Killing for curiousity: What makes a monster?
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ll-shot-baboon

So, complete monster or 'harmless' bemusement?

I'd rather say a worthless SOB. Now, I have nothing against hunting, if it,s following certain rules and done with a little more respect for the animal you're hunting (I've been a hunter myself). But mindless killing like this, just for fun and knowing what it feels like to take a life, is despicable.

He admitted himself he had no reason t do it, other than "just for fun". So, if he had no excuse, why frickin' do it???
That kind of person makes me sick.

Maybe he should also get shot, y'know, "just for fun". :fuzemb:

I don't have either the time or the inclination to accurately describe how I feel about this. Sooo.... Man, what a dick.

But seriously, that's fucking disgusting.

Shooting animals for fun is wrong. End of. The baboon did nothing to him, so why kill it?
I'm all for trying new things, but shooting a monkey to get a sense of killing a person? NURSE! THE STRAIGHTJACKET!

despicable. its funny how people who only see killing in films and news reports want to do it for themselves, and go on to brag about it if they do, but those who have had to do it or do it for their job don't even like talking about it. they have more respect, and in some cases force themselves to live with the guilt.

the blokes that work the meat wagons and visit farms to cull livestock generally look a mess. a number of different characters i knew that did this job had a few problems, some caused by the job, others were apparent before they took that line of work up. i found out that a number of my friends that did this work either had depression (or felt depressed) which sparked during the time they had the job, were generally unnerving and 'not right' in the sense that you didn't trust them with the gun, which became apparent when they would shoot the animal with you standing next to it without warning, and others seemed to have fell into it on hard times.

one chap almost broke down on the yard when i told him he had to cull a bull calf. he even tried to get me to do it. that's true. it isn't good for you, so someone who kills animals for fun has never had to do it, i feel, therefore doesn't appreciate the beauty of life. of any living animal. they do it for pleasure, knowing they wont have to clean up the mess afterwards and can go home to a drink. also, they don't have to do it about 30+ times a day.

Ah, mollucks assistant. Your farmer knowledge is truly enlightening. Where would we be without you?

Hehe, Dalai Farmer.

last time i posted something like that i got a load of "you're an evil bastard and i hate you. you make me feel sick" etc. fucking annoying how narrow-minded people can be.

What? You're spewing a load of peace and love about respecting animal life. What objection have people got to that?

Someone has to have the balls to kill Bessie, so that I don't have to.

I'm going to assume "U KILLZ TEH ANIMALZ! U IZ A HYPOCRITE!!1!"

I have a problem with killing animals for fun. But not with what MA does. Doing that every day must really give you a respect for life.

I realise the word 'spewing' may make it seem like I'm being sarcastic. I genuinely agree with MA.

Just to clarify, according to that report he did it out of curiousity, not fun.

That makes him even more dangerous.

I don't really agree with hunting, but here in Pennsylvania, deer hunting is not only a sport but extremely necessary to the ecosystem. It's more of a form of culling really. We have so many fucking deer that they strip the forests clean of all edible grasses, and the forest can't grow back fast enough to keep up with their birthrate. Many deer starve to death under these conditions, so they're doing a bit of a favor by shaving down the numbers. Hitting them with cars helps too, though this is not nearly as affective as you often only hit one per month.

Twisted fun-fact: Given the volume of rednecks and taxidermist shops in the area just outside of the city, its not uncommon to see a deer that got hit by a car lying on the side of the road decapitated. Thats right. They go out and cut the head off of the deer to keep as a trophy. I could understand if whomever actually hit the deer did this, but the carcass sometimes sits there for two, three days before someone comes along and jugulates it.

As for hunting furry animals, I don't really care. Hunting for amusement, I find, is stupid and unnecessary, but I'm not the type to be arsed enough to get up and protest. Rabbits and deer actually kind of piss me off, so if you have to shoot them, then whatever. I seem to have more respect for the so-called "unlovable" animals such as frogs, snakes, bugs, etc. I see a dead cat or raccoon on the road and my response is "meh", but I see a flattened toad or snake and I feel strong remorse.

