Anyone still have strong Brexit opinions?
 

It feels like it's been so long, i remember having very strong remain sympathies and pretty sure i did vote that way but after a time that changed and I'm so indifferent now.

In retrospect my belief for remain actually being good for the UK was more tied to this concept of the EU being 'those blokes who did the human rights act so how could they possibly be bad!!' despite you know.. human rights abuses in the EU and no real effort i know of to improve human rights with people they trade with coughchina... I wasn't just a dedicated remainer tho, generally i just thought the referendum itself was a bad idea cus most people in the UK don't even know how their own fucking system works even on a basic level, i dont mean that to be disparaging or anything cus you know, that was me too and plenty of people i know! So i guess i just defaulted to 'status quo'? But yeah. It's just ridiculous to have thought a population that doesnt get taught as part of the curriculum how to engage in politics to suddenly be able to engage with one of the most esoteric institutions out there.

That's my hot take on the immensely tiring topic of brexit, what's urs? #EducationForTheMassesPlz

That's the average Joe's opinion of EU. People don't really dig deeper into that, for, as you said:
It's not just UK. And it's basically people's fault. The government in EU has no interest telling people to inform themselves, as they might come up with a different conclusion than they want.

My country (Poland) is not an economically strong country, and wasn't when it joined EU either, so it is rather a good deal. Not flawless, but it's profitable.

I wouldn't honestly say that it's such a great deal for a much wealthier country, like UK.

All those things considered, if you ask me whether I'm for or against Brexit, you'll have to specify whether I'd be talking from my country's perspective or your country's.

Weird to hear that's the average person's understanding haha, my experience has been mostly just people actively not wanting to talk about it or being staunchly for one or the other, i can believe that's probably the case outside my town/social group tho.

I just kind of opened this up as a general thing really, was curious about how someone's opinion on it might have changed and how since the referendum, if you wanna breathe life in to the dead forum and share your deeper brexit opinions and how they might've changed if they did i'm open to reading them!

I mean, I don't have solid data, as I didn't do statistics about it nor ask every single person in UK, but I've seen a few videos where people did surveys about Brexit, and saw a couple of manifestations and those pro-Remain seemed just like that. I can really see that as being the general mentality behind Remain voters, as back when Poland was joining EU around 2004 I felt the similar way.

I was a kid then, though.

Yea of course! D/w i'm here for opinions i'll take any stats and statements with a pinch of salt and look in to it if i feel it shaping my world view etc lmao, it does make sense on the surface, when ppl, as far as i'm aware, dont really have the education to be as staunchly pro something as they appear to be, it's probably gonna be off the back of the public/historical reputation of that thing, gotta be happening somewhere to some degree and the human rights act is up there as one of more well known things about the EU so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ possibility!

I can tell you this:

Although many of people here didn't have strong Brexit opinions, most of them were pro OWFxit.

I was pretty strongly remain but now I couldn't really care less. I can see both sides of the argument, all I know is that I'm prepared for the eventuality that we leave with no deal, and the subsequent chaos that will cause.

@varrok Is OWFxit what we call the discord migration now ��

@STM there anything in particular you'd point to that helped that shift in perspective u think? Yeah just seeing martial law as even an option for no deal is more than a little concerning, rip UK we had a good run maybe

I wouldn't say so, the majority of active users (nowadays) joined OWF through the Discord. I meant just getting a life and leaving.

I would say in the last couple years I've shifted my political beliefs from democratic socialism to marxism. I believe that bourgeois politics is unimportant insofar as the general public is incapable of informing on policy decisions. Brexit is a battle between the various falanges of British capital, there's no scenario where the proletariat 'wins', whether we stay or leave. Therefore, I care little, I assume there will be a massive decrease in the standard of living we're accustomed to but hopefully that will increase political consciousness amongst the proletariat.

I hope you're not gonna turn into a tankie 😰

I try to have strong opinions but its like trying to set fire to a damp match.

I don't even have strong bowel movements.

can't imagine they're much weaker than whatever passes for democracy in the uk
that was an on-topic post right

That was, indeed, an on topic post.

The conversation is getting interesting now.

I like it when we post on topic because the alternative is not good.

