Heaven is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark
 

So, Stephen Hawking has dismissed the idea of heaven, saying that it "is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark." Before he has kind've tip-toed around the idea of God, saying that if God existed, he existed outside of our universe and couldn't actually affect anything within our universe.

He has also recently said that no divine force was needed for the creation of our universe, rather tiny quantum fluctuations in a very tiny universe sowed the seeds for the universe we have today.

So. Science or Religion?

I don't believe in an afterlife. I don't think that a book written thousands of years ago, not even by the apostles, should dictate my life nor should it tell me what to expect after I die.

I also find it very difficult to believe that the big bang didn't happen and that someone created everything, including fossils just for the lulz. And despite not truely understanding the quantum physics involved in the big bang, I believe the lay version alot more than the creationist version.

- Rexy

Oh boy, another religion thread. I can already tell I'll be leaving the forums again before the fifth page.

I'm a Satanist, which is a dramatic way of saying that I'm an asshole.

Science, because possibility of doubt in the material world does not entail doubt. Just because God could exist gives me no reason to believe in Him.

Science.

Probably because I'm more interested in facts and evidence than tall-tales.

I still believe Jesus Christ did in fact exist, but I don't believe he was the son of God. Maybe he was an alien.

Maybe.

I actively believe that God does not exist. It's possible that that is a position that can only be taken by someone who previously did believe that God exists.

That said, I think that phrasing the question as 'Religion vs. Science' is lacking subtlety. Just because the loudest religionists claim that Science is a massive conspiracy designed to subjugate them, doesn't mean they all do. They're a vocal minority at best. There are plenty of religious people out there who have no problem with the Big Bang and evolution.

I just phrased it that way as it seemed to sum up the point and expressed the sentiment easily. There is no definate right or wrong answer and of course there are shades of grey. Even the Pope has said that the events of genesis probably aren't actually how the universe started, but that God was still behind the big bang.

There are also beliefs about science being a social construct. There are people who vehemently oppose science, as well as religion.

- Rexy

Ho boy, this will not end well.

I am a Roman Catholic ergo I believe strongly in the LORD God and his son Jesus Christ.

However that does not mean I understand him or his working and I cannot comprehend creation as depicted in Genesis, rather it was more likely God created the Big Bang and the creation depicted in the Bible is a metaphor written for people of simpler times.

You don't get to suddenly decide it's a metaphor. Admit it, you're making shit up, and twisting the words of the Bible because every day, the reality of the situation is made clearer and clearer:

You are insignificant.

Alcar...

Hmm, well no, you see that's the great thing, I actually do get to decide that it's a metaphor. I believe in God.

I am significant in his eyes.

I wasn't directing my post at you specifically. It's a common phrasing and one that gets on my nerves whenever I hear it.

Just like everyone else.

Believing in something allows you to determine the nature of reality? Forgive us if that doesn't convince anyone.

So after thousands of years of the Bible being understood literally, it is now interpreted as a metaphor? So what you're saying, is that what's written in the Bible is worth it's weight in shit.

It no longer matters what was written. You make up your own rules, and you believe what you want.

That's not adhering to religious beliefs, that's delusion wrapped in arrogance.

Alcar...

Well when God returns to the Earth on judgement day, perhaps he'll issue a second edition for us.

And Max, you believe in the Big Bang right? Care to explain who that worked? You can parody it straight into Genesis for goodness sake.

Second? Pffft. My seventh edition high school Physics textbook shits all over that.

Alcar...

According to your religion, the Bible is already in its second edition. It's well overdue for a third, in my opinion. Maybe Mohammed was right then.

Who that worked what?

Sorry, I meant how, how did the Big Bang happen? I mean for goodness sake, there was once a lonely atom, and it one day (doh wait no time) decided it was bored and it exploded, magically it has so much energy that it somehow magically created itself more times than we can count.

As far as I know, Physics doesn't have a definitive answer for that question yet. But a lack of an answer doesn't mean that there is no answer, or that it is proof that something supernatural must fill the gap.

That said, BM is probably going to post in here and explain everything on a level that I completely don't understand.

Now let me take what you said and use it for my own argument.

As far as I know, religion doesn't have a definitive answer for the creation yet. But a lack of an answer doesn't mean there is no answer, or that it is proof of something scientific must fill the gap.

That said, Lord Stanley is probably going to post here and explain everything on a level that I completely don't understand.

^ this last sentence made me laugh.

So you've decided to completely ignore Genesis, too?

Once again, you've desecrated the Bible.

Alcar...

I'll tell you what, let's now do a little experiment, I'm an atheist, while other people see perfect evidence in your existence Alcar, I no longer believe in you. You don't exist and for the remainder of this topic I am no longer going to answer you or your posts because you don't exist. In fact, who am I speaking to?

But wait, I'm not childish/ atheist so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you do in fact exist, Alcar you desecrated on Steven Hawking if you don't believe in what every crack pot scientist tells us how the Universe started.