That's the point of hunting, it's not for the thrill of shooting something. You go there to be in the forest, see an animal with your own two eyes. If you actually shoot one, you've helped in regularizing the animal population. If you didn't shoot one, well, you've had som contact with nature.

I actually think that anyone who is mad after a hunt because he didn't kill anything is a douche. Sure, it's great to take a deer with you, that means more meat to fill your fridge but coming back empty-ended is not dramatic.

What a creep. He didn't even eat it.

I don't like hunting mostly- as the "its done for cullnig" argument is bullshit 90% of the time. Most people hunt for fun.

This guy sounds dangerous. Killing forcuriosity suggests he could well move on to people. Plus what he did is horrible. I've done some reserach and study on baboons, apes, monkeys etc. as part of Psychology. They're extremely intelligent creatures. It appears the lack of a voicebox- and thus lack of true intercommunication with animals- is why people often justify taking a creature's life.

Agreed. 100%

The culling wouldn't even be necessary if someone hadn't already shot all of their natural predators.

I want to rip his head off and shit down his neck.

Mankind: fucking with irony since time immemorial.

Whether or not the hunter knows that it's a form of culling is irrelevent. How many of you actually live in Pennsylvania? Hands!

Mhm, thought so.

I'm not defending hunters, but I've lived here long enough to know there is a serious problem with deer overpopulation. Even living only a mile outside of city limits, you're prone to see one deer a day (dead or alive) minimum. They don't use the culling argument as a means to attract people to the hunting market, in fact I doubt half the good ol' boys that do the deed in this area can even spell "culling".

As for the deer's "natural predators", this isn't the outback, and there weren't a fuckload of large carnivorous animals out here to begin with (which is partly why the deer population migrated here from the north).

Aha... please explain? I sense hypocrisy...

I imagine by "respect for the animal", he means putting the whole animal to good use. Meat, horns, pelt as something more than a "trophy".

I love how his defense is "I know I'm a fucking retard, but it was still totally justified."

Die in a fire, Gil.

That and the fact that you don't actually care if you get one or not. There is no hypocrisy, as Havoc said, a hunter saying he still have respect for his preys is not bull-shitting. I'd say the rules about hunting are a form of respect, by respecting rules that are established, you hunt only a certain quota of animals and thus, are not depleting their race.

Anyway, it's always good to use as much of the animal as you can, instead of wasting the parts. Personally, during my hunting time I kept the meat. The only reason I didn't do anything with the rest was because I didn't know what to do with it or didn't have the skills/knowledge/money to make anything out of the pelt and the horns. I wouldn't actually wear deer-skin shoes.

I do admit mankind has deprived most herbivores of their natural predators. that's one good enough reason for hunting to exist, since hunters are basically making compensation for the predators that aren't there anymore. Hunters aren't assassins more than people who work in slaughterhouses.

If he really must know what it feels like, I'd rather him shoot the baboon than shoot me, but before he went out and took an innocent live, he should have contacted me. I have a handful of people at my old High School who I would have gladly put in the firing line.

Don't get how making use of the animal shows respect for the animal. Implies they're designed to be nothing but our tools.

It's a difference of personal opinion and I doubt either of us will change each other's mind, but in my mind, you respect the animal by not hunting it. And hunters are much more assassins than slaughterhouse workers- as MA said the latter usually feel reluctance and remorse. Plus hunters aren't required to kill.

The difference is simple: Animals in the wilderness have more chance to survive than animals in a slaughterhouse, since deers for example, are in their natural territory and you gotta have a good aim. And chances are you'll miss and the deer can go away. It happened once, the first one I ever shot in my life: The bullet scratched it and it got away. How could a slaughterhouse animal do that? The place is so much controlled (normal, I know, since they are made to provide food), the animals don't have a single chance to get away alive.

And what makes you believe slaughterhouse employees have remorse and reluctance? If they hate killing animals so much, what's stopping them from getting another job? Maybe there's reluctant/remorseful people in slaughterhouses, but surely there's not that much, since I don't remember having witnessed lacks of processed meat because of a lack of employees.

about using parts. Okay, maybe using every part isn't especially respectful but is putting the pelt, horns and everything else in a dumpster is better?

