the worst shit of this year. It has given me anxious disappointed feeling how some people treat it like regular flu fever. This thing may leave you with some permanent problems to lungs if you catch it and depending on how your body can take it.

People also have claimed that children won't spread Covid-19 here but cases started happening after schools opened.

Not sure about vaccines that might come here later though. It's just that how much have they tested them before put them public. Some years ago here was vaccines that caused narcolepsy.

Hope you wash hands, disinfect, have distance and stay safe.

Covid brought Kapteeni back to OWF.

I now love covid.

I now love Kapteeni

Honestly, the spreading prevalence of telecommuting is probably the one truly good thing to come out of this pandemic. unless you count kapteeni popping by :spin:

One of my workmates has tested positive after she came back from Cyprus and didnt self isolate. The irony here is things are worse than they were before the lockdown in March. They've reopened the pubs too, except you can only drink outside in the cold Autumn air. I'm also presuming Halloween will be cancelled this year too.

- Trick [cough, cough] or treat!
- I'LL GIVE YOU THE SWEETS, JUST DON'T COME ANY CLOSER

not much point in putting on a scary mask and going out on the 31st when we're already wearing masks every day for over half a year now

on a related note, i seriously wish I had a real life gas mask because this pandemic is the perfect opportunity to wear one casually :(

Woah lots of responses, and we thought the forums were dead :D
Time for me to talk, even if I'm very late to this big party.
Wow thanks for the trust :fuzemb: but even if our country is honestly not one of the best in all Europe, the health system that we have here is one that we can be proud of... at least that's what I'd said before the virus began to spread everywhere.
Health care from the state to the people is taken here as a primary right and duty, so it's also free when it's necessarely needed to prevent any danger to the life of the patient. An article of the constitution (n°32) also says:
This is by far one of the best and good things about health care in Italy. The state has the duty to take care of its people regarding their own health.
Plus, according to a WHO research dating back to 2000, Italy had the second best health system in the world in terms of spending efficiency and access to public care for citizens, after France.
In 2014, according to a ranking prepared by Bloomberg, it was third in the world for spending efficiency.

When the virus started to spread in all Europe I thought "Okay, we will fight this virus, even if it can be difficult, and defeat it in half-year".
Appearently I was very wrong, and I was very surprised. And it still doesn't seem right: we have the best virologists here along France, and the COVID virus family was already well known since the beginning of the century. The structure of this virus wasn't even that complex and neither that different from other COVID family members. So how the hell did this happen?
Did it mutate? No. Does it work in a completely different way? Not really, it has some differences but nothing that theorically experts couldn't handle.

Currently the death toll is 994K, it has risen by more than 100k, almost 200k. If this virus is this serious and more lethal than the death causes you listed, the toll should've been way higher by now. The year has almost ended and according to the numbers the death toll won't probably double (unless we get another surprise...)

You don't understand Varrok's point (like many didn't apperently, I'm not answering to all of you about that because it would take too much time and characters xD): if it's a pandemic then the death toll should've indeed been higher than these simple (yet bad ofc) death causes.

Yet, since most of you don't like smoke death - covid death comparision (and it's understandable), let's compare it with the seasonal flu: The death toll (per year) of COVID-19 is not even higher than the seasonal flu which is from 9 million to 45 million. Do the math and you might consider why people have serious doubts.

Herd immunity is something that we'll reach presumably at the end of the pandemic. Like you said, it is too soon to reach this.
Yet, by looking at COVID-19 virus structure, most of the people immunity system should've kicked the virus away already: it is different from other viruses like the seasonal flu, but it kicks with the same power and therefore if you catch it there's an high chance that your body gives a reasonable immune response, which is fever, cough and/or sneeze (the usual response your body gives to the presence of new pathogens). The difference would be the length of our body response, which means the fever could last longer than excepted.
But are things like fever bad? No, actually it's a good sign: it means your body is trying to kill off the virus (if some of you guys didn't know this, you should, look it up).