Off topic is never the correct post. I can only assume that everyone will agree.

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How's things man?

So tempted to give OANST an infraction, for old time's sake.

Brexit is a textbook example of why direct democracy is a terrible form of government.

There's so many Adhere-s, that for a second I thought my uBlock was off.

I tried to posrep you, but it's too soon, man. Too soon.

You know why.


What happened to you?

Everything.

do elaborate

he stopped being a dog and became a man

I think I've read that story.

I've definitely seen it illustrated on e621

The jokes on you, Havoc. After Brexit, when the Union is dissolved and the stolen counties are repatriated, when a cool wind disperses the lingering fog that sits heavy upon the barren, salted earth of the home counties, when the Walled City of London finally falls and the good British people can muster nought but a grumble at it all...we'll go back to fucking feudalism. Who'll be laughing then, eh?

Isn't that basically the inevitable end game of anarchism as a movement?

vote ukip

Stop trying to get us to vote for Pokemon.

Not at all, anarchy is governance without hierarchy. Feudalism is a socio-economic system with a complex hierarchy that derives from a monarch.

I didn't ask what anarchy is, I pointed out where it would lead...

Feudalism is a socioeconomic mode of production specific to a time and place in history; an evolution out of the collapse of the Roman Empire. To suggest it would re-emerge out of anarchy is to ignore the historical materialism of how feudalism came to be, not to mention that left-anarchism is founded upon the abolition of value form and the commodity.

Human history shows that whenever possible, a small group of people will do anything they can to gain as much power as they can over as many other people. It's obviously true in the capitalist system that we currently have. If you abolish value and commodity and governmental rules and all that shit, things may be pleasant for a generation or so, but slowly some folk will accumulate power. Because there is only local community organisation, old-school feudalism will inevitably return.

And the ironic thing is that men will continue to retain as much power as possible, even when the planet that hosts him is dying under his own feet. We are consumed by greed, until death. And this will lead us to tragic eras, like the Middle Ages.
Anarchy is just a quick way to resolve all problems, but its consequences would lead to more chaos eitherway. It's not the best solution.

Yes we have historically had ruling elites on one scale or another since the neolithic agricultural revolution, that was the easiest method at the time to ensure that nascent city states producing surplus food could maintain control over their resources. It's likely that a warrior elite slowly formed simultaneously, and then over time that elite morphed into a ruling class. From that moment on--without going into any detail--if we hold historical materialism to be true, the material conditions of existing societies was the driver of how we have progressed as a species, rather than merely that history is a result of periodic ideologies.

I think anarchism has it's own issues, it's not my personal ideology although I flirted with it for a year or so, however the fundamental end goal of anarchism is the same as communism--a society devoid of class, value form and the production of commodities fundamentally. There are greedy people on this earth, because the potential for greed exists. In a hypothetical scenario where communism is established on a global scale, the ability to act on any greed (supposing that greed is human nature and not a learnt trait, which is not what I believe personally) will be diminished, if not abolished. Communism is founded upon a planned economy until such a time as we can abolish work itself and automate production (that's something for another discussion). We will produce what we need and no more. There will be no incentive to be greedy because everyone will be comfortable. There will be nothing to take because everything will be given. It is a fundamentally new mode of production, and all the ways in which one can excel through individualism in capitalism will simply be ineffectual under communism.

The biggest threat to a stateless society will come not in a generation after it has been formed, but in its nascent stage, when reactionary behaviour by those who benefitted the most under capitalism seek to return us to the status quo. That is the reason that every communist revolution has--to date--failed. Either the regime tasked with protecting the revolution has crumbled under external pressure (as in Burkina Faso), or the vanguard has consolidated power and formed a new bureaucratic class to disestablish the old capitalist elite, which in itself causes a degenerated workers state (as in the USSR and China).

What you say is true, but in the longer term any society must have a process in place to maintain itself while also allowing gradual changes to keep up with social mores. An anarchist society won't have those rules, so it will be impossible to maintain.

Anarchy isn't a society devoid of rules; it's a society where rules are made by consensus and authority comes from the civic, rather than hierarchy.

I........ think you just described democracy. How's that working out?

Nah, in a democracy the authority comes from the hierarchy, it just pretends not to.