And I think if there wasn,t a single hunter in the whole world, that would be unrespectful to the animals, as said, we already depleted the natural predators and now the herbivores could eventually deplete the food ressources and starve. And I'm pretty sure starving is more painful than a bullet through the lungs. Maybe if we stayed primitive beings who only hate plant food and still lived in caves, then yeah, there wouldn't have to be hunters and slaughterhouses. But that's not our current reality.

And I think anyone who would find hunters despicable should just stop eating meat althogetter, if they haven't already did. Slaughterhouses aren't better than hunting. I think one thing that could be respect for animals is, if you have to kill it, give it a quick, painless death, because I saw videos of things that happen in slaughterhouses and believe me, I think my bullet through the lungs is not that bad. And don't ask for a link, I don't remeber where I saw this and it's too disgusting anyway.

So just because you're not performing a mass animal genocide it makes it okay to just kill one? Just because you mutter a short 'With all due respect' before you pull the trigger it suddenly makes it different? I'm sorry but that's major bullshit.

You're using all the parts? So instead of going to the store and buy your meat there you insist on killing just one more animal for the heck of it. Yes we need to kill to live, that's why we have slaughterhouses in the first place. We don't need jackasses like you who think they can do a better job by going out hunting their own meat and wasting half of it. I don't care if you reuse every single part, it doesn't make it right. Following that logic I could shoot you in the face and as long as I sell your flesh at some WWII style butcher shop and use your bones for my Halloween decoration next year, I am totally justified in killing you because I did it with respect, right? Heck, killing humans would probably be more okay then killing animals, we're in the billions, what's the population of deer these days?

Don't try to act as if hunting innocent animals is doing something good for the planet. I have not a single ounce of respect for hunters who think they are 'all that' because they are able to carry a powerful gun into a forest. I'd like to see you try and kill a deer with your bare hands, make it a fair fight as long as you insist on hunting your own meat. I put 200 dollars on the deer.

I don't agree with the guy killing a Baboon just for the heck of it.

I don't agree with people saying hunters are evil.

And I certainly fucking do not agree with Havoc's fucking BS about an animal life equaling a human life. Get the fuck out of here with that fucking bullshit.

Roughly 1,500,000 in Pennsylvania alone.
What about elephant culling, Havoc? Whats your standpoint on that?

You're being rather aggressive...

Anyway if you eat meat you have no right in hating hunters. None at all. Just because you don't hunt yourself, you still support the animal-killing that happens in this world...

And what? Are slaughterhouse animals less entitled to live than free animals? You're a hypocrite.

Anyway I don't really mind hunting as long as the whole animal is put to use or if the person needs to hunt for food.
I mean, I don't see a difference between buying meat and hunting meat. It all ends up the same way: in someone's stomach.

Also animals are not equal to humans. I have humans that I love.. I loved my kitty but he's gone now.
But I do hate people who kill animals for the sake of it, and just leave the animals to rot. I also hate people who hunt endangered animals, or animals in general that there aren't so many of.

you mustn't forget that we're humans and we are predators. We've hunted ever since we set foot on this planet, and I don't see why people get so worked up over it.

... Just don't hunt other predators! There' no friggin need for that.

If animals weren't meant to be hunted they wouldn't be made out of food.

I'm surprised at the use of the "2 wrongs make a right" argument by the hunters- that killing their predators justified killing the herbivores.

My problem isn't so much with the actual hunting as with the thought behind it. It's barely ever out of respect or out of population control. Maybe it is with you but I'd wager you're in a very small minority there.

I'm to saying all slaughterhouse employees hate the job, nor am I saying slaughterhouses are humane (I've seen plenty of videos myself) but as MA testified the ones he knows do. Plus, it's not exactly easy to quit and get another job in the current social climate. Nor will it be with the overpopulation issues.