Returning to the main topics you were talking about:

• Once we reach for example the 95% of immune people to the virus, yes the virus won't be able to spread like now anymore. Yet it will still exist, nobody has reached the power to totally kill off a virus (and by kill off I mean ceasing its existence), so there will be always a chance for a few people (the 5%) to get it and even die for it. But, it's obvious that the immune people procreate more than the ones that aren't immune. As population grows, the higher will be the percentage of people who are immune. How? With the antibodies we are going to generate. This is the herd immunity, and we'd all say it is too soon to reach but it won't be impossible to reach in the future. But honestly, we should've reached it already or at least a similiar state worldwide (so not with a 95 percentage, but still a high and valid one)
• Regarding the young folk dying too, we should wonder what are the medical histories of these young people dying.
  It is obvious that old people are less capable of generating quickly antibodies to win the first fight their immune system encounter with the virus and gain total wins in the future in case they get the virus again. When it comes to young people... it's a different matter;
  First we should know what were the health and immunity conditions of the mother shortly before their child was born (even when the mother got pregnant):
  Passive immunity is the first form of immunity that a newborn acquires, before and just after birth. The mother's immune system produces antibodies during pregnancy and these, through the placenta, reach the fetus. These antibodies are the immunoglobulins G, and are the only ones that pass through the placenta allowing the transfer of the immune state from the mother to the fetus. It is important to specify that a mother cannot transfer a protection that she does not have: if she has never contracted a certain disease or has not been vaccinated she will not be able to pass specific antibodies regarding that disease to the fetus. And the immunoglobulins I talked disappear after 6-8 months from the birth of the baby, so there's also that.
  So, if for example the mother doesn't easily fights yet seasonal flu (or never did), the baby won't fight it easily either. If the mother wasn't vaccined for a certain disease, the chances of the child to get that disease are very high.
  I presumed when this pandemic started that the first victims of the COVID-19 would be infants and old people.
  My point is: it's reasonable for infants to get infencted at some point. But it becomes complex to understand when it comes to children and teens (so let's say, from 1 year to 16 years old) getting infected. Young people got infected and killed by this virus, we know that. But we have no idea how this happened. Is it because of the weak immunity the young folk had? Or is it for something else that can be extremely revelant to the structure of the virus? We have no clue. And we should've from the medical history of these young people... but we didn't.

We don't have much info regarding the medical history of the patients that were hospitalized during this pandemic and this led to some serious doubts against the medical institutions that took care of this pandemic.
At the end of May, some experts have sent a petition to the goverment in which they ask for an awareness of the resolutions in the light of the evidence on the epidemic which has turned out to be "a form of flu no more serious than other coronaviruses".
A question that they asked themselves without finding answers is why the autopsy examinations were prevented, which turned out, when carried out, to be an irreplaceable source of invaluable information and which made it possible to discover that the main cause of deaths was not the virulence of the disease, but its incorrect treatment.
These experts said: "we trust, in a spirit of sincere collaboration, to receive an answer to our observations, which will allow us to put an end to the dangerous speculations of those who, in the face of so much amateurism, raise the doubt that Covid-19 is being used. for ulterior motives". In case the government and other authorities consulted didn't give an answer within the terms established by law, the doctors said that they would proceed with a complaint. One month later of total silence they did, and I heard no more news from them.

Hold it right there. The permanent problem it can give to lungs is less likely to happen. And yes, such response depends from your body. But how do the lungs fight off things like a virus?
Lungs fight generally pathogens and other irritants from the respiratory tract with coughing and sneezing. So when you have to do one of these two things, you have to do it. Otherwise you're putting barriers to your body fighting off whatever he's trying to kick off. Of course, don't do it near other people and do it with a hanky, but I bet your parents tought you that.
Anyway, when it comes to organs like the lungs not only the antibodies start to work, but also the complement system starts to do its job.
The complement system attacks the surfaces of foreign cells. It contains over 20 different proteins and is so named for its ability to "complete" the killing of pathogens by antibodies. Complement is the major humoral component of the innate immune response.
It triggers the following immune functions:

• Phagocytosis (when a cell ingests a foreign body and destroys it) – by opsonizing antigens.
• Inflammation (which causes cough and such) – by attracting macrophages and neutrophils
• Membrane attack – by rupturing cell wall of bacteria

