Sex Free Passports
 

Take a read of this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...nsgenders.html

What is your opinion on this?

I think its nice that they are taking this into consideration for transgender people but I just feel that it will make things worse as it will result in a piece of information on a person missing, which might result in idiots managing to take advantage of it and commit some sort of crime.

I think for sake of security, these people need to put the traumatic experience of writing a four or six letter word on a sheet of paper behind them. If you look like a woman post op, that's what you are and vice-a-versa surely?

Meanwhile, gay marriage is still illegal in several states. Priorities.

Transgender does not equate to transsexual. Also what security risks?

The article isn't talking about American passports. The UK is going to have legal marriage for gay people introduced by 2015. Both wings agree with it.

I was shocked that gay marriage wasn't legal already. I mean I can understand Christian's and Muslims not doing it because well...they believe it's wrong, but non-religiously. Very odd.

And WoF they are both similar, and seriously? What security risks? "No I'm not a terrorist, that person was man, I'm wearing a wig...err, I have long hair. Etc," sort of a basic and somewhat stupid analogy but it proves the basis of the problem.

I think what STM's trying to say is that a person's gender is probably the most common and immediate ways of identifying a person. If that field is constantly 'subject to change', as it were, it could make tracking a person difficult when really necessary.

Bzz WRONG. It's the difference between sexual identity and gender identity, which is a pretty big difference.
If faking a passport photo and other information is so easy (In your opinion) what makes you think faking one word would be so hard? It's a triviality.

You'd assume, and hope, the home office would keep tabs on who has special passports, what their initial identity was and what it is now. And it's not like passports are the only means of tracking people.

Oh, I know it wasn't for US. I was just making a point that the US is fucking stupid.
I'm not sure how incredibly meaningful this particular thing is in the grand scheme though.

Looks like it's time to grow my hair and crossdress.

At last! I can get a passport without having to have sex with anybody.

The Dungeon door is open, MM...

Alas, I have taken a vow of chastity until my true love returns.

Bliss is so fleeting.

I don't see a problem. Why not?

I don't really think it's a big move against discrimination for our sisterly brothers and brotherly sisters, but I can't really see any reason against it except on purely financial reasons. Which may or may not exist depending on how beaurocratically the Home Office goes about this.

I guess if it helps subdue the feelings of discrimination for a small group of people, it did some good.

In slightly more meaningful news, Don't Ask Don't Tell is now history.

Expect the number of gay beatings in the US army to rise considerably...

Surely when you have a penis you are a man and if you have a vagina you are a woman? I do not see why this has to be made overly complicated.

Step 1: You are a man.

Step 2: You get a sex change.

Step 3: You are now a woman.

Step 4: You ask for it to be changed in your papers.

Step 5: ???

Step 6: Profit!

I don't get the reasoning behind leaving it open? :S

Quite a lot of men who identify as women and vice versa don't want to go through the trauma of sexual reassignment.

In that case you're still biologically a man and should thus be marked as such in official documents.

I don't go around bitching that I want to change the height in my passport because I'm not happy with how tall I am. Even if I would go around wearing pumps every single day, it wouldn't change my actual height and thus it shouldn't be changed on an official document.

Oh Havoc...

Yes?

So if I read it correctly Havoc,

If you have a penis you are still a man?

Wouldn't that be confusing to see a picture of what appears to be a woman on a passport to be labeled a man?

It never seemed to bother Bon Jovi.

Also Visual Kei.

Well this is good news for Stranger at least.

Call me politically incorrect but I wouldn't identify a persons sex based on what they identify as but rather what they are biologically. The only reason one could feel male or female is because society has defined what it is to be a male or a female; to me if they still have testicles/ovaries they are still their respective sex. Wouldn't this be much akin to letting furriers identify as their respective species?

Not in the slightest. Just no. No no no.

Seriously.

What is wrong with you?

Furries identify as a species and see themselves as thus rather than a human...

There's a big line between identifying as a girl when you're a boy and identifying as a fox when you're a human. It's really not comparable.

As a note, there's an even bigger line between that and identifying as your favourite mythical being of choice, but the less said about that, the better.