I wish to goodness that I could become a vegetarian but I like the taste of meat too much, regrettably. The killing of the animal bothers me a bit, but not as much as the method or motive. Hunters nearly never kill with the animal's intentions at heart. Slaughterhouses are rarely humane but hunting isn't always- traps for one thing, the fact that 1 shot doesn't always kill but instead severely injures for another. I can understand the hunting for food argument but as Havoc says- if you need the food just buy it from a store. If you can't afford the food then fair enough- but if you can't afford food but can afford a gun and bulelts something's sure gone screwy down the line.

I don't exactly agree with the other stuff Havoc said, but I will say this- we value human life above other lives because its our fellow species. There's humans who are the utter scum of the earth that we'd still put ahead of any animal. Am I saying every animal's life is equal to every human's life? No. Most humans, most people are decent. Most people's lives are more valuable than animal lives. But I wouldn't say every human.

Very aggressive, I dunno what's your problem matey but you can't possibly make everyone believe you're more right than any others, I simply gave my opinion. You don't like it? then you don't have to believe, but don't start calling me names.

I'm not saying hunting is good for the animal population just because I can carry a gun in the forest, I'm saying it because it's true. Predators aren't the only danger herbivores have to face, they can be dangerous to themselves, by depleting their food ressources. And they wouldn't notice they made their food become scarce. You obviously never hunted in your life so you think each time I went hunting, I had a big grin in my face, wishing a painful death to the deer in front of me. Well, for your information, that wasn't the case, I stayed stoic, aimed and gave it a quick death (it was a about 25 feet from me when it fell, he suffered for....5 seconds....). I think that's the best respect you can give to your prey: killing it in the less painful way as possible.

And I think hunting following the rules is some kind of respect, since you're basically killing only one or two a year. Wanna know what's worse than hunters? Poachers. why? Not only the kill animals, but they do it commercially, out of the laws of hunting. So yeah, I do think I have more respect for the animals even though I killed a deer. And the fun was not in the killing but in seeing it in its natural habitat with my own two eyes, something hunter-haters will never see (they'll see deers in a zoo or in Pennsylvania, but not in the forest).

I also buy meat in the grocery store, not like I got each week to get a few deers to have enough food for the week, I may be in Canada, doesn't mean in live in a shack in the woods. At the times I went hunting, I went for the fun of seeing animals in the wilderness, I didn't give a damn wether I killed one or not. If I got one, well, great, more food to stay healthy , if not, well at least I saw one.

And if I tried to go bare-handed, well, now I'm the one having no chance. Why don't you try it yourself if you think it's so fair? Anyway, hunting is a bit about strategy. you find a good spot, put some bait, and get a high position. you can hunt on the ground, too, it just requires more stealth (I've done that once).

I do get it that if you miss your shot, you might injure the animal, without killing it. that's what training is for, I never went hunting without practicing for a few days. I don't use traps, either, because I don't know shit about traps and like it has been said, it's just more painful for the prey. And I still think we're helping nature...a bit. I wouldn't mind be called a jackass if in every hunt I killed females and predators (the females could have babies waiting somewhere, who would die without her and predators are there to regulate the population), but I hunted only for bucks and now I'e stopped hunting althogetter but it still annoys me to see people calling hunters "assassins" and "heartless killers". Get a grip, hunting is not about quenching my taste for blood, it's about having some contact with nature and sometimes, coming back with more food is about the only motivation for that. It's just not the same as only buying packs of steak in the grocery, but hunter-haters will never understand that.


I'd simply say that if you eat meat there's two things you can do: Either leave the hunters alone or stop eating meat. Because if hunters are assassins, slaughterhouses employees are torturers. Maybe not all slaughterhouses are inhumane but still, the animals have the time to see what's gonna cause their death (even though they might not realise what those machines are), whereas the animals in the wild don't realise anything unless the bullet pierce their lungs. at least they are not anticipating their end, they don't get scared by whatever is in front of them and looks dangerous.

I hope this won't become a flamewar. If you hate hunters, Havoc, good for you, but don't start insulting anyone who thinks hunting is okay just because you think only your opinion is right.