This should explain it usually works when foreign pathogens attacks our body. Believe it or not, we get attacked constantly.
But to return to the topic of permanent issues we can get regarding the lungs, the thing that has been noticed the most is the possibility of getting pneumonia, which is characterized by inflammation of the pulmonary alveoli, which, by filling with liquid, hinder the respiratory function. Sounds rough doesn't it? Yet generally, oral antibiotics and simple analgesics, some rest, and fluid intake are sufficient to achieve complete recovery from it. When all of this isn't enough, hospitalization is required and in that case it's very much more likely to cure it.
Regarding COVID-19 situation: The lungs are the organs most affected by it because the virus accesses host cells via the enzyme 2 (ACE2), which is most abundant in type II alveolar cells of the lungs. The virus uses a special surface glycoprotein called peplomer (the spinules that give it its distinctive solar corona shape) to connect to the ACE2 receptor and enter the host cell. The density of ACE2 in each tissue correlates with the severity of disease in that tissue and some have suggested that reducing ACE2 activity might have protective effects, while others say that increasing ACE2 using Angiotensin II receptor antagonist drugs may be protective but these hypotheses have yet to be tested. As alveolar disease progresses, respiratory failure (which gives the permanent issues you were talking) may develop and death may follow.
However, the percentage of chance of getting pneumonia due to COVID-19 is... maximum 14% (there isn't a definitive one since the epidemic is still ongoing). The chance of it getting worse is around 5%.

Regarding the vaccines... don't except to get them this soon. Or even worse, don't except to get them at all.
The complexity of this virus is like the seasonal flu, which doesn't have a vaccine yet. Therefore it is equally (not totally though!) difficult to create it.
Generally it takes 2 years to create an effective vaccine that gives you total (not always assured, remember this) immunity to a pathogen. And sadly it can take more time when it comes to a virus, because viruses are more complex pathogens that we still don't completely understand today compared to bacteria.

Regarding vaccines being possibly dangerous... heh, this is where things become very though and, may I say, the conspiracy hits.
There were many cases in the past regarding new vaccines causing terrible damage to the young ones. Like you said, there were cases where they caused things like narcolepsy. The vaccines you were probably referring to was the Pandemrix vaccine against the 2009-2010 swine flu. Researches were made regarding this vaccine and it was found out that were indeed risks of getting narcolepsy or other side effects.

There were also cases where vaccines were probably made when they weren't needed, neither used, but were sold anyway and leading some countries to have serious economic and legal problems. One of these cases that was particularly revelant was a pandemic: the swine flu, yes this again. It's a virus of the H1N1 family, the same that caused the terrific spanish flu in 1918.
It generally hitted pigs, but it also caused a pandemic between 2009 and 2010. In theory, it started with the ingestion of pig meat infected with this virus, which then became transmissible from human to human. The virus had a considerable contagiousness which, however, contrasted with a decidedly low health danger. According to the results of statistical analysis, it can be deduced that the simple seasonal flu produces a number of victims far higher than those caused by the H1N1 virus.

How did we react to it?
In June 2009, the WHO declared the pandemic alarm following the developments in the spread of the virus. The alert level was raised to 6, equal to the maximum of the emergency.
This is how we arrived to that: the WHO, after an emergency meeting held on April 27, had decided to bring the level of pandemic risk from 3 to 4 (on a scale ranging from 0 to 6, go check the levels details for better understanding), and then passed it to fifth on April 29.
In the case of a pandemic, the percentage of contagious people is assessed at a very high level. The United States has declared a health emergency.
On 3 June, the WHO announced that it had raised the alert level to 6, which is at the top of the pandemic scale.
On 11 June, the WHO officially declares the pandemic, when there were at that time 28.774 confirmed cases and 144 deaths worldwide.
On July 14, the WHO itself declared it unstoppable, warning that all countries will have to stock up on the vaccine.