Basically, what Alcar said. Religion (or at least your religion) has very clear views on creation. If you think otherwise, you simply haven't bothered to research your own belief system enough.

The difference between your post and my post is that what is known about the Big Bang is known to a high level of confidence in its accuracy. The Bible has no proof other than itself. That's fine for religion, but doesn't hold up to this sort of debate.

You... you can't be serious?

You are free to choose not to believe I exist. But there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. Can't say the same about your sky fairy.

Alcar...

Scientists reckon the world is billions of years old.

Christians reckon the world is a few thousand years old.

One of these is not true.

If.

I'm open minded on whether or not there is an afterlife since nobody can actually tell us if there really is one.

But as we have clearly seen on this forum a few times, religion causes nothing but arguements. Personally I think when religion first came about many many many many years ago people were more open minded and did believe what the bible told them simply because they didn't have the knowledge of the world that we have today, from there the word of the bible would pass down through each generation until people started to realised that what the bible says is just too ridiculous to be believeable.

Don't get me wrong. Religions have good messages to be nice to people ETC but when things like god and power come into it. It just gets absurd.

Maybe you reincarnate as someone else.

That's my guess, anyway. Heaven and hell seems absurd to me, but everyone's open to their own assumption.

Ok, these arguments are stupid and always dissolve into petty name calling and arguing whose idea is the bestest. I can't convince but I can have my way. As the only active Christian here who is a regular poster, I am the only one to front my argument, no me, no topic. So STM out, bitch about me behind my back or find someone who cares because I'm not going to give any of you the benefit of conversation.

No, I just don't intend to partake in trivial escapades.

I haven't seen any petty name calling.

Maybe if I called you delusional and brainwashed.

Alcar...

Guys, please.

We can all agree I'm the closest thing to God there is.

I'll take reproducible scientific results over the stories in just another random book written thousands of years ago, any day.

And since Alcar, Nate and Max took the liberty of dealing with STM and thus stealing my job, I'll just leave it at that.

Everyone seems to be ganging up on STM. Unfairly so, I think. Despite some of his arguments being a little... Ridiculous and childish.

STM, if you're still reading (which I doubt), how do you interpret different areas of the bible? Do you find yourself sticking very rigidly to things that have been written (no sex before marriage, no lying, no cheating, etc.) or do you use it as more of a guideline to your life?

I'm not really sure what I think about the Church's view on Genesis being a story, but the view of God and the bible does change depending on the times and the "fashion" of the bible. 100 years ago people concentrated more on the hellfire and brimstone, nowadays people concentrate on the loving, benevolent God. And as such, interpretations of the text change.

What does everyone think about the idea of an afterlife?

- Rexy

I will comment on the idea of an afterlife because it is a different topic but I will not answer your questions here Rexy, if you are generally interested PM and I will tell you personally but no one else need know for risk of further argument.

I believe in Heaven, Hell and maybe Purgatory, I do not attempt to understand these realms but perhaps they are as stated in the Divine Comedy? I doubt it but I generally couldn't comment. I am intrigued as to how the Buddhists view the afterlife, I think it's very interesting.

^^^

This. I think it's bad form for the mods and especially the owner to be so unneutral.

I want it to be true, but because there's no clear reasons for me to favour any one interpretation over another I'll carry on living my life how I sit fit. Plus, I believe in personal integrity and carrot and stick afterlife violates that.

Maybe you just rot in the hole.

My dad was never the best at telling me the truths of the world.

Honestly I don't see anyone ganging up on anyone... Some people call religion fairy tale and others say science is a lie.
Religion is what people make it. In the end, people just want to believe SOMEthing... So i don't actually see anything wrong wrong in making shit up about the bible. I could call myself a christian and make up an entirely new belief. That only means that I wouldn't be believing in what traditional christians believe... Meaning I'd be quite alone in my belief despite the label.
But honestly It's still just one person making shit up to substitute their existence.
I wish religion was more interesting and less restricting though. Like Voodoo :-D

Anyway personally I just stopped caring. An afterlife just seems too good to be true.
But I think if there is an afterlife it's nothing like any of us ever imagine. Also in an afterlife, which part of us would follow? If we have a soul it would no longer be confined by the body/brain and that means we'd perceive existence in a very different way. Honestly I find that thought scary. We would no longer feel the same way, think the same way.

... I don't like the thought of afterlife. On the other hand, nonexistence scares me too. What would that be like? What does it mean x_x Does it just mean that things go on as usual, but our perception of it is lost forever? My brain hurts :(

But we don't know the truth that's the thing. A lot of people would like there to be a afterlife, me included, thankfully I believe in it and I know it exists but err, I suppose there's always worry and doubt.

Just FYI arrogant statements like these are why people are ganging up on you.

You don't know shit, you just admitted that in the same post. There's a difference between belief and knowledge.

As much as an afterlife sounds cool, I don't think it's going to happen/exist.
I always thought that when a person dies, they go to sleep forever, but that was when I was 8-9. I still think sleeping sounds awesome though. No jobs or work or anything to worry about.