I only read the first paragraph, but I'll tell you this: It's Havoc. He does that. You get used to it.

okay then Seikyo Jack, you say that you're a hunter. i used to be a hunter too, but not any more, so i can relate. but i disagree with you entirely. its odd because most of what you are saying isn't even true or doesn't make sense.

also, i don't want a load of shit, so if you don't want to know how animals die in various ways, don't read on.

i'm just going to point out all the things you failed to mention and don't actually seem to know about;

don't forget the, lets face it, pretty risky chance that you can miss your intended aim on the target and shoot it somewhere were it will escape, then slowly die. like the stomach? also, hunters are taught to aim for the easiest spot on their 'prey' that will most likely incapacitate the animal, therefore it is not always humane, depending on what animal you are hunting. and it goes without saying that it is also taught to aim for the largest part of certain animals if it is in the distance to avoid missing, going with the theory that if you injure it, it will be easier to track and kill.

on the other hand, the Knackerman will often kill the animal there and then on the spot at the farm it is from, using either a bolt gun, designed for culling farm livestock like Equine, Bovine, etc, or a 12 bore (at least) shotgun. i'm not going into the details unless you want me to, but the technique they use is more or less guaranteed to successfully cull the animal painlessly, quickly, humanely and efficiently. and if they use a shotgun they don't stand 10 foot away and aim, so there is no chance of missing.

but i say 'more or less guaranteed' because it would be foolish to say that it has a 100% cull success rate. now this is not due to the equipment used or the competence of the staff, but more to do with the animal suddenly moving and other small things. plus farm animals are usually docile, what with being bred in farms their whole lives. depends on the situation.

and thats just reminded me; Knackermen are not hired into this line of work unless they have owned a gun of their specification for a certain amount of time, have a spotless police record (seeing as they are waving a gun around in, what's essentially, a work place) and are a certain age. so no 'gung-ho' kids are going to be driving around with weapons doing the job. however, this is not the case with hunting.

in England you have to go through a lot of official stuff with the police, and need to put up with visits and so on. i don't know the deal where you live, but i don't believe you need to have so many years experience with firearms and be about 25-30 years old to be able to hunt. therefore it all depends on the hunter whether the animal will die humanely or not, if at all.

that was all to say; don't say that Slaughterhouses and the employees are not more humane than hunters out in the field, because i guarantee you, hunters fuck up a lot more in the long run than the former.

come on, you haven't really got a decent argument there. Slaughterhouses are a controlled environment where things are kept as calm as possible, for the employee's safety mainly. animals can sense when you are nervous, aggravated, calm, therefore will react appropriately. you dont want a 1500 kilo bull kicking off in a slaughterhouse with nothing but gates and such. it'll just smash through them. that should be enough excuse to disregard this rumour that slaughterhouses are manic bloodbaths where men run around with meat cleavers hacking away in a frenzy.

i acknowledge that there are slaughterhouses that are less humane and controlled as they are meant to be, and i'm afraid that's how it goes sometimes, which is a shitty excuse and is wrong. you'll always have some inspector that'll accept a few hundred quid so he can 'not see' what's really going on and report the place as being fine. then again you will always get the kind that wont accept such bribes, and do the right thing. but its almost the same thing with hunters not doing the correct procedures, apart from it can be made worse if they aren't competent, don't have the correct firearm/ammunition/scope for the selected animal, etc. the list is endless.

do you think i'm lying?

wake up.

since when do people feeling reluctant/remorseful about their job become totally incapacitated by it? only if it develops into something more serious or they quit their job will this make a 'lack of processed meat'. it may make them slightly less efficient, but that's beside the point.

so in other words, we killed all the predators so its alright to kill the herbivores now as they have no natural predators any more? twisted logic but, i suppose.

you're basing this whole 'they will starve if we don't kill them' theory on one very narrow time line you just came out with. other things would and could happen. plus, don't try to cover up the fact that its just to protect crops (which ironically means that you are actually killing them so they can't eat, not so they can) and prevent being overrun.

yeah. that's what Slaughterhouses do. but it doesn't help having the word 'slaughter' at the beginning, as it puts gruesome and violent pictures in your mind.

thanks for backing that up! oh, and do you think that happens legally? not in England, anyway. i don't know how it is in other countries. it most certainly does not happen in every Slaughterhouse.

i just remembered that this was about a man killing a baboon, as he was curious to feel what it would be like to kill a human.

shit.