So why am I mentioning this virus?
There have been many allegations to the WHO that their declaration of a pandemic status was at least partly influenced by a desire to increase the profits of the pharmaceutical industry. Now let's go the case of Italy:
In that time, there was the Berlusconi IV Cabinet, which decided to provide co-administration of the A/H1N1 influenza vaccine together with the seasonal influenza vaccine. To this end, it entered into a production contract with Novartis (a Swiss multinational company operating in the pharmaceutical sector that had several legal disputes), which was initially kept secret. The contract was signed between the Director General of the Ministry of Health, Fabrizio Oleari, and the CEO of Novartis Vaccines, Francesco Gulli. The text provides for the supply of 24 million doses of the vaccine, at a cost of 184 million euros, including VAT. Euros that were also ours of course.

The contract was judged penalizing by the Court of Auditors, which accused the government of having accepted clauses too favorable to the company, such as the absence of penalties, the acquisition by the ministry of risks and compensation to the multinational for any losses. Among the halter clauses accepted by the Ministry of Health:

• Novartis is obliged to produce the vaccine doses and to respect the agreement with the Ministry of Health. But only as long as this is deemed "reasonable";
• the government undertakes to compensate for any damage to health caused by the use of the vaccine, keeping Novartis harmless. The multinational is liable only for manufacturing defects;
• if the product is not delivered due to failure to obtain the marketing authorization and positive clinical tests, the Ministry will have to compensate the company with a net lump sum of 24 million euros;
• the packaging is decided by Novartis, and the Ministry is not authorized to make changes to the packaging or to alter, obscure, remove or tamper with the trademark;
• Novartis undertakes to deliver the vaccine by an agreed date, but if it is unable to deliver the product, a communication to the Ministry seven days before the deadline is sufficient to obtain a referral agreed between the parties. And if the ministry is unable to collect the product, Novartis will be able to resell it to other customers or invoice the ministry for what is not collected, with the possibility of reselling it anyway after 90 days;
• the parties undertake to maintain absolute confidentiality on confidential information.

The doses actually produced and delivered by Novartis amounted to 10 million, those used to 900.000. Still in March 2010, several ASLs reported the availability in stock of more than half of the vaccines delivered In Lombardy, only 10% of the doses were administered. The Ministry has begun to plan the withdrawal of unused doses, which according to WHO indications will expire in the summer.

Minister Ferruccio Fazio announced that he wanted to open negotiations with Novartis for vaccines ordered but not yet produced, and to consider the possibility of selling 2.5 million vaccines, 10% of the Italian supply, to the World Health Organization. plus any additional supply resulting from vaccines not used by the regions.
In Italy, by mid-November, about 1.5 million people were affected by the virus, with 70 deaths and 160,000 vaccinated. And we lost lots of money. 184 million euros, including VAT, just to remind you.
So we ask ourselves: why the hell did we buy these vaccines? :spin:
I want to remind you that the deaths caused by this virus weren't even that high, they were really low (lower than the seasonal flu, for example). Yet the WHO declared a 6th level pandemic and highly suggested we needed vaccines, letting the pharmaceutical houses to create vaccines easily with the cost of the states.
Don't call me a conspiracy theorist for this, because this really happened :fuzblink:

Regarding the vaccines against COVID-19, like I said the day to get one is still distant. Yet (here in Italy) some people tested sample of work-in-progress vaccines. Some had effective results (yet not definitive healings), others had side effects.
I'd say tho that the iron regarding this topic is not hot yet. I'm not excepting the best results tho, both economically and medically.

There were also news regarding the tampons, used to find out you are infected or not, that were actually infected with the COVID-19. I was a bit shocked and confused by this but it actually happened here in Italy and in other parts of the world.

Same thing here, but you can also stay inside if you wear a mask the whole time (when you sit down and stay still tho you can take off the masks)

You're kidding? Halloween will be awesome thanks to masks.

we're in a pandemic you moron. i understood Varrok's point perfectly, you can't compare a virus to smoking and shit. give me a fucking break. there's always twonks like you that feel the need to be pedantic about the details. you think the deathtoll should be higher for a pandemic? who cares if the fucking black plague or whatever was more deadly than this shite, it's still dangerous.

i don't think you realize how fucked up it is to have some random virus infecting thousands of people in different countries indefinitely without having any way to stop it other than saying "wear a mask and stay a few feet apart". so please fuck off with your "it's not that serious" bollocks.