How is it not comparable? In both instances someone identifies as something they're not.

Havoc raised a good point...

Because there is no scientific way to become more like an animal, but transgender people can become only a few hairs short of their sex of choice with the proper changes physically and hormonally.

Who are you to say what they are and what they are not?

Gender identity in psychology is a very very complex and intricate topic. It's not so simple as simply sexual assignment.

Take an obvious example: A transvestite. They like wearing women's clothes obviously, but they must sexually identify as being a man otherwise they'd have no penis. What about a stay at home father who does it out of want rather than necessity?

I don't identify with being a male at all. Not in the slightest. I don't like anything that is typically considered manly, I don't get on well with other men and I love female company and have interests and desires considered feminine. I'm not sure that I would go as far to say I identify as being female (Though I have three good friends who would) and I certainly don't care enough to have my passport changed, but I'm certainly hesistant to identify at all as male.

Also on a lighter note I'd like to wear female clothing.

Think on that.

And try not to retch.

EDIT: On a serious note I had my very close transgender friend read through this topic and he said I should make mention that gender roles are entirely a social construct. He's a postgraduate student studying sociology with an academic and vested interest in gender roles.

Also I would totally have mentioned that sooner if I wasn't horrifically ill and drowsy from these cold tablets.

Bleh

You have testicles? You produce sperm? Then you are a male.

Exactly. If gender roles are entirely social construct than your friend only identifies as a male because she exhibits characteristics deemed by society to be masculine.

One's sex is a biologically determined. It has nothing to do with societies perception of their interests.

I'm pretty sire I made clear the DISTINCTION between SEXUAL and GENDER identification in my previous post.

You're sort of ignoring the foundational point.

Having testicles makes you biologically male. Not psychologically male.

No I didn't.

Psychologically people are themselves. They may have some tendencies that are commonly associated with the opposite sex but it doesn't make of thus sex.

So which one should be printed on official documents then? The one you born with, or the one you're perceived as by society? Because the last one opens up a gigantic can of worms for every other identity field on official documents.

Should a woman who makes it a habit of lying about her age, had plastic surgery, and is thus perceived as being much younger than she really is, get to change the birth year in her passport? No. She was born in that year, regardless of how old she looks now. Just like a transgender was born a man/woman and will remain such unless they undergo surgery to remove the very features that defines a man/woman. Until that time there is no reason to, for the sake of official documents and establishing identity, change (or leave empty) the gender title on a passport because nothing has in fact changed.

For the sake of clarity, a simple (TG) for TransGender (or something) behind the sex should clear up any issue there is with this. It makes it clear to any customs official that the person standing infront of them is officially a man but doesn't consider themselves to be a man and thus looks like a woman. Problem solved.

There are not two sexes, and there are not solid barrier between any sex. That the vast majority of people fall squarely in two sets is irrelevant. Anything that recognizes this is to the betterment of everyone.

This is a response to Moxco, there's just too damn much to quote to put here.

Anyway

So if a man went through the trouble of becoming a woman to the extent that he even got surgery, does that make him a man just because he lacks ovaries etc...

If a heterosexual man saw this person and identified this person as a woman and even felt a sexual attraction to that person before knowing what they were, doesen't that add up to being a woman aswell?

If they knew that the person was originally a man then it might put some people off, but the point is, that heterosexual man would have identified that person as a woman which is I suppose is what all trans people want.

It's a minor point on top of what others have said, but a difference between furries and trans people is that a furry does not transition towards being a fox, living the fox lifestyle, walking on four legs and catching rabbits to eat. A trans person may well transition to the appropriate sex completely, behave and think like their adopted sex and be accepted by society as such.




My initial thought on reading the title of this thread was to think that it was strange to make a major change to support such a tiny section of the population. But when I thought about it for a minute, I could not think of even one reason why sex needs to be listed on the passport. So, assuming that all the security agencies are fine with it, I support this plan.

BUT IT MAKES THEM THAT GENDER IF THEY THEMSELF IDENTIFY WITH IT

OH DEAR GOD MAN