EDIT: oh god this pisses me off.

do you work on a farm? do you work in a slaughterhouse? have you got to know the employees of a slaughterhouse?

it worries me that people as close-minded as you are carrying guns.

It is an ambition of mine to kill at least one animal that I intend to eat. Not out of any love of killing animals, you understand, but because I feel the need to intimately experience that part of the natural world if I want to eat meat. I don't expect it to be easy, but if I can't do it than I have no business eating them.

Insect don't count.

just swoop down and snatch a field mouse, BM.

i thought you'd always been doing that.

Well, I'm simply saying my opinion. I'm also sick of hearing shit about hunters.

As for me, I learned to aim at the lungs, it's the best balance between chance of hitting vs pain to the animal. Sure, I could end it quickly with a shot in the head. I could miss easily (even more than if I had aimed at the lungs) and maybe the deer would live with a missing eye for the rest of its life. Any hunter who doesn't shake some rust before hunting season is more likely to miss and thus, is a douche for not caring wether or not he could injure or maybe even cripple and animal forever.

In Quebec, everything related to hunting and firearms is watched and all. You have to follow a class on firearm security and you have to ask for a permit to posess and buy firearms. Of course, there will always be idiots breaking laws, it's impossible to have a perfect system, but most hunters (those I know, at least) will follow the rules and also practice before a hunt, so they won't injure an animal for nothing.

what I meant with the controlled environment and all is that, the animal can see death coming and cannot escape it. A bull is in the slaughterhouse. What then? Death assured.
In the forest, the deer doesn't have fences preventing it from escaping from whatever danger there is. there,s a difference between killing an animal in a controlled environment and killing one in its natural territory.

I keep my point about slaughterhouse employees getting another job. It's not easy getting another one but not impossible. I know that if I was working in a place I don't like and prevents me from doing my work well, I wouldn't hesitate quitting.

About the predator killing. Twisted logic? I don't see anything twisted in replacing carnivores that we killed. The balance gotta be kept somehow and slaughterhouses only takes cows and bulls, I never heard of a slaughterhouse taking deers and elks.

In my mind, I don,t hunt to protect crop. It's to be in nature and when killing a deer, it's regulating the population. In my opinion, it,s better than letting animals deplete their food ressources and having them looking in your trashcan each morning.

So, I guess in most slaughterhouses they do kill painlessly. I'm basing myself on a video I saw, I do have to admit I never visited one of these places and probably got fooled by a video, so I'm not gonna argue on this one.

You're right, I'm young and don't have as much hunting experience as my father have and probably never will, since I stopped for respect to my girlfriend. I just go with what I think is logical. I probably would hate hunters too, if I didn't eat meat but I wouldn't harass them like hell. I especially hated the way Havoc brought me his point. I understand he doesn't like hunting and all but does that mean it justifies insulting people? And so, he have no respect for hunters. So I guess each time I'll try to get my point he'll start insulting me because I think hunting is right? Yeah, great.

And yeah, I know the topic was about some douche shooting a baboon illegally and just for the fun of doing it like in the movies. I just find it normal that it would bring up stuff about hunting, wethere or not it was me bringing it up. The article was about animal killing, so I wouldn't have been surprised if someone else said anything about hunting.

'Nyway, I'm not looking to prove anything to anyone, if you don't approve hunting, good for you, but don't start calling us jackasses or heartless bastards. Death is a part of nature and the humans always hunted. the only thing that makes people say killing is wrong nowadays is because they can simply buy a steak in a grocery and not have to kill their own food source. Well, got news for these people: buying meat is not better than killing it. :P


EDIT: Bullet, I like your way of thinking.