Great wall of text by Phoetux. That was quite lecture.

Only thing i heard about Covid-19 is that our defenses tries to over do with the healing in some cases but heh... i'm not expert on this one. :)

Not feeling to take risk with this virus though.

I didn't except this exaggerated response from you :fuzzle: I know we're in a pandemic and it's affecting our lives enormously, that's why I can't wait for all of this to end. The only thing we can do is keep ourselves healthy (with masks, social distance when needed, healthy alimentation and everything else).
When you said that I probably didn't realize how fucked this situation is, believe me, I know. It affected terribly my last year of art school but I thankfully managed to finish it with success; I lost a job 3 days later I got it, because my boss was changing his broken mask with another and got caught by a cop, and because of this his store got fucking closed; everyone was fucking scared and had to take care of their own family (like in my case) and had to get through the economic issues we all had to face, and the goverment promised they would help us by lowering taxes and sending us money... they didn't do any of this. A very few people got the money they deserved and other had to get out of their houses and then get arrested later for being around. And ofc, everyone was scared of dying of this virus or anything else. You think I don't know how fucked up this is?

Plus, I did that comparison between the seasonal flu and the covid not because I'm a "twonk": I did that to understand better Varrok's point and to make you think a little; if the seasonal flu makes more victims than the covid in the span of a year then why weren't we in a pandemic already?
We were doing other stuff instead: take care of our regular health care (keeping yourself clean and protected from random infections, sneeze and cough in a protected way, anything our doctors and parents taught us) and stay home when you get the fever or anything else that might infect others. All of this before the pandemic started ofc.
Meanwhile people were obviously dying of seasonal flu in the hospitals but people didn't actually talked about it, the media didn't actually talk about it and that's why it wasn't such a big deal in the past.
Don't get aggressive MA, this will only make things worse and I don't want you to be like that. Even though I understand your anger.
Thanks, it's the longest post I've made for sure :p I just wanted to put everything I know and think about this whole situation.
Btw you can prevent getting the covid not only by wearing masks but also by incresing your body defense with vitamins, physical activity (I'd suggest to make it limited and at your home, especially because winter is coming) and keeping your own house clean. Improving your immune system defenses can help you resist any type of virus attack (this doesn't make you invunerable to viruses, but it does help). If you don't know much about this stuff you should look it up, it's info that everyone should be taught of.

no, that wasn't an exaggerated response, that was exactly what i was feeling when i responded to your verbal diarrhea. if you're going to talk utter horseshit and claim this virus isn't all that bad then i'm going to call you a fucking moron and move on with my day.

seriously dude, just shut up. i'm not going to fucking debate this with you. if you don't think we're in a pandemic right now then you must be fucking braindead. i mean, literally. i'm honestly staggered that there are people being so dismissive over this crap. personally i've already had two people i know die because they caught this corona shit at a bad time for them which lead to complications so i've been forced to understand that this is very real and dangerous, and people like you quibbling over the details arguing whether it's a real fucking pandemic or not genuinely make me sick. i don't care if it doesn't rate very highly in your Big Book Of Deathtolls, i really truly do not care my petty little friend.

i'm not saying there isn't a media circus, and i'm not saying that covid is as deadly as smallpox, but what i am saying is that it's still dangerous and shouldn't be taken lightly. i don't think that's bad advice. let's take the virus seriously shall we? can we do that guys? is that okay? can we not be stupid dumdums for a moment here? is that good?

and no, this isn't me wanting to go back and forth with you swapping arguments and shit, this is just me telling you that you're fucking stoopid to be arguing about this shit right now. i'm not going to sit here and argue with someone i don't even know about how dangerous covid is. i didn't realize this was a thing, i didn't realize some people had to be spoken to like a little baby and have it explained to them that "corona really is quite bad! you should avoid it! and stop shoving crayons up your arse!". absolutely pathetic.

i know! maybe you should start comparing covid to how many people get eaten by bears every year! after all, that's the real threat! that's the real pandemic, man! you're a fucking donkey.

Phoetux is the second coming of Manco.